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The problem with omniscient and omnibenevole-

Alex
Posts: 2,058
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7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Most likely not a new idea, but new for me.

God knows the choice we will ultimately make in our lives, whether it be going to heaven or going to hell.

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

God either is not omnibenevolent or does not exist.
----------------------------------------------------------

Back in my day i probably would have said something along the lines of "Well, we still have the free choice, he just happens to know what it's going to be" but i don't think that covers it. Thoughts?
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/1/2011 1:50:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM, Alex wrote:
Most likely not a new idea, but new for me.

God knows the choice we will ultimately make in our lives, whether it be going to heaven or going to hell.

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

God either is not omnibenevolent or does not exist.
----------------------------------------------------------

Back in my day i probably would have said something along the lines of "Well, we still have the free choice, he just happens to know what it's going to be" but i don't think that covers it. Thoughts?

God isn't omnibenevolent. That sort of thing is wishful thinking.

God is incapable of loving or hating. These are mental deficiencies that humans experience, not God. God is cold and efficient, like a machine.. except arguably sexier.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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7/1/2011 1:51:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM, Alex wrote:

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

The difference is in knowing vs. doing. Or to paraphrase C.S. Lewis on the matter, it's your fault if you go to hell. :P

Depends usually on whatever the advocated notion of hell is in regards to the omni good part. Separation version is the usual partner to the above.
Alex
Posts: 2,058
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7/1/2011 1:55:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:51:50 AM, Puck wrote:
At 7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM, Alex wrote:

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

The difference is in knowing vs. doing. Or to paraphrase C.S. Lewis on the matter, it's your fault if you go to hell. :P

Depends usually on whatever the advocated notion of hell is in regards to the omni good part. Separation version is the usual partner to the above.

And i'm aware of that argument, it's one i used against the argument from evil. It's just not convincing to me anymore :P
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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7/1/2011 2:02:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:55:18 AM, Alex wrote:
And i'm aware of that argument, it's one i used against the argument from evil. It's just not convincing to me anymore :P

Depends what your issue with it is I guess. One side you are perceived to destroy free will, the other falls back on hell simply meaning separation which leaves little room. It only really gets interesting when you stack arguments like these alongside other theodicies on separate issues to create coherent wholes. That's a totally different issue however.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/1/2011 2:16:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Free will is an illusion. Everything is deterministic, but chaotic.

Heaven and Hell are spiritual concepts that pertain to the war going on inside your own head. Those who sin live in hell, and they deserve it. Only when they accept responsibility will they be able to find heaven.. Which is right here on Earth. God is a God of the living, not the dead.

There is a part of you that is eternal though, but it isn't your personality. It is the momentum of the universe, that never ending reaction. While you are part of it, you can say that your impact will forever effect the universe.

However, if you are less egotistical, you realize that you yourself don't really impact anything, it is what makes you up that does. What makes you up is what makes everyone up. It is what makes everything up. It is the swirling innards of God. It's that one great cosmic spirit that can be summed up as "existence" or "actuality".

There is nothing supernatural or unnatural about this. God is just like, there man. God is pretty much everything. You are basically a molecule that makes up the fluid in a pimple residing in the armpit of God.

Course, this'll just sound like babble to anyone who doesn't take the time to get on the same page as me. I get off on it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/1/2011 10:21:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:50:19 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM, Alex wrote:
Most likely not a new idea, but new for me.

God knows the choice we will ultimately make in our lives, whether it be going to heaven or going to hell.

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

God either is not omnibenevolent or does not exist.
----------------------------------------------------------

Back in my day i probably would have said something along the lines of "Well, we still have the free choice, he just happens to know what it's going to be" but i don't think that covers it. Thoughts?


God isn't omnibenevolent. That sort of thing is wishful thinking.
Especially when he send a gigantic flood, of Biblical proportions, while providing only one man with an ark and a few other animals.

God is incapable of loving or hating. These are mental deficiencies that humans :experience, not God. God is cold and efficient, like a machine.. except arguably :sexier.

Sexier? Oh my, how do you?...
Sexier?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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7/1/2011 11:57:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM, Alex wrote:
Most likely not a new idea, but new for me.

God knows the choice we will ultimately make in our lives, whether it be going to heaven or going to hell.

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

God either is not omnibenevolent or does not exist.
----------------------------------------------------------

Back in my day i probably would have said something along the lines of "Well, we still have the free choice, he just happens to know what it's going to be" but i don't think that covers it. Thoughts?

Possibly - but it depends on ones view of what omniscience entails. WLC has some interesting arguments that would respond to this, although I'm not very sympathetic to them.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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7/1/2011 1:12:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 1:42:33 AM, Alex wrote:
Most likely not a new idea, but new for me.

God knows the choice we will ultimately make in our lives, whether it be going to heaven or going to hell.

He creates us knowing specifically we will be going to hell.

God either is not omnibenevolent or does not exist.
----------------------------------------------------------

Back in my day i probably would have said something along the lines of "Well, we still have the free choice, he just happens to know what it's going to be" but i don't think that covers it. Thoughts?

Could you elaborate on the last paragraph?
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/1/2011 2:11:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@ Alex

I am not very sure about the answer. I will try to explain with an example. If I am making a mistake, or I am not clear, please let me know ...

Suppose, I have planned a crime (which is also a sin) and right now I am going to execute it. Who is responsible for this? Me or God?

Everyone will blame me, if I carry it out successfully. If I am arrested, I will be punished. No one is going to blame God for the crime.

Let us ask this question other way. While I am going to commit the crime, can God prevent the crime?

Of course yes. In a billion billion ways. Come on, God can simply cause me to forget all about it ...

So does that mean God was responsible for the crime?

Not really. God gave me the power to choose. God decided to let me decide. The meaning of letting me decide is that I have the power to choose wrong. When I choose wrong there will be crime and sin. This was my decision and I am accountable for the decision. I cannot blame God for this.

Extend it a bit back. When I was planning the crime, God could have intervened and prevented me from thinking about it! That means, I would never have thought about the sin! However this would have intervened in my free will completely.

I hope you see, why evil and punishment are consequences of free will given by God. Evil is something that we choose for ourselves. Punishment is something that we invoke on ourselves. The beneficent and forgiving God is always ready to ignore the sins of those who turn to him for forgiveness. We should pray to God to forgive us, when we make mistakes.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.