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Religion and non testable claims

Illegalcombatant
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8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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8/2/2011 10:21:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No other comments yet, I actually do want to hear what people have to say on this topic, c'mon help a brotha out.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/2/2011 10:51:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

You'd only be able to test the claims made by man, but that wouldn't necessarily be testing God Himself. God can still exist, even though man might not have enough understanding of Him to make their claims accurate.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

Right

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

What's to mention?? How could we possibly test what happens in the afterlife?? We've never made pretense about anything being proven here on earth. You either believe it, or you don't, in the end we'll all find out the truth.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/2/2011 11:16:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:51:49 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

You'd only be able to test the claims made by man, but that wouldn't necessarily be testing God Himself. God can still exist, even though man might not have enough understanding of Him to make their claims accurate.

Well man is the only one making those sorts of claims, its not about testing God per se, its about testing the claims made in Gods name, the claims made by humans, never God of course.

If you can't test it, you should be very wary of believing it. Its also hypocritical if your going to believe one set of untestable God claims why not believe them all ? why be so selective ?

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

Right


A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

What's to mention?? How could we possibly test what happens in the afterlife?? We've never made pretense about anything being proven here on earth. You either believe it, or you don't, in the end we'll all find out the truth.

They should mention it, untestable claims are common in scams. Untestable claims are the lowest value kind of claim you can make. If they told their followers these things it would kind of put a dent in their theology now wouldn't it.

As far as hell and the after life, you mean how people are going to hell for not accepting the quran as Gods final and perfect revelation to mankind ? :)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
christisking
Posts: 72
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8/3/2011 11:27:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

I believe that Christianity does have some testable claims. It claims that the Bible never contradicts itself. The OT and NT have a number of prophesies which were indeed fulfilled. The popes (yes I am Catholic) have never contradicted eachother in thier official teachings. Christ claimed the devil would never defeat his Church, and the Catholic Church still stands stronger than ever today. It teaches that following the commandments is the way to have the most happiness in life, which I have personally discovered to be true. Those are the few which come to mind just off of the top of my head. There are a few other arguments I could bring up, but wouldn't apply to your question as directly as these.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/3/2011 11:36:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 11:27:26 AM, christisking wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

I believe that Christianity does have some testable claims. It claims that the Bible never contradicts itself.

Which it does.

The OT and NT have a number of prophesies which were indeed fulfilled. The popes (yes I am Catholic) have never contradicted eachother in thier official teachings.

Seriously? You really need to read up on history.

Christ claimed the devil would never defeat his Church, and the Catholic Church still stands stronger than ever today.

It is very tenuous to claim that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
inferno
Posts: 10,678
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8/3/2011 11:46:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 11:27:26 AM, christisking wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

I believe that Christianity does have some testable claims. It claims that the Bible never contradicts itself. The OT and NT have a number of prophesies which were indeed fulfilled. The popes (yes I am Catholic) have never contradicted eachother in thier official teachings. Christ claimed the devil would never defeat his Church, and the Catholic Church still stands stronger than ever today. It teaches that following the commandments is the way to have the most happiness in life, which I have personally discovered to be true. Those are the few which come to mind just off of the top of my head. There are a few other arguments I could bring up, but wouldn't apply to your question as directly as these.

Christianity's influence and power will never die. It will become stronger as time goes on. People will cling even harder to religion than ever before when the
revolution begins which is happening as we speak. A great awakening is upon us now and God will forever be revered. The ones who are left out of the ark of safety
will perish. It says so in His Word. I admire The Catholic Church because of their
faith. I do not think we should allow a few false prophets to define it. This is
true.
christisking
Posts: 72
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8/3/2011 1:01:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 11:36:24 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/3/2011 11:27:26 AM, christisking wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

I believe that Christianity does have some testable claims. It claims that the Bible never contradicts itself.

Which it does.

Not that I have seen.

The OT and NT have a number of prophesies which were indeed fulfilled. The popes (yes I am Catholic) have never contradicted eachother in thier official teachings.

Seriously? You really need to read up on history.

Are you refering to the prophesies, the popes or both? Which ever it is, please give some examples of where I am wrong.

Christ claimed the devil would never defeat his Church, and the Catholic Church still stands stronger than ever today.

It is very tenuous to claim that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church.

It is one which I willing and ready to defend. It is 'one, holy, universal and apostolic' as the saying goes.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/3/2011 2:36:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 11:16:28 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:51:49 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

You'd only be able to test the claims made by man, but that wouldn't necessarily be testing God Himself. God can still exist, even though man might not have enough understanding of Him to make their claims accurate.

Well man is the only one making those sorts of claims, its not about testing God per se, its about testing the claims made in Gods name, the claims made by humans, never God of course.

If you can't test it, you should be very wary of believing it. Its also hypocritical if your going to believe one set of untestable God claims why not believe them all ? why be so selective ?

Now we're back discussing the same thing we were in the other thread. God is untestable, but so is the claim the He doesn't exist, so shouldn't you be wary, as well?? And wouldn't you be hypocritical, as well. Things like the big bang theory, evolution, etc., are unproven, yet they're accepted and even taught in schools.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

Right


A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

What's to mention?? How could we possibly test what happens in the afterlife?? We've never made pretense about anything being proven here on earth. You either believe it, or you don't, in the end we'll all find out the truth.

They should mention it, untestable claims are common in scams. Untestable claims are the lowest value kind of claim you can make. If they told their followers these things it would kind of put a dent in their theology now wouldn't it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. What are we not mentioning?? We don't tell people that we will prove to them that God exists, only God can do that, it's well known that our religion is faith-based. You're intimating that we're hiding something when we're not, so how does that effect our theology??

As far as hell and the after life, you mean how people are going to hell for not accepting the quran as Gods final and perfect revelation to mankind ? :)

I guess, if you say so. Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/4/2011 1:21:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 2:36:14 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/2/2011 11:16:28 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:51:49 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

You'd only be able to test the claims made by man, but that wouldn't necessarily be testing God Himself. God can still exist, even though man might not have enough understanding of Him to make their claims accurate.

Well man is the only one making those sorts of claims, its not about testing God per se, its about testing the claims made in Gods name, the claims made by humans, never God of course.

If you can't test it, you should be very wary of believing it. Its also hypocritical if your going to believe one set of untestable God claims why not believe them all ? why be so selective ?

Now we're back discussing the same thing we were in the other thread. God is untestable, but so is the claim the He doesn't exist, so shouldn't you be wary, as well?? And wouldn't you be hypocritical, as well. Things like the big bang theory, evolution, etc., are unproven, yet they're accepted and even taught in schools.

Actually saying God is untestable is a lie, it depends on what exaclty the claim is being made. As I pointed out before, A God who will always heal in the name of Jesus is a testable God, A God who doesn't heal but has or might have sufficient moral reason for not doing so is an untestable God.

To put it another way, sure God might exist and has sufficient moral reason for not healing a child, but cause its untestable it might also be the case that God doesn't exist and this is just an excuse to justify the non evidence.

And we have been over this in the other thread, you can't equate existent statements with the denial of existent statements. It does you no good to say A certain God exists and you can't prove that false, therefore to deny this God exists is just as equally fallacious. Do I need to repost the peter slezak video again ? I think I will :)

Slezaks explains on the logic of proof and dis proff and not believing a claim start at the 5 min mark.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

Right


A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

What's to mention?? How could we possibly test what happens in the afterlife?? We've never made pretense about anything being proven here on earth. You either believe it, or you don't, in the end we'll all find out the truth.

They should mention it, untestable claims are common in scams. Untestable claims are the lowest value kind of claim you can make. If they told their followers these things it would kind of put a dent in their theology now wouldn't it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. What are we not mentioning?? We don't tell people that we will prove to them that God exists, only God can do that, it's well known that our religion is faith-based. You're intimating that we're hiding something when we're not, so how does that effect our theology??

As far as hell and the after life, you mean how people are going to hell for not accepting the quran as Gods final and perfect revelation to mankind ? :)

I guess, if you say so. Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Your not mentioning that the claims are UNTESTABLE and thus can never be proven false. A claim that is testable and not proven false is a HUGE difference from a claim that can't be tested and not proven false.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/4/2011 2:32:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 1:01:32 PM, christisking wrote:
At 8/3/2011 11:36:24 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/3/2011 11:27:26 AM, christisking wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

I believe that Christianity does have some testable claims. It claims that the Bible never contradicts itself.

Which it does.

Not that I have seen.


Jesus states both that he has not come to change the law, yet also changes the law?

The OT and NT have a number of prophesies which were indeed fulfilled. The popes (yes I am Catholic) have never contradicted eachother in thier official teachings.

Seriously? You really need to read up on history.

Are you refering to the prophesies, the popes or both? Which ever it is, please give some examples of where I am wrong.

There is the Cadaver Synod for a start.


Christ claimed the devil would never defeat his Church, and the Catholic Church still stands stronger than ever today.

It is very tenuous to claim that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church.

It is one which I willing and ready to defend. It is 'one, holy, universal and apostolic' as the saying goes.

By it's own doctrine it is in schism from the original Church.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/4/2011 5:59:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

He's set things up so that the LITTLE things matter most; worries, resentment, secret prayers, evil thoughts etc

Matthew 13:31-32
31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."
The Cross.. the Cross.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/4/2011 6:16:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/4/2011 5:59:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

He's set things up so that the LITTLE things matter most; worries, resentment, secret prayers, evil thoughts etc


Matthew 13:31-32
31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."


And this is relevant to testable vs untestable claims how ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
christisking
Posts: 72
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8/4/2011 9:16:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe that Christianity does have some testable claims. It claims that the Bible never contradicts itself.

Which it does.

Not that I have seen.


Jesus states both that he has not come to change the law, yet also changes the law?

You are refering to a Passage from Matthew 5. The below site has a good explanation of it, part of which I will post here. http://forums.catholic.com...

To fulfill the law appears at first to mean a literal enforcement of the law in the least detail: until heaven and earth pass away nothing of the law will pass (Matthew 5:18). Yet the "passing away" of heaven and earth is not necessarily the end of the world understood, as in much apocalyptic literature, as the dissolution of the existing universe. The "turning of the ages" comes with the apocalyptic event of Jesus' death and resurrection, and those to whom this gospel is addressed are living in the new and final age, prophesied by Isaiah as the time of "new heavens and a new earth" (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22). Meanwhile, during Jesus' ministry when the kingdom is already breaking in, his mission remains within the framework of the law, though with significant anticipation of the age to come, as the following antitheses (Matthew 5:21-48) show.

The OT and NT have a number of prophesies which were indeed fulfilled. The popes (yes I am Catholic) have never contradicted eachother in thier official teachings.

Seriously? You really need to read up on history.

Are you refering to the prophesies, the popes or both? Which ever it is, please give some examples of where I am wrong.

There is the Cadaver Synod for a start.

What about it? Which pope contradicted which other pope in his authoritative teachings?

It is very tenuous to claim that Christ's Church is the Roman Catholic Church.

It is one which I willing and ready to defend. It is 'one, holy, universal and apostolic' as the saying goes.

By it's own doctrine it is in schism from the original Church.

By its own teachings rather, it is the one true Church established by Christ. I don't know where you could possibly have gotten that from.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/4/2011 10:25:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/4/2011 6:16:37 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/4/2011 5:59:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/2/2011 10:52:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You can't prove a religion or God as false, if its crafted in such a way to be untestable.

If it is claimed that God will heal children born blind in the name of Jesus, you can test that.

If it is claimed that God exists and has morally sufficient reason to not heal the child born blind, how do you test that ? you can't.

A religion is very good at teaching that if you don't accept its beliefs you are going to hell, funny how they never mention the difference between testable claims and non testable claims, people might start wising up whats going on eh ?

He's set things up so that the LITTLE things matter most; worries, resentment, secret prayers, evil thoughts etc


Matthew 13:31-32
31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."


And this is relevant to testable vs untestable claims how ?

Because proof is never offered..
The Cross.. the Cross.