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Faith without works and proof is false faith.

GreatestIam
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7/13/2011 10:24:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.

Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven.
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.

The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it's theology and being saved on works.

Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required.

Without works, will Christianity die?
Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough?

What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man's faith because they know for certain of God's reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.

Regards
DL
ReformedArsenal
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7/13/2011 10:36:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 10:24:11 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.

Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven.
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.

The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it's theology and being saved on works.

Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required.

Without works, will Christianity die?
Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough?

What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man's faith because they know for certain of God's reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.

Regards
DL

The issue with James is a translation issue, not a theological issue. The semantic field of "Pisteuo" or "Pistis" includes everything from "Intellectual Acknowledgement" to "Complete Trust In." We see from James other use that he is talking about the kind of faith that is simply the intellectual acknowledgement of a fact, THAT kind of faith is what the demons have and THAT kind of faith is not salvific.

Also, I think you characterize "Faith Alone" theology. Sola Fides does not say that good works and obedience are not a part of faith and salvation. Rather it argues that it is not what PRODUCES salvation, but instead is PRODUCED by salvation. Just as a Tree produces Fruit, Salvation produces Works.
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GreatestIam
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7/13/2011 12:18:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 10:36:12 AM, ReformedArsenal wrote:

The issue with James is a translation issue, not a theological issue. The semantic field of "Pisteuo" or "Pistis" includes everything from "Intellectual Acknowledgement" to "Complete Trust In." We see from James other use that he is talking about the kind of faith that is simply the intellectual acknowledgement of a fact, THAT kind of faith is what the demons have and THAT kind of faith is not salvific.

Also, I think you characterize "Faith Alone" theology. Sola Fides does not say that good works and obedience are not a part of faith and salvation. Rather it argues that it is not what PRODUCES salvation, but instead is PRODUCED by salvation. Just as a Tree produces Fruit, Salvation produces Works.

So you have to have a non-intellectual faith that leads to salvation before your works are worthy.
Hmm.
That would mean that good people with good works would not be saved without a belief in Jesus or God.

Your God is wasteful of good people.
How strange to send good people to hell.

Regards
DL
ReformedArsenal
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7/13/2011 12:30:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 12:18:49 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/13/2011 10:36:12 AM, ReformedArsenal wrote:

The issue with James is a translation issue, not a theological issue. The semantic field of "Pisteuo" or "Pistis" includes everything from "Intellectual Acknowledgement" to "Complete Trust In." We see from James other use that he is talking about the kind of faith that is simply the intellectual acknowledgement of a fact, THAT kind of faith is what the demons have and THAT kind of faith is not salvific.

Also, I think you characterize "Faith Alone" theology. Sola Fides does not say that good works and obedience are not a part of faith and salvation. Rather it argues that it is not what PRODUCES salvation, but instead is PRODUCED by salvation. Just as a Tree produces Fruit, Salvation produces Works.

So you have to have a non-intellectual faith that leads to salvation before your works are worthy.
Hmm.
That would mean that good people with good works would not be saved without a belief in Jesus or God.

Your God is wasteful of good people.
How strange to send good people to hell.

Regards
DL

I never said that intellectual acknowledgement was not a part of the equation. What I said it that a faith that ONLY is intellectual acknowledgement is not enough.

Furthermore, I don't believe that truly good works in the sense that the Bible defines them are possible without faith in Christ. I don't believe that good people exist apart from faith in Christ, all persons are selfish and sinful.
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GreatestIam
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7/13/2011 1:13:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 12:30:41 PM, ReformedArsenal wrote:

I never said that intellectual acknowledgement was not a part of the equation. What I said it that a faith that ONLY is intellectual acknowledgement is not enough.

Furthermore, I don't believe that truly good works in the sense that the Bible defines them are possible without faith in Christ. I don't believe that good people exist apart from faith in Christ, all persons are selfish and sinful.

Perhaps you should stop projecting what you are on others.
Your head must be quite swelled to condemn the 3/4 of the world that are of other faiths.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 10:24:11 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.

Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven.
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.

The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it's theology and being saved on works.

Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required.

Without works, will Christianity die?
Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough?

What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man's faith because they know for certain of God's reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.

Regards
DL

This is my understanding on it.

St. Paul was talking about the works of the Law. He mentioned it many times.

Someone took "faith alone" twisted it and started spreading it. St. James was correcting the false teaching (that some anti christ) started. St. James wasn't correcting St. Paul.

And "works" is not earning our way into heaven. It is a responce to being given much. Jesus says he will cast the goats out of His site, they lacked the "works". It very simple.

Christianity is dying. It was told some 2000 years ago. It will dwindle down to only a remnant of humanity. It's not big and shocking news or anything. And in the end it will be sought out to be destroyed, just as it always has been.

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GreatestIam
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7/14/2011 10:40:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM, jharry wrote:

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.

If so, then they are following their God given natures.
Right?

if God did not want us to follow our natures, he would not have created them that way.

Sounds like you have little faith in God's creative powers.
I do not blame you.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/14/2011 10:54:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/14/2011 10:40:35 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM, jharry wrote:

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.

If so, then they are following their God given natures.
Right?

Nope. That would be our selfish desires. That isn't given by God.

if God did not want us to follow our natures, he would not have created them that way.

He wants us to follow him. And in following Him we shed off those selfish desires.

Sounds like you have little faith in God's creative powers.
I do not blame you.

Sounds like you dont know what your talking about.
Obvious is obvious.

And why didn't you respond to the rest of the post? Instead you focused on one statement I made. Was the other difficult?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GreatestIam
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7/14/2011 2:15:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/14/2011 10:54:57 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:40:35 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM, jharry wrote:

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.

If so, then they are following their God given natures.
Right?

Nope. That would be our selfish desires. That isn't given by God.

if God did not want us to follow our natures, he would not have created them that way.

He wants us to follow him. And in following Him we shed off those selfish desires.

Sounds like you have little faith in God's creative powers.
I do not blame you.

Sounds like you dont know what your talking about.
Obvious is obvious.

And why didn't you respond to the rest of the post? Instead you focused on one statement I made. Was the other difficult?

I see that you want to give God credit for all that is good in our natures and man credit for all that is evil in us yet scripture says that all concepts come from God.

Let me know if you ever decide to give either man or God credit for all within our natures.
Then we can talk from a level playing field.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/14/2011 2:22:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/14/2011 2:15:04 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:54:57 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:40:35 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM, jharry wrote:

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.

If so, then they are following their God given natures.
Right?

Nope. That would be our selfish desires. That isn't given by God.

if God did not want us to follow our natures, he would not have created them that way.

He wants us to follow him. And in following Him we shed off those selfish desires.

Sounds like you have little faith in God's creative powers.
I do not blame you.

Sounds like you dont know what your talking about.
Obvious is obvious.

And why didn't you respond to the rest of the post? Instead you focused on one statement I made. Was the other difficult?

I see that you want to give God credit for all that is good in our natures and man credit for all that is evil in us yet scripture says that all concepts come from God.

Let me know if you ever decide to give either man or God credit for all within our natures.
Then we can talk from a level playing field.

Regards
DL

What is our "nature"?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GreatestIam
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7/14/2011 2:40:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/14/2011 2:22:37 PM, jharry wrote:
At 7/14/2011 2:15:04 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:54:57 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:40:35 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM, jharry wrote:

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.

If so, then they are following their God given natures.
Right?

Nope. That would be our selfish desires. That isn't given by God.

if God did not want us to follow our natures, he would not have created them that way.

He wants us to follow him. And in following Him we shed off those selfish desires.

Sounds like you have little faith in God's creative powers.
I do not blame you.

Sounds like you dont know what your talking about.
Obvious is obvious.

And why didn't you respond to the rest of the post? Instead you focused on one statement I made. Was the other difficult?

I see that you want to give God credit for all that is good in our natures and man credit for all that is evil in us yet scripture says that all concepts come from God.

Let me know if you ever decide to give either man or God credit for all within our natures.
Then we can talk from a level playing field.

Regards
DL

What is our "nature"?

