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Question for Protestants?

christisking
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7/3/2011 11:02:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Having done a little bit of study on apologetics for the past several years, I am trying to find what compelling arguments there are for Protestants to continue to reject the Catholic Church as the one true Church established by Christ. So far, the strongest arguments I have heard against the Catholic Church have been mainly based on ignorance of Catholic teaching or misconceptions. I've read many compelling arguments for the Catholic Church, such as the biblical support for the Eucharist, and am still looking for a convincing Protestant response.

For the sake of this thread, I'm merely interested to see what most Protestants see as their most compelling arguments either supporting Protestantism as the form of Christianity established by Christ or disproving the Catholic Church as the one true church established by Christ. I look forward to see what people think. :)
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/4/2011 4:38:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am not a Protestant, but I do know that there are valid grounds to reject the authority of the Pope, because it is actually based on nothing what so ever. The religious councils that Catholics recognise as divinely inspired and which established the Church defined the Pope's role as a first among equals, not as God's regent.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/4/2011 5:16:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/3/2011 11:02:00 PM, christisking wrote:
Having done a little bit of study on apologetics for the past several years, I am trying to find what compelling arguments there are for Protestants to continue to reject the Catholic Church as the one true Church established by Christ. So far, the strongest arguments I have heard against the Catholic Church have been mainly based on ignorance of Catholic teaching or misconceptions. I've read many compelling arguments for the Catholic Church, such as the biblical support for the Eucharist, and am still looking for a convincing Protestant response.

For the sake of this thread, I'm merely interested to see what most Protestants see as their most compelling arguments either supporting Protestantism as the form of Christianity established by Christ or disproving the Catholic Church as the one true church established by Christ. I look forward to see what people think. :)

I go to ALL churches, including Catholic.. Jesus Christ only has ONE body; ONE church!

The reason there are denominations AT ALL is that the Catholic leaders did not stick to the word of God and so expelled those who did:

John 10:12
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.


The Catholic church still has some major problems, not least of which is giving ultimate authority to a man, the Pope:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


or praying to the 'virgin' Mary:

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


In the last days the denominations will fall away and we will have a unified, universal (catholic) Church:

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
The Cross.. the Cross.
christisking
Posts: 72
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7/4/2011 6:27:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 4:38:52 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I am not a Protestant, but I do know that there are valid grounds to reject the authority of the Pope, because it is actually based on nothing what so ever. The religious councils that Catholics recognise as divinely inspired and which established the Church defined the Pope's role as a first among equals, not as God's regent.

Can you give me a quote or a website with quotes from these councils which prove your point?
christisking
Posts: 72
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7/4/2011 6:40:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 5:16:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I go to ALL churches, including Catholic.. Jesus Christ only has ONE body; ONE church!

The reason there are denominations AT ALL is that the Catholic leaders did not stick to the word of God and so expelled those who did:

Really, do you have any sources which show that this happened in the early Church, or are you refering to the Protestant revolt?


John 10:12
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.


Christ's point here is that He is the true shepherd who never abandons his flock. He also tells us that those in authority, if they really want to do their job, they will also not abandon thier flocks. I'm not sure how this contradicts Catholic teachings since we believe that Christ is the head of the Church.


The Catholic church still has some major problems, not least of which is giving ultimate authority to a man, the Pope:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


We didn't give ultimate authority to a man, Christ did (Matthew 16:19). Also, his authority only goes so far as to define and explain the truths and Christian teachings which Christ gave us while on earth

or praying to the 'virgin' Mary:

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


Christ was perfect, so was beneath him to give insults. As a matter of fact, it was a great blessing for Mary (by either Protestant or Catholic standards) to be the mother of God, so she was 'blessed'. Christ knows and his mother knows that Christ is merely trying to make his point here that liniage and parenthood are not as important as following God's will.

In the last days the denominations will fall away and we will have a unified, universal (catholic) Church:

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


Why do you believe that this verse applies to the last days? Why couldn't this apply to the Church that he is about to institute when he sends the Holy Spirit?

Thank you for your response. To me, these arguments aren't that convincing, so I'm currious if you or anyone else has any more.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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7/4/2011 12:17:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My biggest issue with Catholocism is that there is so much pomp and ceremony.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." That verse seems like a really simple concept, but if I'm catholic, I have to go to confession regularly to confess my sins to another man who can't forgive me. All he can do is tell me to say some memorized prayers. I guess the bottom line for me is that there is way too much man made tradition that would seem to me to get in the way of a relationship with God. Jesus said that He is the way, and I don't see anywhere in the Bible where He gives that authority away, except to the Apostles.
christisking
Posts: 72
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7/4/2011 2:21:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 12:17:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
My biggest issue with Catholocism is that there is so much pomp and ceremony.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." That verse seems like a really simple concept, but if I'm catholic, I have to go to confession regularly to confess my sins to another man who can't forgive me. All he can do is tell me to say some memorized prayers. I guess the bottom line for me is that there is way too much man made tradition that would seem to me to get in the way of a relationship with God. Jesus said that He is the way, and I don't see anywhere in the Bible where He gives that authority away, except to the Apostles.

I have heard that this is intimidating to many non-Catholics, since the Catholic Church is very unique in the way that it uses 'pomp and ceremony' as you put it.

However, if you look at the Bible, you will find that God has a tendancy to like ceremony. Throughout the Old Testament you will find instances where God gives the Israelites different ceremonies to practice. The Pass Over for instances was full of recited prayers and ceremonious actions. In the book of Revelation you will find references to the angels using things like incense to praise God.
http://www.davidmacd.com...

Why does God seem to like ceremony so much? We are not angels. We are composed of both soul and body. God doesn't just want us to praise him with words and thoughts, but with our entire person. Catholic traditions give us something concrete to see and follow as we turn our hearts to God. Far from being distracting, I (and thousands of other Catholics) wouldn't have it any other way because of the solemness and beauty it gives to our worship of God.

As for confession, I agree that the priest cannot forgive sins of his own power. The thing is that Christ forgives men's sins through the priest. Similarly to what I just said, having a priest to physically stand as Christ's representative allows the confessor to physically hear Christ's words of forgiveness and be assured that his sins are forgiven. Having this sacrament makes it a bigger deal for a penitent to confess, so it becomes easier for him or her to make a more lasting resolution not to sin.

Why would Christ give temporary authority to the apostles and not have it be passed down?

Thanks for sharing your views, medic!
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/4/2011 2:37:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I respect the Catholic Church, and here is why.

They do everything in total opposition to what Jesus said, and by doing so, anyone who is actually serious about their religion and is honest will know to stay away.

The church is so off in terms of theology, that I'd actually entertain the idea that it is a conspiracy, and that the highest members of the church are aware of this. The Catholic Church is for children, schmucks, self righteous asshats, Christians who have never honestly read the bible, and other assortment of plastic people.

Pharisees, man.

I don't care to argue my point. If you've studied the New Testament with any sort of depth, this should be obvious.

If I were to go back to being a Christian though(I very well could, but I'm a total heretic, and my brand of Christianity hardly resembles the Christianity most people know.. It would be very misleading.), I'd probably be Catholic, if not just because I think I know what they are doing. I seriously think the Catholic Church is the way it is because it is meant to be revolted against.
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christisking
Posts: 72
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7/4/2011 3:48:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 2:37:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I respect the Catholic Church, and here is why.

They do everything in total opposition to what Jesus said, and by doing so, anyone who is actually serious about their religion and is honest will know to stay away.

The church is so off in terms of theology, that I'd actually entertain the idea that it is a conspiracy, and that the highest members of the church are aware of this. The Catholic Church is for children, schmucks, self righteous asshats, Christians who have never honestly read the bible, and other assortment of plastic people.

