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God and Logic

Charles0103
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7/10/2011 12:59:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have a question about the nature of God and logic.

Can God do the logically impossible (like making two plus two equal five) like Aquinas believes?

Or does God have to stay within the realm of logic?

I look forward to your responses.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/10/2011 1:03:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Supernatural is like saying "greater than god". It is an absurdity.

God operates on a completely natural and logical level. God does not bend or break the rules, God at most lawyers around them.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
tkubok
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7/10/2011 2:14:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.

But couldn't god be able to provide some mathematical proof that would prove that 2 + 2 =5?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/10/2011 2:18:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:14:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.

But couldn't god be able to provide some mathematical proof that would prove that 2 + 2 =5?

That's the thing, all He needs to do is make it seem logical. He has the power to make 2 + 2 logically seem equal too 5. Doesn't mean it is.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/10/2011 2:19:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God can not be supernatural. To say so is blasphemy.

Also patently retarded.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tkubok
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7/10/2011 2:22:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:18:18 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:14:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.

But couldn't god be able to provide some mathematical proof that would prove that 2 + 2 =5?

That's the thing, all He needs to do is make it seem logical. He has the power to make 2 + 2 logically seem equal too 5. Doesn't mean it is.

That's along the lines of "gods word is law", like if god suddenly said that rape is morally acceptible, we, or atleast theists would have to accept it as morally good.

What I am asking for, however, is whether god would be able to prove and convince us that, for example, rape is morally good and acceptible.

If god is all powerful, then surely he could come with an irrefutable argument, that would convince even rape victims, that rape is good, right?
Pozzo
Posts: 139
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7/10/2011 2:26:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:22:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
That's along the lines of "gods word is law", like if god suddenly said that rape is morally acceptible, we, or atleast theists would have to accept it as morally good.

What I am asking for, however, is whether god would be able to prove and convince us that, for example, rape is morally good and acceptible.

If god is all powerful, then surely he could come with an irrefutable argument, that would convince even rape victims, that rape is good, right?

It would be morally good. If God is all-powerful, it doesn't matter what you believe. He is right. Proof doesn't really seem relevant, but if you must... Yes. The definition of all-powerful dictates that an all-powerful God can do whatever He likes.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/10/2011 2:31:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 12:59:38 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
I have a question about the nature of God and logic.

Can God do the logically impossible (like making two plus two equal five) like Aquinas believes?


No, and I'm fairly certain Aquinas didn't believe that either.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/10/2011 2:31:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:22:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:18:18 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:14:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.

But couldn't god be able to provide some mathematical proof that would prove that 2 + 2 =5?

That's the thing, all He needs to do is make it seem logical. He has the power to make 2 + 2 logically seem equal too 5. Doesn't mean it is.

That's along the lines of "gods word is law", like if god suddenly said that rape is morally acceptible, we, or atleast theists would have to accept it as morally good.

What I am asking for, however, is whether god would be able to prove and convince us that, for example, rape is morally good and acceptible.

If god is all powerful, then surely he could come with an irrefutable argument, that would convince even rape victims, that rape is good, right?

Yes.

Whether He would do it or not is a different matter though...
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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7/10/2011 2:42:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 12:59:38 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
I have a question about the nature of God and logic.

Can God do the logically impossible (like making two plus two equal five) like Aquinas believes?

Not true. Aquinas believed that God acts according to his nature, and since God's nature is logical God cannot do anything that violates logic.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/10/2011 3:29:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.

You sound like an agnostic
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/10/2011 3:45:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 3:29:20 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.

You sound like an agnostic
Not at all. I'm saying that the fact that we cannot imagine certain things doesn't mean that they are impossible in a whole different realm.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/10/2011 4:02:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 1:03:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Supernatural is like saying "greater than god". It is an absurdity.

Who said anything about "supernatural"? lol. Looks like a strawman to me.

God operates on a completely natural and logical level.

So you claim.

God does not bend or break the rules, God at most lawyers around them.

Is that so? I didn't realize you were privy to such an up, close, and personal look at God.

At 7/10/2011 2:19:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God can not be supernatural.