FMPOV, exactly what nature created.
FYPOV, exactly what God created.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/14/2011 5:01:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/14/2011 2:40:34 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/14/2011 2:22:37 PM, jharry wrote:
At 7/14/2011 2:15:04 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:54:57 AM, jharry wrote:
At 7/14/2011 10:40:35 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/13/2011 7:27:22 PM, jharry wrote:

The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail.

If so, then they are following their God given natures.
Right?

Nope. That would be our selfish desires. That isn't given by God.

if God did not want us to follow our natures, he would not have created them that way.

He wants us to follow him. And in following Him we shed off those selfish desires.

Sounds like you have little faith in God's creative powers.
I do not blame you.

Sounds like you dont know what your talking about.
Obvious is obvious.

And why didn't you respond to the rest of the post? Instead you focused on one statement I made. Was the other difficult?

I see that you want to give God credit for all that is good in our natures and man credit for all that is evil in us yet scripture says that all concepts come from God.

Let me know if you ever decide to give either man or God credit for all within our natures.
Then we can talk from a level playing field.

Regards
DL

What is our "nature"?

FMPOV, exactly what nature created.
FYPOV, exactly what God created.

Regards
DL

I have no idea what that means. Sorry.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GreatestIam
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7/15/2011 7:42:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It means that things are as they should be and our natures are the best that nature or God can produce.

As to the components of our nature, a dictionary and library is where you can start to learn of it.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/15/2011 8:42:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/15/2011 7:42:30 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
It means that things are as they should be and our natures are the best that nature or God can produce.

As to the components of our nature, a dictionary and library is where you can start to learn of it.

Regards
DL

Where do you get the concept that God gave us every aspect of our nature? I haven't seen that.

But I have seen this.

2 Timothy 1:7
7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

This is why I asked you about our nature. What is given? What is learned? What do we actually receive when conceived?

According to this verse we didnt receive a fearful nature from God.

It would seem we were given a blank slate. The ability to learn and grow.

It would seem that trying to determine that we are given a nature then there would be alternative. We couldn't change or we would all react the same in any given situation. But we don't. Unless we were all given different natures, but then there would be no chance to change.

The spirit of fear is a destructive thing. One could contribute some if the greatest horrors of our time to fear. The Third Riech rose to power due to fear. It was possibly for Jews to be persecuted because of fear.

According to scripture we were not given fear by God. Satan is the one who spreads fear in our hearts so he can do his work.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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7/15/2011 8:44:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm assuming you don't want to discuss Faith and Works. So I guess that means you concede to my reasoning?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GreatestIam
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7/15/2011 9:30:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/15/2011 8:44:35 AM, jharry wrote:
I'm assuming you don't want to discuss Faith and Works. So I guess that means you concede to my reasoning?

Get serious.

You say I do not want to discuss faith and works yet your other post speaks of our natures.

I give nature credit for our initial natures. Not some imaginary God.
We are all born with the same basic instincts and fear is a rather good part of that nature. It is there to enhance survival with caution.
It, like all of our instincts have served us well.

What is your position. Are we created by nature or some God?

Regards
DL

As to
jharry
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7/15/2011 10:23:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/15/2011 9:30:02 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 7/15/2011 8:44:35 AM, jharry wrote:
I'm assuming you don't want to discuss Faith and Works. So I guess that means you concede to my reasoning?

Get serious.

Huh?

You say I do not want to discuss faith and works yet your other post speaks of our natures.

In my first post I replied to your original post. I replied to the faith and works and told you why I believed The Church would shrink to a remnant of what it once was.

You seemed to ignore my entire response and them shifted into this nature business. I assume you concede to my reasoning on Faith and Works. You didn't dispute it.

I give nature credit for our initial natures. Not some imaginary God.
We are all born with the same basic instincts and fear is a rather good part of that nature. It is there to enhance survival with caution.

That's nice. But you didn't give any reasoning except for "I give credit". You made the claim that scriptures depict God giving us our nature. I disagreed and gave you some examples for why I'm right. You have done nothing but give your opinion.
It, like all of our instincts have served us well.

Being wary of a situation or event is not the same as fear. Not as it is expressed in scriptures.

What is your position. Are we created by nature or some God?

My profile speaks for itself. Pleas don't yell me you are going to devolve this conversion with a bunch of red herrings.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GreatestIam
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7/15/2011 1:34:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You want the long way I see. Ok.

"St. Paul was talking about the works of the Law. He mentioned it many times."

And what law was he referring to?
Likely the Jewish laws.

--------------------------------------------

"Someone took "faith alone" twisted it and started spreading it. St. James was correcting the false teaching (that some anti Christ) started. St. James wasn't correcting St. Paul."

Who twisted it and why is it in Paul's work if the church did not want it there?

-------------------------------------------------

"And "works" is not earning our way into heaven. It is a response to being given much. Jesus says he will cast the goats out of His site, they lacked the "works". It very simple."

If works is a response then it comes automatically with faith. Action, reaction. No works = no heaven.

----------------------------------------------------

"Given much."

Given what? What does your faith give you other than belief in the unseen and unknowable, fantasy, miracles and magic?

Jesus likely did not exist as anything other than an archetype. The bible says he said things yet there is no historical record other than scriptures that say he ever was.

------------------------------------------------------

"Christianity is dying. It was told some 2000 years ago. It will dwindle down to only a remnant of humanity. It's not big and shocking news or anything. And in the end it will be sought out to be destroyed, just as it always has been."

Speculation on 2000 year old B S that experts do not read literally.

Good if it dies though. It is an immoral theology and man has moved on from it's tyrannical genocidal maniac.

--------------------------------------------------------

"The hearts of the people will wax cold and selfishness will prevail."

You believe that God is their creator and if so then they will do as programmed.
Do not give me a free will B S answer because god's----do things my way or burn forever in in no way free will. It is a threat an coercion.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nope. That would be our selfish desires. That isn't given by God."

Is God not the creator of all that is?
Scripture says he is yet you give man creative powers. Rather generous of you

---------------------------------------------------

"He wants us to follow him. And in following Him we shed off those selfish desires."

Scripture contradicts itself here as well.
It does tell us to follow Jesus but it also shows that the moment A & E did emulate God, he through a sissy fit and cursed the whole world. They have become as God's knowing good and evil. If that is not following God's example then what is?

As to following Jesus exactly, no thanks. I do not want to be a self aggrandizing suicide victim. That is quite selfish

------------------------------------------------

My words,
"FMPOV, exactly what nature created.
FYPOV, exactly what God created."

Yours,
"I have no idea what that means. Sorry."

Who created you, God or nature?

-------------------------------------------------

"Where do you get the concept that God gave us every aspect of our nature? I haven't seen that."

If God created you then he must have created all of what you were and consequently all that you will be. Have you read the story of Esau.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

"2 Timothy 1:7
7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline."

If so, then why does he hate Esau even as a baby?

-----------------------------------------------

" This is why I asked you about our nature. What is given? What is learned? What do we actually receive when conceived?"

Like all other animals, all that we need to survive. Those are called instincts.

------------------------------------------------

"According to this verse we didn't receive a fearful nature from God."

It lists something given. It does not say it is the complete list.
If you want to give man creative powers then you put us in God's class and ignore scriptures that say he creates all concepts.

---------------------------------------------------

"It would seem we were given a blank slate. The ability to learn and grow."

Does this baby look like it has a blank slate and if not, as is obvious, who taught it to chose good if not it's instincts?

http://edmonton.ctv.ca...

-------------------------------------------

"It would seem that trying to determine that we are given a nature then there would be alternative."

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

-----------------------------------------------

"We couldn't change or we would all react the same in any given situation."

We are all subject to aberrant conditioning and will react as taught to on issues of choice.
On issues where choice is hindered, I think we all act the same way. I know that if you place your hand in fire it will burn. So will mine and our instincts tell us both to pull it out of the flames.

--------------------------------------

"But we don't. Unless we were all given different natures, but then there would be no chance to change."

I repeat. Aberrant conditioning.

Do you think you can make a basic change to your nature or are you forced to follow it?
Can you go from being a hetero to a Gay for instance or are you stuck where you are?

---------------------------------------

"The spirit of fear is a destructive thing."

Not if you are thinking of jumping off a cliff.

------------------------------------------

"One could contribute some if the greatest horrors of our time to fear."

Again, I have no idea what you are saying here.

----------------------------------------

" The Third Reich rose to power due to fear."

I do not agree.
That indicates that all nations are born the same way.
I would say that the hate of Jews is what gave Hitler his power.
Let's let this die though. Way too far off topic.

------------------------------------------

"It was possibly for Jews to be persecuted because of fear."

More likely greed. They were, after all, the money lenders.

--------------------------------------------

" According to scripture we were not given fear by God."

As above, God created all concepts so you better re-read your bible or quote where it is said that man created the concept of fear.

-----------------------------------------

"Satan is the one who spreads fear in our hearts so he can do his work."

Satan, as shown in Eden and in Job are under God's orders.

--------------------------------------

Speaking of nature.
"That's nice. But you didn't give any reasoning except for "I give credit"."

I do not need to if we are to be on a level playing field unless you want to start showing your reasoning, other than hear say, as to God getting any credit for the things you attribute to him.

------------------------------------

"You made the claim that scriptures depict God giving us our nature. I disagreed and gave you some examples for why I'm right. You have done nothing but give your opinion."

You are right if God only created half of you and your nature and you somehow created the other half.

------------------------------------

"Being wary of a situation or event is not the same as fear. Not as it is expressed in scriptures."

They are born from the same root and are just varying degrees of the same instinct.
If not then show the two sources.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/16/2011 3:13:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/15/2011 1:34:44 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

And what law was he referring to?
Likely the Jewish laws.
Yep

Who twisted it and why is it in Paul's work if the church did not want it there?

The people that St. Paul was addressing.

There is nothing wrong with St. Paul's work. People twisted it to mean something it doesn't. Faith Alone.

If works is a response then it comes automatically with faith. Action, reaction. No works = no heaven.

It doesn't come automatically.

Given what? What does your faith give you other than belief in the unseen and unknowable, fantasy, miracles and magic?

Salvation.

You believe that God is their creator and if so then they will do as programmed.

That is an assertion by you and I disagree that we are programmed to do anything except what we want. If your going to make assertions please back them up

Do not give me a free will B S answer because god's----do things my way or burn forever in in no way free will. It is a threat an coercion.

If people go to Hell then there wasn't much force used and people freely choose it.

Is God not the creator of all that is?

Yes. But not my thoughts or desires. Those are mine and mine alone.

Scripture says he is yet you give man creative powers. Rather generous of you

Yes, I'm the creator of my own thoughts and desires.

Scripture contradicts itself here as well.
It does tell us to follow Jesus but it also shows that the moment A & E did emulate God, he through a sissy fit and cursed the whole world. They have become as God's knowing good and evil. If that is not following God's example then what is?

At no point did Jesus ever tell us to be "God". Jesus was getting us out of the mess we are in due to trying to be gods.

As to following Jesus exactly, no thanks. I do not want to be a self aggrandizing suicide victim. That is quite selfish

Who created you, God or nature?

What does this question have to do with your OP or the conversation you started about nature? Nothing. You used scriptures as reference to your assertion that God gave us all these destructive ways. I disagreed and quoted scripture. Now yo0u want to throw in a red herring? Fine.

God.

If God created you then he must have created all of what you were and consequently all that you will be. Have you read the story of Esau.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

You take this way out of context. What is written is dealing with the promise. Not about God forcing people to do things.

If so, then why does he hate Esau even as a baby?

He knew what Esau would do in his life. That was a prophecy.

Like all other animals, all that we need to survive. Those are called instincts.

But we do things outside our instincts. That is what separates from animals.

It lists something given. It does not say it is the complete list.

It is proof that God didn't give us fear. I'm glad you agree. If He didn't give us fear why do you say He gave us others? Because you want to isn't a good enough answer.
Please provide the verse that explains that God makes us evil.

If you want to give man creative powers then you put us in God's class and ignore scriptures that say he creates all concepts.

We do have creative powers. Our thoughts and out desires. Those are ours alone. God made us to have that ability but doesn't force us to be things we are not.

Does this baby look like it has a blank slate and if not, as is obvious, who taught it to chose good if not it's instincts?