Pharisees, man.

I don't care to argue my point. If you've studied the New Testament with any sort of depth, this should be obvious.

If I were to go back to being a Christian though(I very well could, but I'm a total heretic, and my brand of Christianity hardly resembles the Christianity most people know.. It would be very misleading.), I'd probably be Catholic, if not just because I think I know what they are doing. I seriously think the Catholic Church is the way it is because it is meant to be revolted against.

I'm sorry you feel that way towards the Church. I would love to discuss any reasonable objections you have to the Catholic Church, but don't feel obliged.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/4/2011 3:53:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't care to argue my point. If you've studied the New Testament with any sort of depth, this should be obvious.:

Blindingly obvious, even!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
christisking
Posts: 72
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7/4/2011 10:05:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Why is that? The good thief's repentance on the cross would amount to what the Catholic Church calls a baptism of desire. Baptism removes all of one's sins. Thus, the good thief would have no need to stop in purgatory since no only had he gained this baptism of desire, but Christ himself seems to have indirectly forgiven him. Thus, this is totally consistent with the Church's teaching on Purgatory.
christisking
Posts: 72
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7/4/2011 10:08:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.

I'm not sure that I see your argument? When a man dies, his soul goes to heaven (or hell) but his body stays on earth until the general resurection. Christ is God, so there is no reason he could not tell the good thief what the results of his iminent judgement would be. Did I miss something?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/5/2011 5:07:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 10:08:11 PM, christisking wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.

I'm not sure that I see your argument? When a man dies, his soul goes to heaven (or hell) but his body stays on earth until the general resurection. Christ is God, so there is no reason he could not tell the good thief what the results of his iminent judgement would be. Did I miss something?

Oh man... you Christians really need to get together and work out a belief system. Every single one of you appears to have a different concept of God, the afterlife, sin etc etc... I can't keep up with it!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/5/2011 5:19:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 6:40:21 AM, christisking wrote:
At 7/4/2011 5:16:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I go to ALL churches, including Catholic.. Jesus Christ only has ONE body; ONE church!

The reason there are denominations AT ALL is that the Catholic leaders did not stick to the word of God and so expelled those who did:

Really, do you have any sources which show that this happened in the early Church, or are you refering to the Protestant revolt?

I only have to look at the result; the many different denominations.. the unscriptural 'traditions of men' (religion!) that permeate the Catholic church..

John 10:12
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.


Christ's point here is that He is the true shepherd who never abandons his flock. He also tells us that those in authority, if they really want to do their job, they will also not abandon thier flocks. I'm not sure how this contradicts Catholic teachings since we believe that Christ is the head of the Church.

But HOW does one abandon or not abandon? by STICKING to God's Word in spite of attack.. the catholic church (who I lover and pray for) have NOT stuck to it..

The Catholic church still has some major problems, not least of which is giving ultimate authority to a man, the Pope:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


We didn't give ultimate authority to a man, Christ did (Matthew 16:19). Also, his authority only goes so far as to define and explain the truths and Christian teachings which Christ gave us while on earth

You call him Father! (Pope)

or praying to the 'virgin' Mary:

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


Christ was perfect, so was beneath him to give insults. As a matter of fact, it was a great blessing for Mary (by either Protestant or Catholic standards) to be the mother of God, so she was 'blessed'. Christ knows and his mother knows that Christ is merely trying to make his point here that liniage and parenthood are not as important as following God's will.

You pray to a dead woman! (who wasn't a virgin for long!)

In the last days the denominations will fall away and we will have a unified, universal (catholic) Church:

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


Why do you believe that this verse applies to the last days? Why couldn't this apply to the Church that he is about to institute when he sends the Holy Spirit?

Thank you for your response. To me, these arguments aren't that convincing, so I'm currious if you or anyone else has any more.

Because there hasn't been any unity YET!
The Cross.. the Cross.
christisking
Posts: 72
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7/5/2011 7:04:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 5:19:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/4/2011 6:40:21 AM, christisking wrote:
At 7/4/2011 5:16:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I go to ALL churches, including Catholic.. Jesus Christ only has ONE body; ONE church!

The reason there are denominations AT ALL is that the Catholic leaders did not stick to the word of God and so expelled those who did:

Really, do you have any sources which show that this happened in the early Church, or are you refering to the Protestant revolt?

I only have to look at the result; the many different denominations.. the unscriptural 'traditions of men' (religion!) that permeate the Catholic church..

The existence of multiple denominations does not prove that the Church is inconsistent with Scripture. It merely shows that people were unwilling to accept the Church's authority.

John 10:12
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.


Christ's point here is that He is the true shepherd who never abandons his flock. He also tells us that those in authority, if they really want to do their job, they will also not abandon thier flocks. I'm not sure how this contradicts Catholic teachings since we believe that Christ is the head of the Church.

But HOW does one abandon or not abandon? by STICKING to God's Word in spite of attack.. the catholic church (who I lover and pray for) have NOT stuck to it..

The Catholic Church has always embraced Sacred Scripture and the Church has never contradicted the Bible in her teachings. Certain members may have broken faith with God's Word, but the Church as a whole has remained consitent.

The Catholic church still has some major problems, not least of which is giving ultimate authority to a man, the Pope:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


We didn't give ultimate authority to a man, Christ did (Matthew 16:19). Also, his authority only goes so far as to define and explain the truths and Christian teachings which Christ gave us while on earth

You call him Father! (Pope)

I also call my dad 'father' as do many other Protestants. Christ doesn't have a problem with this title, but only an issue with us giving UNDUE respect to human persons at a cost to our respect of God.

or praying to the 'virgin' Mary:

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


Christ was perfect, so was beneath him to give insults. As a matter of fact, it was a great blessing for Mary (by either Protestant or Catholic standards) to be the mother of God, so she was 'blessed'. Christ knows and his mother knows that Christ is merely trying to make his point here that liniage and parenthood are not as important as following God's will.

You pray to a dead woman! (who wasn't a virgin for long!)

We don't disapear when we die, we go on to LIVE in heaven. What is the issue with asking these heavenly saints to intercede to God for us? Mary was a virgin as the Church teaches and the Bible suggests.

In the last days the denominations will fall away and we will have a unified, universal (catholic) Church:

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


Why do you believe that this verse applies to the last days? Why couldn't this apply to the Church that he is about to institute when he sends the Holy Spirit?

Thank you for your response. To me, these arguments aren't that convincing, so I'm currious if you or anyone else has any more.

Because there hasn't been any unity YET!

There was unity in the begining, and had been unity for over a thousand years until scisms and the Protestant Revolution created disunity. However, the Catholic Church has remained intact and strong through all of this, which suggests to me that Christ's prayer has indeed been heard. It would make sense if the Church achieved complete unity before the end, but this verse in no way disproves the Catholic Church's genuineness.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/5/2011 7:18:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 7:04:53 AM, christisking wrote:
At 7/5/2011 5:19:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/4/2011 6:40:21 AM, christisking wrote:
At 7/4/2011 5:16:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I go to ALL churches, including Catholic.. Jesus Christ only has ONE body; ONE church!

The reason there are denominations AT ALL is that the Catholic leaders did not stick to the word of God and so expelled those who did:

Really, do you have any sources which show that this happened in the early Church, or are you refering to the Protestant revolt?

I only have to look at the result; the many different denominations.. the unscriptural 'traditions of men' (religion!) that permeate the Catholic church..

The existence of multiple denominations does not prove that the Church is inconsistent with Scripture. It merely shows that people were unwilling to accept the Church's authority.

John 10:12
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.


Christ's point here is that He is the true shepherd who never abandons his flock. He also tells us that those in authority, if they really want to do their job, they will also not abandon thier flocks. I'm not sure how this contradicts Catholic teachings since we believe that Christ is the head of the Church.

But HOW does one abandon or not abandon? by STICKING to God's Word in spite of attack.. the catholic church (who I lover and pray for) have NOT stuck to it..

The Catholic Church has always embraced Sacred Scripture and the Church has never contradicted the Bible in her teachings. Certain members may have broken faith with God's Word, but the Church as a whole has remained consitent.

The Catholic church still has some major problems, not least of which is giving ultimate authority to a man, the Pope:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


We didn't give ultimate authority to a man, Christ did (Matthew 16:19). Also, his authority only goes so far as to define and explain the truths and Christian teachings which Christ gave us while on earth

You call him Father! (Pope)

I also call my dad 'father' as do many other Protestants. Christ doesn't have a problem with this title, but only an issue with us giving UNDUE respect to human persons at a cost to our respect of God.

or praying to the 'virgin' Mary:

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


Christ was perfect, so was beneath him to give insults. As a matter of fact, it was a great blessing for Mary (by either Protestant or Catholic standards) to be the mother of God, so she was 'blessed'. Christ knows and his mother knows that Christ is merely trying to make his point here that liniage and parenthood are not as important as following God's will.

You pray to a dead woman! (who wasn't a virgin for long!)

We don't disapear when we die, we go on to LIVE in heaven. What is the issue with asking these heavenly saints to intercede to God for us? Mary was a virgin as the Church teaches and the Bible suggests.

In the last days the denominations will fall away and we will have a unified, universal (catholic) Church:

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


Why do you believe that this verse applies to the last days? Why couldn't this apply to the Church that he is about to institute when he sends the Holy Spirit?

Thank you for your response. To me, these arguments aren't that convincing, so I'm currious if you or anyone else has any more.

Because there hasn't been any unity YET!

There was unity in the begining, and had been unity for over a thousand years until scisms and the Protestant Revolution created disunity. However, the Catholic Church has remained intact and strong through all of this, which suggests to me that Christ's prayer has indeed been heard. It would make sense if the Church achieved complete unity before the end, but this verse in no way disproves the Catholic Church's genuineness.

There may have been unity in the 1st and 2nd centuries, I stress may... but after Christianity has been utterly disunited.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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7/5/2011 9:20:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fathers

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Has St. Paul sinned?

St. Paul had begotten the Christains of his time. Just as Priests do now. Unlike Protastants the Catholic Church is a family, literally. We have one Father creator of us all, He gave us our very life. We have biological fathers that gave us our flesh. And we are begotten by our priestly fathers to instruct us on the Word. St. Paul understood this specific realationship and how it is intended to be. Why can't you understand it?

Catholics believe God is the God if the living, not the dead. There are no dead that died in friendship to Christ. Mary, Paul,John and Moses are no more dead then you or I. Only a heathen could believe otherwise.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/5/2011 9:36:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 10:05:34 PM, christisking wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Why is that? The good thief's repentance on the cross would amount to what the Catholic Church calls a baptism of desire. Baptism removes all of one's sins. Thus, the good thief would have no need to stop in purgatory since no only had he gained this baptism of desire, but Christ himself seems to have indirectly forgiven him. Thus, this is totally consistent with the Church's teaching on Purgatory.

Why would the thief not need to go to purgatory to cleanse his sins? I'm not sure I get this. He was a pagan sinner his whole life what makes him unique from everyone else that his sins would not need to be cleansed.?

I'm not sure I've heard of the "baptism of desire" before, but where in the whole Bible is it mentioned, and why would the thief get it?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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7/5/2011 9:40:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible?
Isn't the idea that confessing to a priest is necessary for god to forgive your sins contradictory with the idea of personal relationship with god?
phantom
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7/5/2011 9:41:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.

Why is that? I'm not sure I understand your argument. If you mean because Jesus can't have gone to hell for three days because he said he would be in paradise that night, that doesn't invalidate it. Only some people believe he went to hell before being resurrected.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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7/5/2011 10:52:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 9:40:05 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible?
Isn't the idea that confessing to a priest is necessary for god to forgive your sins contradictory with the idea of personal relationship with god?

Have you read the parable about the man that owed the king a million bucks? The king (God) forgives the debt. The man turns right around and doesn't forgive a 50 dollar debt from a brother. The king finds out and sends him to be tortured until the debt is paid. He doesn't debt him to the place of gnashing teeth (hell) forever, just till he has paid.

Jesus came to teach us how God deals with us. Forgive because you are forgiven, don't forgive and you will be judged by the same standards by which you judge others.

Ever heard of Jesus telling the apostles that what ever sins they retained will be retained in heaven?

For me, confessing my sins in that matter only draws me closer to Jesus and the family he wants me to have.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/5/2011 11:03:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm Catholic, and have a list of complaints. I find the dabbling of idolatry very hard to take at times, and the adoration of Mary can be a bit much.

However, i am one of the few people who find confession a remarkable tool in finding the truth about oneself, and your relationship with God. A good confessor is able to help you walk through some of the darkest parts of your soul and help you make peace with yourself and Christ. It never feels like an obligation to do so, not at all, but rather i feel fortunate to have the resource.
jharry
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7/5/2011 11:24:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 9:41:17 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.

Why is that? I'm not sure I understand your argument. If you mean because Jesus can't have gone to hell for three days because he said he would be in paradise that night, that doesn't invalidate it. Only some people believe he went to hell before being resurrected.

What do you think Jesus did in the cross?

I can't remember if your an athiest or not. If you are do you know what most Christians believe Jesus did on that cross.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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7/5/2011 11:27:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 11:03:22 AM, innomen wrote:
I'm Catholic, and have a list of complaints. I find the dabbling of idolatry very hard to take at times, and the adoration of Mary can be a bit much.

I agree to a point. But I dont think the Church is to blame for that. Not that I have seen anyway. I have seen clear teaching about this.

However, i am one of the few people who find confession a remarkable tool in finding the truth about oneself, and your relationship with God. A good confessor is able to help you walk through some of the darkest parts of your soul and help you make peace with yourself and Christ. It never feels like an obligation to do so, not at all, but rather i feel fortunate to have the resource.

Amen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/5/2011 11:47:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 11:24:06 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/5/2011 9:41:17 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.

Why is that? I'm not sure I understand your argument. If you mean because Jesus can't have gone to hell for three days because he said he would be in paradise that night, that doesn't invalidate it. Only some people believe he went to hell before being resurrected.

What do you think Jesus did in the cross?

I can't remember if your an athiest or not. If you are do you know what most Christians believe Jesus did on that cross.

Are you talking to me?

I'm Christian.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
BennyW
Posts: 698
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7/5/2011 11:55:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 10:52:42 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/5/2011 9:40:05 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible?
Isn't the idea that confessing to a priest is necessary for god to forgive your sins contradictory with the idea of personal relationship with god?

Have you read the parable about the man that owed the king a million bucks? The king (God) forgives the debt. The man turns right around and doesn't forgive a 50 dollar debt from a brother. The king finds out and sends him to be tortured until the debt is paid. He doesn't debt him to the place of gnashing teeth (hell) forever, just till he has paid.

That doesn't mention purgatory, in fact every reference to purgatory us extra biblical. It started when the church initiated indulgences as a way to make the Vatican rich. The verse you list above has to be taken in the proper context and it is a stretch to claim it is about purgatory.
Jesus came to teach us how God deals with us. Forgive because you are forgiven, don't forgive and you will be judged by the same standards by which you judge others.

That does not show confession to a priest o be necessary. In fact it seems to point more to asking for forgiveness directly from the person you have wronged.
Ever heard of Jesus telling the apostles that what ever sins they retained will be retained in heaven?

For me, confessing my sins in that matter only draws me closer to Jesus and the family he wants me to have.

I think my above comment applies here as well

Also to add my own.
They claim support for the Pope by claiming that when Jesus was talking to Peter and said "on this rock I build my church" it means that Peter is to be the base of the church. The problem with this is the word for rock that is Peter's name and the word for rock in this sentence, were two different words in the original language. Also, although it is rue hat the angle said Mary was blessed this did not make her have any power over Jesus, otherwise she herself wold be a God and hat is heretical. Also, the idea that she was without sin is anti-Biblical as the only person without sin was Jesus. Also, she didn't remain a virgin, she did have other children, it refers to Jesus' brothers, and no, it is not because they didn't have a word for cousin otherwise they could have used the same word that was used to describe the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
jharry
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7/5/2011 12:03:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/5/2011 11:47:32 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/5/2011 11:24:06 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/5/2011 9:41:17 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:38:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/4/2011 4:16:26 PM, phantom wrote:
Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

"Truly truly I say to you, tonight we will be together in paradise." (something like anyways).

Doesn't this prove purgatory is false?

Not just that... it also invalidates the ressurection and judgement of mankind.

Why is that? I'm not sure I understand your argument. If you mean because Jesus can't have gone to hell for three days because he said he would be in paradise that night, that doesn't invalidate it. Only some people believe he went to hell before being resurrected.

What do you think Jesus did in the cross?

I can't remember if your an athiest or not. If you are do you know what most Christians believe Jesus did on that cross.

Are you talking to me?

I'm Christian.

Cool, what did Jesus do on that cross?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/5/2011 12:22:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Most of the other posts are interpretive issues with Scripture.

I would like to start by stating for Cerebral and others that the Church disagrees about very little in the Majority Position.

Of the 2.5-3 Billion Christians in the world
1.5 are Catholic
500 Million are Eastern Orthodox (the churches descending from other patriarchs besides Peter)

Then you have Anglican/Arminian wich make up another 500 million roughly.

That leaves around 300-500 million of all opposing viewpoints from a truly protestant perspective.

Additionally, in Scripture Jesus states "the Kingdom of Heaven is like a tree with many branches..."

He predicted that indeed the Church would have many denominations and there would be evil birds that would roost in those branches.

The Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican/Arminian agree on nearly 97% of all doctrines.

The farthest in disagreement would be the minority view of presbyterian denominations and subsets (Ignoring heretical denominations)

They would be in roughly 70% agreement (mine personal calculation)

I will start with the Supremacy of Peter.
To be clear I do not deny the supremacy of the Patriarch. I wish to point out the issues with the Church of Rome claiming supremacy over the other partriarchs in the name of Peter.

Again some more facts:
Prior to the Orthodox schism where Rome excommunicated all of the other patriarch's in 1054, each partriarch held supremacy over his own church.

In, 1965 the excommunication was rescinded and the Orthodox Church is no longer considered schismatics.

My issue with the supremacy of the Catholic Pope is not over his supremacy over his congregation but the claim of supremacy over the whole of the Church in the entire world.

Prior to the schism of 1054 noone interpretated the Pope as supreme over the world. Every description of the Pope being called the Peter and the like is easily explained by the fact the Pope was indeed called the Peter but such a concept was never taken to mean that the Pope Held authority over the other patriarch's.

As of 1965 the rescinding of the excommunication means what? He was wrong to excommunicate the rest of the known Church? Especially during a time when Satan was aggressively attacking the Orthodox Churches for already nearly four centuries through Islam? Does this mean Satan did not bother the Church working for him? His biggest bird so to speak?

Without a Historical interpretation of a Supreme Pontiff over all Patriarch's that was commonly shared by "All Patriarch's" such an interpretation seems invalid.

Any feedback?