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Is There an Unforgivable Sin?

BillyJean
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7/20/2011 4:28:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is there any sin so unforgivable that in order to do it, one must already be beyond saving? Jesus says that any sin can be confessed and one can be saved, but is there anything done that in doing say, that person is already too far gone? Cases like genocide or a lifetime of serial murders, rapes, etc. that go unpunished come to my mind.
Sloppy Joes. Slop. Sloppy Joes.
freedomsquared
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7/20/2011 4:31:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you take the commonly accepted interpretation of the Bible, then no sin is unforgivable. However, people who commit genocides and other such atrocities are probably already too far gone morally and mentally to ever sincerely repent.
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/20/2011 4:41:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jesus said that one can blaspheme the Father and the Son and be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus there is no forgiveness for anyone who "denies the Holy Spirit." Of course, what exactly that means is ambiguous and subject to interpretation. What is the Holy Spirit and how can you deny it?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/20/2011 5:05:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The holy spirit is the spirit that leads into all truth.

If you are intellectually dishonest, you are blaspheming the spirit that leads into all truth.

Hell is reserved for those people, and they deserve it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
MarquisX
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7/20/2011 5:53:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think the whole forgiveness thing only works if you truly feel what you've done. The deepest type of remorse that tears at your psyche. It's not like, kill a hooker, say you're sorry, then kill another one again.
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Ore_Ele
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7/20/2011 5:57:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
technically, suicide. Because you can only ask for forgiveness after you've done something. And after you commit suicide, you are unable to ask for forgiveness.
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freedomsquared
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7/20/2011 6:04:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 5:53:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
I think the whole forgiveness thing only works if you truly feel what you've done. The deepest type of remorse that tears at your psyche. It's not like, kill a hooker, say you're sorry, then kill another one again.

I completely agree with that.
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
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FREEDO
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7/20/2011 6:11:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 4:41:27 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Jesus said that one can blaspheme the Father and the Son and be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus there is no forgiveness for anyone who "denies the Holy Spirit." Of course, what exactly that means is ambiguous and subject to interpretation. What is the Holy Spirit and how can you deny it?

I knew that verse but it completely passed over me that he said you could blaspheme the Father and Son. Does that mean an Atheist could still receive the holy spirit? Whoa.
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Ore_Ele
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7/20/2011 6:21:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 5:53:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
I think the whole forgiveness thing only works if you truly feel what you've done. The deepest type of remorse that tears at your psyche. It's not like, kill a hooker, say you're sorry, then kill another one again.

STOP RUINING MY AFTER LIFE!!!
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CosmicAlfonzo
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7/20/2011 6:25:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 6:11:48 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/20/2011 4:41:27 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Jesus said that one can blaspheme the Father and the Son and be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus there is no forgiveness for anyone who "denies the Holy Spirit." Of course, what exactly that means is ambiguous and subject to interpretation. What is the Holy Spirit and how can you deny it?

I knew that verse but it completely passed over me that he said you could blaspheme the Father and Son. Does that mean an Atheist could still receive the holy spirit? Whoa.

This is what I've been trying to tell people for a while now.

We are justified by faith(what we truly believe, not this type of lying to yourself that a lot of stupid theists tend to advocate), not obedience.

The holy spirit is a spirit of intellectual integrity. If you are willfully ignorant, and attempt to force yourself into believing something, you are not guided by the holy spirit, and your demons will tear your mind to pieces.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/20/2011 6:36:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 5:53:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
I think the whole forgiveness thing only works if you truly feel what you've done. The deepest type of remorse that tears at your psyche. It's not like, kill a hooker, say you're sorry, then kill another one again.:

It doesn't say remorse is a requirement.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/20/2011 6:38:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 6:11:48 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/20/2011 4:41:27 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Jesus said that one can blaspheme the Father and the Son and be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus there is no forgiveness for anyone who "denies the Holy Spirit." Of course, what exactly that means is ambiguous and subject to interpretation. What is the Holy Spirit and how can you deny it?

I knew that verse but it completely passed over me that he said you could blaspheme the Father and Son. Does that mean an Atheist could still receive the holy spirit? Whoa.:

Presumably, yeah. The real mindfuck here is that if you're a Trinitarian, isn't the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the same thing? If so, blaspheming one is blaspheming them all!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/20/2011 6:40:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is what I've been trying to tell people for a while now.

We are justified by faith(what we truly believe, not this type of lying to yourself that a lot of stupid theists tend to advocate), not obedience.

The holy spirit is a spirit of intellectual integrity. If you are willfully ignorant, and attempt to force yourself into believing something, you are not guided by the holy spirit, and your demons will tear your mind to pieces.:

That insinuates that there is an objective truth, and that said objective truth torments people for not understaning said objective truth.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/20/2011 6:42:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 6:40:06 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
This is what I've been trying to tell people for a while now.

We are justified by faith(what we truly believe, not this type of lying to yourself that a lot of stupid theists tend to advocate), not obedience.

The holy spirit is a spirit of intellectual integrity. If you are willfully ignorant, and attempt to force yourself into believing something, you are not guided by the holy spirit, and your demons will tear your mind to pieces.:

That insinuates that there is an objective truth, and that said objective truth torments people for not understaning said objective truth.

If you cling on to ideas that you do not truly believe in, you will be tormented. Being out of touch with reality is the leading cause of mental illness in my opinion.

Few people are as tormented as a believer who faces extreme doubt.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/20/2011 6:46:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you cling on to ideas that you do not truly believe in, you will be tormented. Being out of touch with reality is the leading cause of mental illness in my opinion.

Few people are as tormented as a believer who faces extreme doubt.:

Oh, I misunderstood. As somebody who's been on the wrong end of a serious case of cognitive dissonance, I can attest to that truism.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/21/2011 5:04:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/20/2011 4:28:55 PM, BillyJean wrote:
Is there any sin so unforgivable that in order to do it, one must already be beyond saving? Jesus says that any sin can be confessed and one can be saved, but is there anything done that in doing say, that person is already too far gone? Cases like genocide or a lifetime of serial murders, rapes, etc. that go unpunished come to my mind.

Only ONE: The blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is blasphemed ONLY when one witnesses a miracle (of healing or demon exorcism etc) and flatly denies that it is the Spirit of God at work; there is NO hope for that person, they are either a 'son of the evil one' (like Judas Iscariot etc) or through a series of choices in their heart of hearts they have cut themselves off from God by their own volition.

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.


This means that we Christians may not PASS judgment (we may judge as in discernment) anyone unless we witness them witnessing a miracle and denouncing it as New Age hooey or from the devil etc.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.


John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


John 14:11
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
The Cross.. the Cross.
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/21/2011 5:45:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
^
That is the orthodox understanding, but I do not believe based on my own biblical studies that this is really the meaning.

That said, under this understanding, you are pretty much guaranteed into heaven, because miracles of the supernatural do not happen.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
DATCMOTO
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7/21/2011 10:24:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 5:45:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
^
That is the orthodox understanding, but I do not believe based on my own biblical studies that this is really the meaning.

That said, under this understanding, you are pretty much guaranteed into heaven, because miracles of the supernatural do not happen.

Here you are standing under scripture WHEN it suits you; there is a heaven etc

and ducking out WHEN it does NOT suit you; miracles do not happen etc

SO.. Dishonest or ignorant?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Man-is-good
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7/21/2011 12:34:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 10:35:12 AM, inferno wrote:

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"
((Mark 3:28-29 KJV)

While all sins can be forgiven, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost cannot be redeemed or amended, risking "the danger of eternal damnation". damnation". So, yes, Inferno, you are correct about blasphemy as being an "unforgivable sin"--although only in a sense...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/21/2011 1:06:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 10:24:35 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/21/2011 5:45:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
^
That is the orthodox understanding, but I do not believe based on my own biblical studies that this is really the meaning.

That said, under this understanding, you are pretty much guaranteed into heaven, because miracles of the supernatural do not happen.

Here you are standing under scripture WHEN it suits you; there is a heaven etc

and ducking out WHEN it does NOT suit you; miracles do not happen etc

SO.. Dishonest or ignorant?

No, I just have a drastically different concept of both, and I arrived at these conclusions because of the fact that I wasn't lazy in my biblical studies, and I didn't assume that I knew what it was supposed to mean. My understanding of the texts changed drastically the more I got into the linguistics, anthropology, history, and spiritual side of what I was reading.

It is rare that you find a Christian who isn't still on the milk of the word. They are the only ones who still call themselves Christians.

I don't believe in the afterlife the way you do. Heaven is here on Earth. It is the God of the living, not the dead.

Miracles are not the supernatural things you believe them to be. To me, nature is miraculous. Existence is amazing. I am in awe of God.

It is those who belong to the wicked generation that require the sign of the supernatural in order to believe. They would rather worship the idols of their mind than the God That Exists As Actuality. They are the true blasphemers.

In all truth, many atheists are closer to an understanding of God than the majority of Christians, even though they are unaware.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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7/21/2011 1:21:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 1:06:48 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/21/2011 10:24:35 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/21/2011 5:45:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
^
That is the orthodox understanding, but I do not believe based on my own biblical studies that this is really the meaning.

That said, under this understanding, you are pretty much guaranteed into heaven, because miracles of the supernatural do not happen.

Here you are standing under scripture WHEN it suits you; there is a heaven etc

and ducking out WHEN it does NOT suit you; miracles do not happen etc

SO.. Dishonest or ignorant?

No, I just have a drastically different concept of both, and I arrived at these conclusions because of the fact that I wasn't lazy in my biblical studies, and I didn't assume that I knew what it was supposed to mean. My understanding of the texts changed drastically the more I got into the linguistics, anthropology, history, and spiritual side of what I was reading.

It is rare that you find a Christian who isn't still on the milk of the word. They are the only ones who still call themselves Christians.

I don't believe in the afterlife the way you do. Heaven is here on Earth. It is the God of the living, not the dead.

Miracles are not the supernatural things you believe them to be. To me, nature is miraculous. Existence is amazing. I am in awe of God.

It is those who belong to the wicked generation that require the sign of the supernatural in order to believe. They would rather worship the idols of their mind than the God That Exists As Actuality. They are the true blasphemers.

In all truth, many atheists are closer to an understanding of God than the majority of Christians, even though they are unaware.

Cosmic. Youre on cool dude. But I disagree with your sentiment. You sound more
like a naturalist than anything else. Have you heard of the New Thought Movement by Rhonda Byrnes. Well nature in itself has a nucleus just like all things under the sun. Plants grow in soil, soil needs rain, rain comes from clouds, and sun gives light to plant and the cycle begins again. But what about that sun up in the sky ? Is it just a star that dwells in our part of the universe ? If so, then what created the
sun. The cycles are a signs of pattern and sequence. Life is so mysterious the
dynamics itself are infinite. Rhythm, instinct, life, death. These are all unexplained
elements of the supernatural. So far, you have not proven your case, by stating that they are just simply non fallacious. I find that to be illogical. =)
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/21/2011 6:09:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 1:21:08 PM, inferno wrote:
Cosmic. Youre on cool dude. But I disagree with your sentiment. You sound more
like a naturalist than anything else.

Sure, you could say I'm a naturalist.

Have you heard of the New Thought Movement by Rhonda Byrnes.

No. Sounds New Age.

Well nature in itself has a nucleus just like all things under the sun. Plants grow in soil, soil needs rain, rain comes from clouds, and sun gives light to plant and the cycle begins again. But what about that sun up in the sky ? Is it just a star that dwells in our part of the universe ? If so, then what created the sun. The cycles are a signs of pattern and sequence. Life is so mysterious the dynamics itself are infinite. Rhythm, instinct, life, death. These are all unexplained elements of the supernatural. So far, you have not proven your case, by stating that they are just simply non fallacious. I find that to be illogical. =)

You're making an O'Reilly argument, dawg.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that anything is supernatural. Supernatural is an absurdity, it implies that something happens independent of causality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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7/21/2011 6:20:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cosmic. Of course there is. Can you bring someone back from the dead ?
Can you see the future ? Can you breathe under water and then come back to the surface only to say that it was the grace of God Himself.
If these supernatural events were to take place in your life, then who would
get the credit. Experiences can be life altering my friend. Please respond.
CosmicAlfonzo
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7/22/2011 1:59:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 6:20:12 PM, inferno wrote:
Cosmic. Of course there is. Can you bring someone back from the dead ?
Can you see the future ? Can you breathe under water and then come back to the surface only to say that it was the grace of God Himself.
If these supernatural events were to take place in your life, then who would
get the credit. Experiences can be life altering my friend. Please respond.

Yes, doctors are able to bring people back from the dead(not after 3 days in a tomb *yet at least*, but defibrillators, certain other devices and techniques are able to revive someone who has been dead for a short period. We do have scuba technology that allows someone to breathe underwater.

Now, sure, you could say this is God, but it certainly isn't supernatural.

The supernatural doesn't exist. I've been around people my whole life who claim, believe, and fool other people into thinking that they perform miracles.

Though they are so deluded that they probably unaware of it, they are practitioners of chaos magic. Those who are fooled by them have fallen for the spell. They themselves are victims of a spell that was cast long ago, and still effects people to this day.

Belief is the primary tool and weapon of the magician.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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7/25/2011 10:08:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/22/2011 1:59:38 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/21/2011 6:20:12 PM, inferno wrote:
Cosmic. Of course there is. Can you bring someone back from the dead ?
Can you see the future ? Can you breathe under water and then come back to the surface only to say that it was the grace of God Himself.
If these supernatural events were to take place in your life, then who would
get the credit. Experiences can be life altering my friend. Please respond.


Yes, doctors are able to bring people back from the dead(not after 3 days in a tomb *yet at least*, but defibrillators, certain other devices and techniques are able to revive someone who has been dead for a short period. We do have scuba technology that allows someone to breathe underwater.

Now, sure, you could say this is God, but it certainly isn't supernatural.

The supernatural doesn't exist. I've been around people my whole life who claim, believe, and fool other people into thinking that they perform miracles.

Though they are so deluded that they probably unaware of it, they are practitioners of chaos magic. Those who are fooled by them have fallen for the spell. They themselves are victims of a spell that was cast long ago, and still effects people to this day.

Belief is the primary tool and weapon of the magician.

Belief is not the primary tool or weapon of any magician.
The supernatural cannot be explained by science which makes this a much more
logical issue within itself. Why ? It means that Man himself is only human giving
him limited access to things that are beyond him.
If you were more powerful than you are right now, you could fly without airplanes.
You would be able to breathe without a scuba device. You would be able to run
faster than a car. But since you are not physically capable of doing these things,
there are only a few people in this world who can.
You just have not seen them yet. Have you ?
inferno
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7/25/2011 10:12:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cosmic. The supernatural is bigger than life itself. It can come from good and evil.
Bot God and the devil have power that is much greater than Man. We are only
human because we are Earth born souls. Our capabilities are only as good as the
environment from which we came. Now if we were from another world, then we
would be able to do more physically, mentally, and spiritually.
The Spirit world is just as real as the physical. I take it that you have not been
exposed to anything outside of your element. I am sure I could take you to certain
corridors or places on this planet alone that would change your mind real quick.
And then you would never be so eagerly inclined to use the secular term "magic" again.
DATCMOTO
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7/28/2011 9:28:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 10:35:12 AM, inferno wrote:
Blasphemy, and suicide. Those are actually the two sins that you CANNOT
be forgiven for.

What is your source material for the suicide position? It certainly isn't the Bible.
The Cross.. the Cross.