1. God is usually by definition supernatural.

2. What's your justification for this statement.

To say so is blasphemy.

Blasphemy doesn't make sense in relation to the impersonal God that you propose.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/10/2011 4:03:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 3:45:36 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:29:20 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.

You sound like an agnostic
Not at all. I'm saying that the fact that we cannot imagine certain things doesn't mean that they are impossible in a whole different realm.

"We can't imagine them, but they might be there" is the biggest agnostic argument.
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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7/10/2011 4:18:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:42:32 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/10/2011 12:59:38 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
I have a question about the nature of God and logic.

Can God do the logically impossible (like making two plus two equal five) like Aquinas believes?

Not true. Aquinas believed that God acts according to his nature, and since God's nature is logical God cannot do anything that violates logic.

Oh ok. I guess I got him mixed up with someone else. I was reading an article about the paradox of the stone and I could have sworn it was him that believes that God can do the logically impossible. Oh well, that's what I get for not double checking.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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7/10/2011 5:47:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 4:18:24 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Oh ok. I guess I got him mixed up with someone else. I was reading an article about the paradox of the stone and I could have sworn it was him that believes that God can do the logically impossible. Oh well, that's what I get for not double checking.

I think Spinoza believed that God could violate logic. I'm not completely certain on my ancient theologians though. :)
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/10/2011 6:31:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 4:03:00 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:45:36 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:29:20 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.

You sound like an agnostic
Not at all. I'm saying that the fact that we cannot imagine certain things doesn't mean that they are impossible in a whole different realm.

"We can't imagine them, but they might be there" is the biggest agnostic argument.
It hasn't got anything to do with the existence of God.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/10/2011 6:44:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:31:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:22:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:18:18 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:14:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.

But couldn't god be able to provide some mathematical proof that would prove that 2 + 2 =5?

That's the thing, all He needs to do is make it seem logical. He has the power to make 2 + 2 logically seem equal too 5. Doesn't mean it is.

That's along the lines of "gods word is law", like if god suddenly said that rape is morally acceptible, we, or atleast theists would have to accept it as morally good.

What I am asking for, however, is whether god would be able to prove and convince us that, for example, rape is morally good and acceptible.

If god is all powerful, then surely he could come with an irrefutable argument, that would convince even rape victims, that rape is good, right?

Yes.

Whether He would do it or not is a different matter though...

But doesnt that mean that there exists an argument that would prove that Rape is morally good?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/10/2011 6:58:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 4:02:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/10/2011 1:03:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Supernatural is like saying "greater than god". It is an absurdity.

Who said anything about "supernatural"? lol. Looks like a strawman to me.


If something defies logic, it is supernatural.

God operates on a completely natural and logical level.

So you claim.


Yes, I so do. I'm also right. I claim that as well.

God does not bend or break the rules, God at most lawyers around them.

Is that so? I didn't realize you were privy to such an up, close, and personal look at God.


It is the truth.

At 7/10/2011 2:19:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God can not be supernatural.

1. God is usually by definition supernatural.


Ignorant people tend to make God supernatural.

2. What's your justification for this statement.


The supernatural does not exist. Even if something appears to be supernatural, it would have to be natural. Supernatural is by definition impossible. Something can not break the laws of nature, it is absurd.

To say so is blasphemy.

Blasphemy doesn't make sense in relation to the impersonal God that you propose.

Only if you have ideas in your head about burning witches and the like.

There is nothing greater than God. Claiming something as being supernatural is like saying "greater than god". This is blasphemy. The God that exists as actuality does not necessarily punish against blasphemy.. Though, if you become aware of a blasphemy, and make the choice to delude yourself despite this, you will face great mental turmoil.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/10/2011 7:07:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 6:44:09 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:31:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:22:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:18:18 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:14:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/10/2011 1:18:36 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I would have to disagree with Cosmic. If you believe that god is supernatural, then he is inherently not subject to the laws of nature. Now the "two plus two equals five" bit is a little abstract and tough to argue since two and five are just words that we use to describe specific quantities. I suppose god could say, "Your definitions of two and five are wrong", but that wouldn't really be bending the rules of nature, just english.

But couldn't god be able to provide some mathematical proof that would prove that 2 + 2 =5?

That's the thing, all He needs to do is make it seem logical. He has the power to make 2 + 2 logically seem equal too 5. Doesn't mean it is.

That's along the lines of "gods word is law", like if god suddenly said that rape is morally acceptible, we, or atleast theists would have to accept it as morally good.

What I am asking for, however, is whether god would be able to prove and convince us that, for example, rape is morally good and acceptible.

If god is all powerful, then surely he could come with an irrefutable argument, that would convince even rape victims, that rape is good, right?

Yes.

Whether He would do it or not is a different matter though...

But doesnt that mean that there exists an argument that would prove that Rape is morally good?

No. Prove =/= irrefutable. (In Gods case at least)

God is all powerful. Even if rape is wrong, God could convince everyone that it is right. (Of course there is no possibility of Him doing that).

But of course if you want too put semantics into it though, no argument exists that can't be refuted. Weak refutations are still refutations. But we're not talking in that sense.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/10/2011 7:57:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 6:31:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/10/2011 4:03:00 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:45:36 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:29:20 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.

You sound like an agnostic
Not at all. I'm saying that the fact that we cannot imagine certain things doesn't mean that they are impossible in a whole different realm.

"We can't imagine them, but they might be there" is the biggest agnostic argument.
It hasn't got anything to do with the existence of God.

Explain?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/10/2011 8:55:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 7:57:34 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 6:31:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/10/2011 4:03:00 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:45:36 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/10/2011 3:29:20 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/10/2011 2:49:17 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't really see why in a whole other realm governed by totally other natural laws cannot make the impossible possible after all. Our limited imagination doesn't have to limit God's powers.

You sound like an agnostic
Not at all. I'm saying that the fact that we cannot imagine certain things doesn't mean that they are impossible in a whole different realm.

"We can't imagine them, but they might be there" is the biggest agnostic argument.
It hasn't got anything to do with the existence of God.

Explain?
Not understanding God fully is natural, and that doesn't mean you doubt God. It simply means you admit you don't have the capability to understand everything about God. It's stupid to think anyone can do that. We can't even understand our own minds fully. Why try to understand the highest conceivable being fully.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/10/2011 9:00:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 6:58:13 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/10/2011 4:02:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Who said anything about "supernatural"? lol. Looks like a strawman to me.


If something defies logic, it is supernatural.

False. Square circles are supernatural? Logical fallacies are supernatural?

God operates on a completely natural and logical level.

So you claim.


Yes, I so do. I'm also right. I claim that as well.

You've haven't demonstrated that to be the case nor have you given good reason to believe it.

God does not bend or break the rules, God at most lawyers around them.

Is that so? I didn't realize you were privy to such an up, close, and personal look at God.


It is the truth.

Bare assertion.

At 7/10/2011 2:19:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God can not be supernatural.

1. God is usually by definition supernatural.


Ignorant people tend to make God supernatural.

That's not an argument. That's an ad hominem. Most dictionary definitions define God as a supernatural being.

2. What's your justification for this statement.


The supernatural does not exist. Even if something appears to be supernatural, it would have to be natural. Supernatural is by definition impossible. Something can not break the laws of nature, it is absurd.

Ok, so then why don't you just conclude that God doesn't exist rather than redefine God so that his definition doesn't contradict reality.

To say so is blasphemy.

Blasphemy doesn't make sense in relation to the impersonal God that you propose.

Only if you have ideas in your head about burning witches and the like.

What? Blasphemy occurs when you speak ill of a Supreme Being. I said nothing about burning witches.

There is nothing greater than God. Claiming something as being supernatural is like saying "greater than god".

That's only because you redefined God as a natural being. So it's your own definition that makes such a claim seem absurd.

This is blasphemy.

It's not really blasphemy so much as a statement that you view to be false.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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7/10/2011 9:04:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I see what Alfonzo is saying, but because God is omnipotent, he should be able to get around the laws of logic.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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7/10/2011 9:04:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 5:47:02 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/10/2011 4:18:24 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Oh ok. I guess I got him mixed up with someone else. I was reading an article about the paradox of the stone and I could have sworn it was him that believes that God can do the logically impossible. Oh well, that's what I get for not double checking.

I think Spinoza believed that God could violate logic. I'm not completely certain on my ancient theologians though. :)

That might have been who I was thinking of. Thanks for telling me so I don't look like an idiot in future discussions.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/10/2011 9:43:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 9:04:00 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
I see what Alfonzo is saying, but because God is omnipotent, he should be able to get around the laws of logic.

God doesn't operate like that. You might as well be saying that God uses cheat codes when playing this video game. God doesn't suck that hard.

Course, if that is the God you want to believe in, go ahead.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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7/10/2011 9:46:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 9:04:00 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
I see what Alfonzo is saying, but because God is omnipotent, he should be able to get around the laws of logic.

I still don't understand the appeal of this position...
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/10/2011 10:07:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 9:00:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/10/2011 6:58:13 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/10/2011 4:02:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Who said anything about "supernatural"? lol. Looks like a strawman to me.


If something defies logic, it is supernatural.

False. Square circles are supernatural? Logical fallacies are supernatural?


Sure, I'd classify a square circle as supernatural.

God operates on a completely natural and logical level.

So you claim.


Yes, I so do. I'm also right. I claim that as well.

You've haven't demonstrated that to be the case nor have you given good reason to believe it.


It is self evident. If you have a problem with what I'm saying, it is either because your head is clouded with too many preconceptions to understand what I'm saying, you believe in the supernatural, or you are in extreme denial of how the world works.

God does not bend or break the rules, God at most lawyers around them.

Is that so? I didn't realize you were privy to such an up, close, and personal look at God.


It is the truth.

Bare assertion.


If you are claiming that natural law can be broken, I would make the assertion that the burden of proof is on you to show me this.

You can not break natural law.

At 7/10/2011 2:19:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God can not be supernatural.

1. God is usually by definition supernatural.


Ignorant people tend to make God supernatural.

That's not an argument. That's an ad hominem. Most dictionary definitions define God as a supernatural being.


There are plenty of understandings of God that are not supernatural. God is not supernatural. There is absolutely no reason to believe that God is supernatural.

This isn't an ad hominem argument, this is a statement of fact. Ignorant people paint God as being some kind of supernatural being that loves them and gives a fvck about their insignificant little existence. God works completely within the realms of nature.

The people who worship a supernatural diety do little more than make an idol out of fantasy.

2. What's your justification for this statement.


The supernatural does not exist. Even if something appears to be supernatural, it would have to be natural. Supernatural is by definition impossible. Something can not break the laws of nature, it is absurd.

Ok, so then why don't you just conclude that God doesn't exist rather than redefine God so that his definition doesn't contradict reality.


Because I am of the opinion that the concept of God was not originally meant to describe something otherworldly and non-existent. I believe that it was later hijacked by people who didn't fully understand those before who understood. I believe that it can be a meaningful concept.

God is Actuality. When the limitations of primitive language force you to describe things in metaphor and other forms of poetic language, there is always going to be a chance that something is going to get lost in interpretation.

To say so is blasphemy.

Blasphemy doesn't make sense in relation to the impersonal God that you propose.

Only if you have ideas in your head about burning witches and the like.

What? Blasphemy occurs when you speak ill of a Supreme Being. I said nothing about burning witches.

There is nothing greater than God. Claiming something as being supernatural is like saying "greater than god".

That's only because you redefined God as a natural being. So it's your own definition that makes such a claim seem absurd.

This is blasphemy.

It's not really blasphemy so much as a statement that you view to be false.

Not only is it false, but it is insulting to the God that exists in actuality.

You can accept God for what God is, so you worship human imaginings over it? The God that exists in actuality will lead you to truth and happiness. The god of human imaginings will only cause you to suffer in your doubt. The greater your doubt, and the more you persist in delusion, the more your cognitive dissonances will rend you to pieces for your lack of integrity.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp