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Atheism is irrelevent to religion ?

inferno
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8/2/2011 9:24:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Atheism- The critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. As such it is the opposite of theism, which affirms the reality of the divine and
seeks to demonstrate its existence. Atheism is to be distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question whether there is a deity or not.

Religion has a structure and a foundation which varies in different parts of the world. Atheists reject the notion that there is a deity. Note the word 'reject'.
To reject something means to deny something based on ones personal ideology, desires, and ideas. It is inadequte or incomplete. It does not suit your needs, requirements, or
does not meet your standards. Leaving the whole concept of Atheism to be
lacking in significance. Therefore it is irrelevent.
inferno
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8/2/2011 9:32:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Empirical evidence is evidence from observations and scientific research.
An Atheists observations may be based by senses only. But theists also
use senses to bring logic to their beliefs. How ? God is a Spirit, and the body
can pick up supernatural elements through sight, sound, hearing, and touch.
An Atheist CANNOT claim another persons belief is based on blind faith when there
are observations being made. Therefore Atheism is irrelevent.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 9:40:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
That's right, atheists. You are irrelevant.

How does it fvcking feel?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 9:47:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cosmic. This is a logical argument here. Atheism is a concept based on rejection.
That is the primary element next to empirical evidence. Well, just because you cannot see something, that does not mean that it is not there. There are things in the universe that have never and will never be discovered by humanity. So are we going to reject the fact that there are other planets in our solar system that has life other than Earth ? I think not. So why arent more Atheists adopting the agnostic position. Atheism is dogma. Period.
inferno
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8/2/2011 9:54:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is and estimated 2.3 percent Atheist population in the world today. About 11 percent are non religious. The majority of non religious believers are not claiming that a deity does not exist. They are only seperating themselves from any specific religion and systematic insitution. Tha Bahai Institute confesses to being a non religious group
that DOES believe in God. This is an example of seperating religion from God.
Again, Atheism is irrelevent.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 9:55:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 9:47:27 AM, inferno wrote:
Cosmic. This is a logical argument here. Atheism is a concept based on rejection.
That is the primary element next to empirical evidence. Well, just because you cannot see something, that does not mean that it is not there. There are things in the universe that have never and will never be discovered by humanity. So are we going to reject the fact that there are other planets in our solar system that has life other than Earth ? I think not. So why arent more Atheists adopting the agnostic position. Atheism is dogma. Period.

Atheism is the disbelief in a God.

An agnostic doesn't necessarily have to be totally neutral. You can be so sure of something.

100% certainty about ANYTHING is not easily obtainable to someone who is aware of their own epistemological limitations. An agnostic can be 95% percent sure that there is no God, be considered both an atheist and an agnostic.

You can admit that the existence of God is unknowable, and still say that you do not believe it. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God. They have not found any convincing reason to believe in a God.

The atheist position is not an assertion, though there are atheists who make the assertion that there is no God. But by all means, if they are wrong, give them reason to retract their claim.

You know what truly is irrelevant? The debate of God's existence.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 9:58:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You can also be an agnostic theist.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 10:02:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 9:58:59 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
You can also be an agnostic theist.

Most agnostics are undecided, that is the point of them being one in the first place. Those terms agnostic atheist or theist, seem to be an unrequited oxymoron. It is like saying I dont believe that a deity exist, but Im not sure that is 100% true.
You either know or you don't know, and it is as simple as that.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:08:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:02:19 AM, inferno wrote:
At 8/2/2011 9:58:59 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
You can also be an agnostic theist.

Most agnostics are undecided, that is the point of them being one in the first place. Those terms agnostic atheist or theist, seem to be an unrequited oxymoron. It is like saying I dont believe that a deity exist, but Im not sure that is 100% true.
You either know or you don't know, and it is as simple as that.

It is as simple as that.

You don't know, but you believe a certain way.

You don't know there is a God, but you believe there is.

You don't know that there is a God, but you believe there isn't.

Do you understand what I'm saying? You don't have to know with 100% certainty to believe something.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:09:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The type of agnostic you are thinking of is like..

I don't know, and I don't have an opinion.

They are all agnostics though.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 10:09:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 9:55:14 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/2/2011 9:47:27 AM, inferno wrote:
Cosmic. This is a logical argument here. Atheism is a concept based on rejection.
That is the primary element next to empirical evidence. Well, just because you cannot see something, that does not mean that it is not there. There are things in the universe that have never and will never be discovered by humanity. So are we going to reject the fact that there are other planets in our solar system that has life other than Earth ? I think not. So why arent more Atheists adopting the agnostic position. Atheism is dogma. Period.


Atheism is the disbelief in a God.

An agnostic doesn't necessarily have to be totally neutral. You can be so sure of something.


100% certainty about ANYTHING is not easily obtainable to someone who is aware of their own epistemological limitations. An agnostic can be 95% percent sure that there is no God, be considered both an atheist and an agnostic.

You can admit that the existence of God is unknowable, and still say that you do not believe it. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God. They have not found any convincing reason to believe in a God.

The atheist position is not an assertion, though there are atheists who make the assertion that there is no God. But by all means, if they are wrong, give them reason to retract their claim.


You know what truly is irrelevant? The debate of God's existence.

An Atheist is a person that does not believe in God or other deities based on their own personal observation. Which gives way to empirical evidence. <
This is the smoking gun of all of their beliefs. But it is only a biased, and subjective emotion. It is not scientific or substantial enough within itself to say that I do not believe in a deity simply because I have not had the experience that others have had
which in turn can create relevence. You are eliminating the possibilty of ones own ability to acquire logic through the use of human senses. This gives it a more personal element. If it does not meet your requirements or standards, then it is rejected. The opposing party does not reject the notion that God exists as they are also using their senses. This gives them reason to believe and you do not accept.
Just because. Atheism is irrelevent.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:23:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:09:58 AM, inferno wrote:

An Atheist is a person that does not believe in God or other deities based on their own personal observation. Which gives way to empirical evidence. <

An atheist is a person that does not believe in the existence of God or other deities.

You can stop the definition there, because all the rest is irrelevant to what an atheist is.

An atheist may have arrived at their conclusions based on personal observation, etc, but not all atheists.

An atheist is someone who does not believe in God.

That is it.

No more.

No reason

That is it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 10:32:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:23:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:09:58 AM, inferno wrote:

An Atheist is a person that does not believe in God or other deities based on their own personal observation. Which gives way to empirical evidence. <

An atheist is a person that does not believe in the existence of God or other deities.

You can stop the definition there, because all the rest is irrelevant to what an atheist is.

An atheist may have arrived at their conclusions based on personal observation, etc, but not all atheists.


An atheist is someone who does not believe in God.

That is it.

No more.

No reason

That is it.

Well if there is no reason to it then Atheism is UNDENIABLY irrelevent.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:41:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:32:01 AM, inferno wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:23:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:09:58 AM, inferno wrote:

An Atheist is a person that does not believe in God or other deities based on their own personal observation. Which gives way to empirical evidence. <

An atheist is a person that does not believe in the existence of God or other deities.

You can stop the definition there, because all the rest is irrelevant to what an atheist is.

An atheist may have arrived at their conclusions based on personal observation, etc, but not all atheists.


An atheist is someone who does not believe in God.

That is it.

No more.

No reason

That is it.

Well if there is no reason to it then Atheism is UNDENIABLY irrelevent.

The disbelief in God is just as irrelevant as a belief in God.

A theist is someone who believes in the existence of God(s).

An Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God(s).

There is no reason to either.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 10:43:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:41:12 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:32:01 AM, inferno wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:23:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:09:58 AM, inferno wrote:

An Atheist is a person that does not believe in God or other deities based on their own personal observation. Which gives way to empirical evidence. <

An atheist is a person that does not believe in the existence of God or other deities.

You can stop the definition there, because all the rest is irrelevant to what an atheist is.

An atheist may have arrived at their conclusions based on personal observation, etc, but not all atheists.


An atheist is someone who does not believe in God.

That is it.

No more.

No reason

That is it.

Well if there is no reason to it then Atheism is UNDENIABLY irrelevent.

The disbelief in God is just as irrelevant as a belief in God.

A theist is someone who believes in the existence of God(s).

An Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God(s).

There is no reason to either.

Of course there is a reason to both. For every action there is a reaction.
You have cause and effect. If you do not have any of these, then you are
illogical and your argument is too.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:45:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You must be as bored as I am.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:46:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
A statement of Atheism or Theism doesn't imply a reason.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 10:48:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:46:13 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
A statement of Atheism or Theism doesn't imply a reason.

Of course it does, why else would people make a claim. Obviously they have
a reason for believing what they do.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:49:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:48:05 AM, inferno wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:46:13 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
A statement of Atheism or Theism doesn't imply a reason.

Of course it does, why else would people make a claim. Obviously they have
a reason for believing what they do.

They are not intrinsic to the definitions of the words.

I never said that people didn't have reasons for believing what they do.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 10:56:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:49:01 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:48:05 AM, inferno wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:46:13 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
A statement of Atheism or Theism doesn't imply a reason.

Of course it does, why else would people make a claim. Obviously they have
a reason for believing what they do.

They are not intrinsic to the definitions of the words.

I never said that people didn't have reasons for believing what they do.

Well then. My point stands. The definition of the word is only hyothetical.
But the reality is objective. There is reason behind what we believe.
Giving no reason is ilogical and yes by definition of the word.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 10:58:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You're funny.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Lasagna
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8/2/2011 11:01:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have an old friend on facebook who put his religion as "cathloc." I was thinking - he's probably never even considered atheism in his whole life (probably can't define it, because he's not from an intellectual crowd). He probably doesn't know about different branches of Christianity, and if he did, he hasn't ever considered that perhaps one fits his beliefs better than catholicism - because he doesn't have beliefs, he just knows he's a catholic and whatever the catholic doctrine is, equates to what he believes.

My friend is a true believer, because he has yet to ever question his beliefs. In contrast, take someone like DATCMOTO, who is a hard-core Christian who is familiar with the different sects, who is familiar with atheism and other non-Christian religions, and who has at least capable of asking himself "am I a believer?"

I would argue that people who are more educated, despite how emphatically and zealously Christian they are, are not capable of being true believers; are not capable of escaping intellectual agnosticism. DATCMOTO cannot be as true of a believer as my gang-banger friend who can't even spell "catholic" because he has at least entertained the .001% chance that perhaps he doesn't believe.

Conclusion: we are all agnostics. All of us have a minute % chance that we are wrong in our convictions. Only those like my gang-banger friend, who are incapable of questioning their belief, could be considered true believers.
Rob
inferno
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8/2/2011 11:15:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 11:01:49 AM, Lasagna wrote:
I have an old friend on facebook who put his religion as "cathloc." I was thinking - he's probably never even considered atheism in his whole life (probably can't define it, because he's not from an intellectual crowd). He probably doesn't know about different branches of Christianity, and if he did, he hasn't ever considered that perhaps one fits his beliefs better than catholicism - because he doesn't have beliefs, he just knows he's a catholic and whatever the catholic doctrine is, equates to what he believes.

My friend is a true believer, because he has yet to ever question his beliefs. In contrast, take someone like DATCMOTO, who is a hard-core Christian who is familiar with the different sects, who is familiar with atheism and other non-Christian religions, and who has at least capable of asking himself "am I a believer?"

I would argue that people who are more educated, despite how emphatically and zealously Christian they are, are not capable of being true believers; are not capable of escaping intellectual agnosticism. DATCMOTO cannot be as true of a believer as my gang-banger friend who can't even spell "catholic" because he has at least entertained the .001% chance that perhaps he doesn't believe.

Conclusion: we are all agnostics. All of us have a minute % chance that we are wrong in our convictions. Only those like my gang-banger friend, who are incapable of questioning their belief, could be considered true believers.

Lasagna. Youre a cool guy, but I cannot agree with you here. We are not all agnostics. If Christians were undecided, then they would be making other choices instead of asking themselves do I believe in God. Of course I do, and I have no desire to change what I believe under and circumstances. The education argument is irrelevent. Youre being subjective here and it does not give your argument any legs to stand on. If someone has a conviction, then it cannot be altered by secularism. If so, then yes you would be considered agnostic by nature. Most Christians do have a vastness of mind that is very underrated by non believers abroad. The blind faith concept is laughable at best. Again it all goes back to empirical evidence. Our evidence comes from what we have personally experienced through our coherent senses. How can you tell me that what I believe is false, when I have evidence based on observation alone. It does not make sense. Atheism is indeed irrelevent.
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 12:54:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Naive Realism, dawg.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
inferno
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8/2/2011 1:39:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cosmic. Naive realism ? Did you coin that phrase ? LOL
I have made a perfectly logical point.
I dare anyone here to challenge me on this.
GeoLaureate8
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8/2/2011 1:54:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 9:54:31 AM, inferno wrote:
There is and estimated 2.3 percent Atheist population in the world today. About 11 percent are non religious. The majority of non religious believers are not claiming that a deity does not exist. They are only seperating themselves from any specific religion and systematic insitution. Tha Bahai Institute confesses to being a non religious group
that DOES believe in God. This is an example of seperating religion from God.

False. Baha'i is a religion and even recognized by the government as a religion. Baha'is simply believe that all religious prophets and figures are all unique messengers of the same God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/2/2011 2:00:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I use it as a term to describe people who put more trust into their own senses that is warranted.

Don't get me wrong, naive realists can be very logical, and are more justified than most.. But they make the critical mistake of forgetting factor in the tool that is being used to measure. Naive realists are more likely to be the "I'd have to see it to believe it" types, while a scientific realist would be more likely to put more effort into determining whether what they saw was in fact true.

A naive realist might experience what they perceive to be a vision from God, and believe it.

A scientific realist would have the same experience, and realize that at the time of the experience they were cognitively impaired in some way. Religious experiences tend to happen when the one experiencing it is in an emotionally compromised state, and in an environment where their minds are very open to suggestion, and specifically looking for patterns relating to the divine. Drugs can also induce what some think to be a mystical experience.

A naive realist will look at a tree, and declare that it is a tree. A scientific realist understands that a tree is not a tree.

Naive realists and scientific realists are very similar, the difference is that naive realists don't understand that they are experiencing actuality through a very subjective lens. The scientific realist, understanding this, can be more objective.
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