God gave us the a nature that is able to Love and Learn. What we do with it is up to us.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

If God gave me the nature of fear then I would always be fearful. It couldn't/wouldn't change. Like St. Peter being afraid at first and then going on to be martyred for Christ. If it was God given as you say we could never change.

We are all subject to aberrant conditioning and will react as taught to on issues of choice.

No. If God gives us a nature as you have said then we couldn't react any other way then what our nature is.

On issues where choice is hindered, I think we all act the same way. I know that if you place your hand in fire it will burn. So will mine and our instincts tell us both to pull it out of the flames.

That is pain that causes that, not nature.

I repeat. Aberrant conditioning.

Do you think you can make a basic change to your nature or are you forced to follow it?

I can change it because I allowed it in the first place.

Can you go from being a hetero to a Gay for instance or are you stuck where you are?

I have no idea, I'm not gay.

Not if you are thinking of jumping off a cliff.

No that is common sense and a desire to live. Being afraid is something totally different.

" The Third Reich rose to power due to fear."

I do not agree.
That indicates that all nations are born the same way.

The Third Reich isn't a nation, it was a government in Germany.

I would say that the hate of Jews is what gave Hitler his power.

Germany was in financial ruins. Hitler blamed the Jews. The people of Germany feared the Jews destroying their country.

As above, God created all concepts so you better re-read your bible or quote where it is said that man created the concept of fear.

As above, we create those concepts. If it wasn't given to us by God (that I have proven) then it came from us.

Satan, as shown in Eden and in Job are under God's orders.

Again, what Satan says is a matter of free will. In Eden he was driven out along with Adam and Eve for disobeying God. Satan was just as free to tempt Eve as Eve was free to believe the lies. Again, Satan could do nothing against Job on his own.

But one thing Satan is allowed to do is lie and tempt because these fall under free will.

I do not need to if we are to be on a level playing field unless you want to start showing your reasoning, other than hear say, as to God getting any credit for the things you attribute to him.

You designed the "playing field" when you said it was scriptural that God gave us our destructive nature. Now you want to change it because you can't back up your assertions.

"You made the claim that scriptures depict God giving us our nature. I disagreed and gave you some examples for why I'm right. You have done nothing but give your opinion."

You are right if God only created half of you and your nature and you somehow created the other half.

I create my nature with my thoughts and desires. That is why it is able to change. God designed a basic program. Love and Learn. Both is done within our soul and minds. If we reject love and learn what we want based on the rejection then our fate and our character is in our control.

"Being wary of a situation or event is not the same as fear. Not as it

I guess you ran out of characters.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
DATCMOTO
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7/19/2011 4:56:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/13/2011 10:24:11 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.

Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven.
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.

The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it's theology and being saved on works.

Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required.

Without works, will Christianity die?
Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough?

What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man's faith because they know for certain of God's reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.

Regards
DL

You SEEK contradictions that you may CONTINUE in your sin: and.. a MIRACLE; you FIND them.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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7/28/2011 12:18:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
JH
"If people go to Hell then there wasn't much force used and people freely choose it."

"Yes. But not my thoughts or desires. Those are mine and mine alone."

These tell me all I need to know.

Only the insane would choose hell and a good God would cure the insane.
Not torture them without purpose.
Remember that humans punish with a purpose.
Pray for guidance.

What a game for your God to play!
Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering.
Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over.
And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss.
Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
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7/30/2011 4:31:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/28/2011 12:18:26 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
JH
"If people go to Hell then there wasn't much force used and people freely choose it."

"Yes. But not my thoughts or desires. Those are mine and mine alone."

These tell me all I need to know.

Only the insane would choose hell and a good God would cure the insane.
Not torture them without purpose.
Remember that humans punish with a purpose.
Pray for guidance.

What a game for your God to play!
Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering.
Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over.
And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss.
Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.

Regards
DL

Heaven and hell is before you ALL the time EVERY day; they are in the LITTLE THINGS in life.. all the little secret choices we make to conceal or reveal, to bless or to curse.. there's nothing insane about ignoring your conscience; if we couldn't then we would not have free will.. and free will God prizes above all else; hence HELL.

Mark 4:30-32
The Parable of the Mustard Seed
30 Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? 31 It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. 32 Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade."
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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7/31/2011 1:40:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
LOL.

So you see God saying that we have free will and also see him creating an immoral construct like hell for any that use that free will to do anything other than what he orders.

Pathetic.

You know what you can do with God's idea of free will.

Regards
DL
jharry
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7/31/2011 8:45:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/28/2011 12:18:26 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
JH
"If people go to Hell then there wasn't much force used and people freely choose it."

"Yes. But not my thoughts or desires. Those are mine and mine alone."

These tell me all I need to know.

Lol, you start this thread with some faith and works bashing and then swap to this? Ok, whatever. I'll play along.

Only the insane would choose hell and a good God would cure the insane.

If some one is truly insane then they can't willfully deny God or sin. The insanity will not hold them from seeing God.

Plenty of sane people willfully deny God. I think R_R had a quote about having to over come God if he ever finds out He exsists. That is a choice, not force.

Not torture them without purpose.

He doesn't, Hell is for those that deny God and willfully seek to go against Him.

Remember that humans punish with a purpose.

Yes they do. Where do you think prisons came from? When a person can't function in society they have to go somewhere. The same goes for Heaven.

Pray for guidance.

I do, have you considered taking your own advice?


What a game for your God to play!

Lol, that is an irrelevant statement seeing that you can't back it up. But I know why you are forced to say it. ;)

Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering.

The place for suffering is for those that chose it. You don't have to go there if you don't want.

Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over.

How does that have anything to do with anything?

And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss.

He doesn't decide that, we do

Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.

That is why we have prisons. It is the responsible and just thing to do.

I guess you have no intention of responding to the 8000 character response I replied?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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8/1/2011 9:09:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/1/2011 9:05:37 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Which post was that?
I did not see it.

I hope it has more than your last.

Regards
DL

Second page, ninth post.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
DATCMOTO
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8/2/2011 4:30:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/31/2011 1:40:30 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
LOL.

So you see God saying that we have free will and also see him creating an immoral construct like hell for any that use that free will to do anything other than what he orders.

Pathetic.

You know what you can do with God's idea of free will.

Regards
DL

HOW could we have free will if there were NOT hell?

HOW could we choose an eternity without God if there were NO place without God?

THAT is hell; the absence of God.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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8/2/2011 10:12:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 4:30:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/31/2011 1:40:30 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
LOL.

So you see God saying that we have free will and also see him creating an immoral construct like hell for any that use that free will to do anything other than what he orders.

Pathetic.

You know what you can do with God's idea of free will.

Regards
DL

HOW could we have free will if there were NOT hell?

HOW could we choose an eternity without God if there were NO place without God?

THAT is hell; the absence of God.

And for all we can see, there is no God so hell must be everywhere.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/2/2011 10:17:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/1/2011 9:09:43 AM, jharry wrote:
At 8/1/2011 9:05:37 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Which post was that?
I did not see it.

I hope it has more than your last.

Regards
DL

Second page, ninth post.

Just too much B S for me I guess.

If you have any specific questions or comments that are longer than one word go nowhere answers, let me know.

Regards
DL
jharry
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8/2/2011 3:22:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:17:22 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/1/2011 9:09:43 AM, jharry wrote:
At 8/1/2011 9:05:37 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Which post was that?
I did not see it.

I hope it has more than your last.

Regards
DL

Second page, ninth post.

Just too much B S for me I guess.

If you have any specific questions or comments that are longer than one word go nowhere answers, let me know.


Lol, you know that isn't saying anything right?
Regards
DL

Here a little recap.

The short version-I have replied to every assertion you have made and you can't reply. St best you just say my replies are stupid so your not answering them.

Long version-

Faith and Works a consistent and logical according to scripture.

God didn't give us a nature to sun so we can't blame it on Him.

God doesn't force us to do anything against our will.

Now, you can simply go back over my past few posts and see where I back those claims up and where you didn't reply to any of them. Or I can repeat it all again.

You can throw another 8000 character post at me but I will reply. You can brush it off as stupidity and claim it's not worth your time. That's up to you.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen