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The Muslim and the Christian

Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/31/2011 8:29:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A muslim walks over to an agnostic and tells him Allah is the true God. He knows this, and the agnostic will eventually know it if he uses faith. Of course, there is no evidence, the agnostic will just need to agree.

Next, a Christian comes along on a DDO forum and tells the agnostic the exact same thing.

Is it unreasonable that the agnostic would want some form of argument other than "it's based on faith" before making a decision? Several threads are devoted to saying that such an agnostic is a moronic "skeptic" who needs a good talkin' to 'bout 'pistemology.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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7/31/2011 11:49:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/31/2011 8:29:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
A muslim walks over to an agnostic and tells him Allah is the true God. He knows this, and the agnostic will eventually know it if he uses faith. Of course, there is no evidence, the agnostic will just need to agree.

Next, a Christian comes along on a DDO forum and tells the agnostic the exact same thing.

Is it unreasonable that the agnostic would want some form of argument other than "it's based on faith" before making a decision? Several threads are devoted to saying that such an agnostic is a moronic "skeptic" who needs a good talkin' to 'bout 'pistemology.

If you're referring to my thread, I think it's perfectly clear that my questions are directed at anti-theists, not agnostics. The only question that might apply to agnostics is "Why would you ask for proof from a faith-based religion??". Whether intentional, or not, you have mischaracterized my entire argument.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/1/2011 3:17:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/31/2011 8:29:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
A muslim walks over to an agnostic and tells him Allah is the true God. He knows this, and the agnostic will eventually know it if he uses faith. Of course, there is no evidence, the agnostic will just need to agree.

Next, a Christian comes along on a DDO forum and tells the agnostic the exact same thing.

Is it unreasonable that the agnostic would want some form of argument other than "it's based on faith" before making a decision? Several threads are devoted to saying that such an agnostic is a moronic "skeptic" who needs a good talkin' to 'bout 'pistemology.

I was an agnostic for about 15-16 years or so, and I don't think that anyone ever made the argument that it was based on faith and thus I should believe. The road I took to faith was one that I would never recommend, and there was a change in me not just a change in information, nor the result of a persuasive argument, but rather there was substantive reason for the smallest of changes to enter my life so that I came to believe in a power greater than myself.

The causes for my agnosticism (I grew up with faith, and I left it around the age of 19 or so) came from a period where i was questioning everything, and exploring all sorts of philosophies and theologies. My period of agnosticism was undoubtedly the most unhappy period of my life, but it was important and is valuable to me now. Probably some of the most important advice I was given was from a Jesuit who said: 'God doesn't want you to leave your brain at the door when you enter a church.' That bit of advice has served me more now than ever.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/2/2011 4:26:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/31/2011 8:29:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
A muslim walks over to an agnostic and tells him Allah is the true God. He knows this, and the agnostic will eventually know it if he uses faith. Of course, there is no evidence, the agnostic will just need to agree.

Next, a Christian comes along on a DDO forum and tells the agnostic the exact same thing.

Is it unreasonable that the agnostic would want some form of argument other than "it's based on faith" before making a decision? Several threads are devoted to saying that such an agnostic is a moronic "skeptic" who needs a good talkin' to 'bout 'pistemology.

Faith is a GIFT given by Christ to those He has chosen; it is then the recipients task to SPEND the grace/mercy on those who have NOT received.. THIS is Christianity.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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8/2/2011 7:38:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/31/2011 8:29:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
A muslim walks over to an agnostic and tells him Allah is the true God. He knows this, and the agnostic will eventually know it if he uses faith. Of course, there is no evidence, the agnostic will just need to agree.

Next, a Christian comes along on a DDO forum and tells the agnostic the exact same thing.

Is it unreasonable that the agnostic would want some form of argument other than "it's based on faith" before making a decision? Several threads are devoted to saying that such an agnostic is a moronic "skeptic" who needs a good talkin' to 'bout 'pistemology.

Response: It is not unrealistic to request more proof other than "it's true because my scripture says so". Yet, the evidence that the qur'an is the true word of Allah and that islam is the true religion is not based on such proof, but can be proven with common logic and common sense.

The human species is intelligent. Therefore, this is enough proof to confirm that the origin of humans and all of creation originated from intelligent design. To say otherwise would mean that unintelligence created intelligence, which is clearly absurd because unintelligence can not create intelligence according to the very definition of the word. Unintelligence mens that it lacks the ability to comprehend and understand. Therefore, it can not be responsible for creating something with the ability to comprehend and understand it can not give something an ability it does not have themself. This demonstrates that the universe and life itself originated from intelligent design.

The question now becomes "Who is the intelligent designer?" Is it God? Jesus? Allah?... etc.

The qur'an directs us to the answer in the following:

"Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."(4:82).

Here we have test that demonstrates that there is no error in the qur'an, showing the truthful nature of the qur'an. If you disagree, then prove differently. We also read:

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an. For by trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an, you'll learn first hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

But before the thread is filled with the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the qur'an, let me further elaborate. The qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, it's intent is to inspire people to follow it's teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something which is as inspirational as the qur'an, for it's the inspiration of the qur'an which is miraculous. And what is that miracle you ask? The miracle is within the following:

"It is impossible for a person/s to use speech or literature invented by any person or people to inspire enough follows to conquer a nation."

This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is impossible to use any speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. You disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature invented by any person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation and see what happens. I'll even simplify the challenge by asking you to just conquer the street you live on and see what happens. You will fail and fail miserably. You won't come close to achieving the challenge. You'll learn first hand that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when you'll learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? Because Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation yet Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, then what does that mean? That means that the qur'an in which Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah (swt). You disagree? Take the challenge and prove differently.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/2/2011 9:44:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If intelligence can not come from unintelligence, and there is intelligence, where did intelligence come from?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp