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Easy big misunderstanding.

GodSands
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8/3/2011 7:34:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Salvation is what? In terms of Christianity, what is it? A clear decision or a lose one at the age of eight when everyone else is walking up to the altar?

Guess what... It is none of those. It is a manifestation of the power of God interceding the very creation of the universe. Paul Washer once said along the lines of this, that the power of saving one sinner exceeds the very creation of the universe, since God created the universe from nothing, but when God saves a corrupt sinner He (God) is recreating a human from a infinitely doomed mass.

How then does one (a sinner) become to hate the sin that he or she once absolutely loved? No yet have I ever heard an answer to that question that does not reply back in secular naivety. I have heard people say that "a Christian is a mere normality, no different from any other 'non believer', it is just that they believe that what they think is real is actual, literal and current in day to day life. Apart from that, there is no actuality to any claim that is made to Christianity and conversion being true. Rather it is a psychological or an easy believeism occurrence, by in which I mean, you can believe what you like because what you believe isn't to different to believe given your education or intelligence and thus the moral compass warped to a degree where one thinks they need a savour."

Yet none of the quotation above gives a reason why and how someone can love their moral compass and then hate their moral compass. All the above quotation explains is why a person may believe in what he or she does currently. It doesn't explain how they began to hate sin and love God.

Of course hypothetically anything is possible, I could explain how to jump to the moon, yet it is another thing to actually do it, given all the laws of physics and so on. So I can say I am converted and that God has actually changed me, but it would mean nothing if God hasn't done anything, let alone exist. However when someone is converted it isn't simply a change in moral values, as what religious teaching produces, it is a change of life. Hence the 'give Jesus Christ your life, not merely your moral map and picnic basket.'.

I also object to the 'ex atheist' type, that seem to make it out that they are all out for God and that they continuously go on about how God can make your life 5 million times funnier and better by God saving your car from failing it's MOT or that you can now believe that God exists and love your self. I am hoping (although I am the worst of God's children, the least obedient) that my Christian life, will proceed to exult Yeshua in all I can.

Salvation, to you non believers, what on earth is it?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/3/2011 7:39:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Salvation is a condescending and manipulative tool that is used to trick schmucks into believing the craziest of things. I find the very concept to be asinine and insulting. Not only that, but I consider it to be a massive cop out.

At least, that is how the Christians make it look.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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8/3/2011 7:48:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 7:39:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Salvation is a condescending and manipulative tool that is used to trick schmucks into believing the craziest of things. I find the very concept to be asinine and insulting. Not only that, but I consider it to be a massive cop out.

At least, that is how the Christians make it look.

And everything you lay claim to is completely legitimate and level headed!
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/3/2011 8:01:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 7:39:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Salvation is a condescending and manipulative tool that is used to trick schmucks into believing the craziest of things. I find the very concept to be asinine and insulting. Not only that, but I consider it to be a massive cop out.

At least, that is how the Christians make it look.

Do you lingering awaiting my posts, because you always seem to be the one that puts a reply in first, before anyone else to take a breath of air.

In any case, I agree with you on some aspects that you made, a lot of what people see of what they think is Christianity does appear to be a cop out, goodness me, those children can be so delusional and mislead. And my word, those adults are too, where is the FIRE of Christ!? The people out side of the community dwellers peer in on the faith of Christianity and see what? A bunch of people having a good time within their belief system and absolutely no more. There is the occasional one or two who take slight interest from a self willing heart, but it is mostly people who find friendship and a honourable welcome that take to Christian doctrine with a light mind and a weak passion through out their lives, with no growth or revelation. What I believe is almost identical to what Paul Washer believes in relation to Christianity.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/3/2011 8:07:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 7:34:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
Salvation is what? In terms of Christianity, what is it? A clear decision or a lose one at the age of eight when everyone else is walking up to the altar?

Guess what... It is none of those. It is a manifestation of the power of God interceding the very creation of the universe. Paul Washer once said along the lines of this, that the power of saving one sinner exceeds the very creation of the universe, since God created the universe from nothing, but when God saves a corrupt sinner He (God) is recreating a human from a infinitely doomed mass.

How then does one (a sinner) become to hate the sin that he or she once absolutely loved? No yet have I ever heard an answer to that question that does not reply back in secular naivety. I have heard people say that "a Christian is a mere normality, no different from any other 'non believer', it is just that they believe that what they think is real is actual, literal and current in day to day life. Apart from that, there is no actuality to any claim that is made to Christianity and conversion being true. Rather it is a psychological or an easy believeism occurrence, by in which I mean, you can believe what you like because what you believe isn't to different to believe given your education or intelligence and thus the moral compass warped to a degree where one thinks they need a savour."

Yet none of the quotation above gives a reason why and how someone can love their moral compass and then hate their moral compass.

Reply: Change is constant. Where you choose to place your desire on the scale of negative and positive determines your current position within God's Law. Both ends of this scale are of God. The difference is knowing what each side represents and then choosing where you want to place your energy. This is your choice of perception. This choice is what may flip someone's moral compass or make them see their old choices in a different light. The more knowledge you have, the more you will change. The more you change, the more you will see your old self in a different way. Though, their is never any reason to hate your old choices, for they are the very thing that brought you to your current state of growth. Those choices, though they may have been negative in essence... They all have the potential to become positive learning experiences in the power of a positive perception. Your choice of perception determines what energy is the result. Thus is the principle of cause and effect married to the principle of polarity in this way.

Salvation

Salvation is said to be many things, but if it the term means anything to me at all... It means this...

Salvation is the choice to acknowledge a higher power and the desire to understand this higher power's workings.

No matter what religious or spiritual beliefs you may have developed... I think that this definition of Salvation can apply to most, if not all.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/3/2011 8:09:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I see it as a big game of make believe, and the people playing it take it too seriously.

Nothing wrong with playing make believe.. As long as you realize you are doing it...
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/3/2011 8:10:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 7:48:44 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 8/3/2011 7:39:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Salvation is a condescending and manipulative tool that is used to trick schmucks into believing the craziest of things. I find the very concept to be asinine and insulting. Not only that, but I consider it to be a massive cop out.

At least, that is how the Christians make it look.

And everything you lay claim to is completely legitimate and level headed!

I never said that, but if that is your knee jerk reaction to what I say, it is more an indication of your own state of mind than my own.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/4/2011 12:57:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 8:10:36 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/3/2011 7:48:44 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 8/3/2011 7:39:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Salvation is a condescending and manipulative tool that is used to trick schmucks into believing the craziest of things. I find the very concept to be asinine and insulting. Not only that, but I consider it to be a massive cop out.

At least, that is how the Christians make it look.

And everything you lay claim to is completely legitimate and level headed!

I never said that, but if that is your knee jerk reaction to what I say, it is more an indication of your own state of mind than my own.

I didn't understand that.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/4/2011 1:02:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 8:07:49 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 8/3/2011 7:34:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
Salvation is what? In terms of Christianity, what is it? A clear decision or a lose one at the age of eight when everyone else is walking up to the altar?

Guess what... It is none of those. It is a manifestation of the power of God interceding the very creation of the universe. Paul Washer once said along the lines of this, that the power of saving one sinner exceeds the very creation of the universe, since God created the universe from nothing, but when God saves a corrupt sinner He (God) is recreating a human from a infinitely doomed mass.

How then does one (a sinner) become to hate the sin that he or she once absolutely loved? No yet have I ever heard an answer to that question that does not reply back in secular naivety. I have heard people say that "a Christian is a mere normality, no different from any other 'non believer', it is just that they believe that what they think is real is actual, literal and current in day to day life. Apart from that, there is no actuality to any claim that is made to Christianity and conversion being true. Rather it is a psychological or an easy believeism occurrence, by in which I mean, you can believe what you like because what you believe isn't to different to believe given your education or intelligence and thus the moral compass warped to a degree where one thinks they need a savour."

Yet none of the quotation above gives a reason why and how someone can love their moral compass and then hate their moral compass.

Reply: Change is constant. Where you choose to place your desire on the scale of negative and positive determines your current position within God's Law. Both ends of this scale are of God. The difference is knowing what each side represents and then choosing where you want to place your energy. This is your choice of perception. This choice is what may flip someone's moral compass or make them see their old choices in a different light. The more knowledge you have, the more you will change. The more you change, the more you will see your old self in a different way. Though, their is never any reason to hate your old choices, for they are the very thing that brought you to your current state of growth. Those choices, though they may have been negative in essence... They all have the potential to become positive learning experiences in the power of a positive perception. Your choice of perception determines what energy is the result. Thus is the principle of cause and effect married to the principle of polarity in this way.


Salvation

Salvation is said to be many things, but if it the term means anything to me at all... It means this...

Salvation is the choice to acknowledge a higher power and the desire to understand this higher power's workings.

No matter what religious or spiritual beliefs you may have developed... I think that this definition of Salvation can apply to most, if not all.

So, you just described how someone become a moral nut. Or at least that was what I got from your reply, it wasn't that clear to be honest.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/4/2011 4:46:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/4/2011 1:02:12 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 8/3/2011 8:07:49 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 8/3/2011 7:34:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
Salvation is what? In terms of Christianity, what is it? A clear decision or a lose one at the age of eight when everyone else is walking up to the altar?

Guess what... It is none of those. It is a manifestation of the power of God interceding the very creation of the universe. Paul Washer once said along the lines of this, that the power of saving one sinner exceeds the very creation of the universe, since God created the universe from nothing, but when God saves a corrupt sinner He (God) is recreating a human from a infinitely doomed mass.

How then does one (a sinner) become to hate the sin that he or she once absolutely loved? No yet have I ever heard an answer to that question that does not reply back in secular naivety. I have heard people say that "a Christian is a mere normality, no different from any other 'non believer', it is just that they believe that what they think is real is actual, literal and current in day to day life. Apart from that, there is no actuality to any claim that is made to Christianity and conversion being true. Rather it is a psychological or an easy believeism occurrence, by in which I mean, you can believe what you like because what you believe isn't to different to believe given your education or intelligence and thus the moral compass warped to a degree where one thinks they need a savour."

Yet none of the quotation above gives a reason why and how someone can love their moral compass and then hate their moral compass.

Reply: Change is constant. Where you choose to place your desire on the scale of negative and positive determines your current position within God's Law. Both ends of this scale are of God. The difference is knowing what each side represents and then choosing where you want to place your energy. This is your choice of perception. This choice is what may flip someone's moral compass or make them see their old choices in a different light. The more knowledge you have, the more you will change. The more you change, the more you will see your old self in a different way. Though, their is never any reason to hate your old choices, for they are the very thing that brought you to your current state of growth. Those choices, though they may have been negative in essence... They all have the potential to become positive learning experiences in the power of a positive perception. Your choice of perception determines what energy is the result. Thus is the principle of cause and effect married to the principle of polarity in this way.


Salvation

Salvation is said to be many things, but if it the term means anything to me at all... It means this...

Salvation is the choice to acknowledge a higher power and the desire to understand this higher power's workings.

No matter what religious or spiritual beliefs you may have developed... I think that this definition of Salvation can apply to most, if not all.

So, you just described how someone become a moral nut. Or at least that was what I got from your reply, it wasn't that clear to be honest.

Reply: t does not describe someone being a moral nut, it describes the changing within an individual's moral compass and why that change takes place. It was very clear and it explains the knowledge you seek, which answers your question.

I would advise not to mock that which you do not understand, just because you don't understand it. Keep trying to figure it out until the meaning makes sense to you, even if you do not agree with it. Once you do this, then we can continue this pleasant discussion.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/5/2011 12:30:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Reply: it does not describe someone being a moral nut, it describes the changing within an individual's moral compass and why that change takes place. It was very clear and it explains the knowledge you seek, which answers your question.

I would advise not to mock that which you do not understand, just because you don't understand it. Keep trying to figure it out until the meaning makes sense to you, even if you do not agree with it. Once you do this, then we can continue this pleasant discussion.


You explained how ones moral compass changes, and when one becomes a Christian that does happen, but it isn't the essence of the conversion. The moral change is mere sufficient, just like if I were to fry an egg, heat is necessary but the temperature of the heat is sufficient. So when one is converted, their moral compass changes or rather transforms. I wouldn't use the word change, since there view is totally different is accordance to morality. If my moral compass simply changed, then my moral compass would be a secular one, just considered a fairly good secular compass. A Christian moral compass says no to all evil and immoral deeds, not just some like theft, but things like sexual immorality and cursing. Thus it is more of a transformation. Given that, the Bible actually refers to those born again as new creatures.

More so, Christian salvation isn't dependent on decisionism rather actual spiritual power from God in effect with Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. Again, you can change your mind to agree with Christianity and it's core teaching on salvation, but that is only a sufficient extract from what is caused. And that cause is a transformation of heart. In that the mind will change but it is further transformed once the heart is, or perhaps it's a transformation that occurs at the same time?
CosmicAlfonzo
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8/5/2011 1:44:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Basically, you become even more pretentious about morality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/5/2011 5:32:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/5/2011 12:30:48 PM, GodSands wrote:
Reply: it does not describe someone being a moral nut, it describes the changing within an individual's moral compass and why that change takes place. It was very clear and it explains the knowledge you seek, which answers your question.

I would advise not to mock that which you do not understand, just because you don't understand it. Keep trying to figure it out until the meaning makes sense to you, even if you do not agree with it. Once you do this, then we can continue this pleasant discussion.


You explained how ones moral compass changes, and when one becomes a Christian that does happen, but it isn't the essence of the conversion. The moral change is mere sufficient, just like if I were to fry an egg, heat is necessary but the temperature of the heat is sufficient. So when one is converted, their moral compass changes or rather transforms. I wouldn't use the word change, since there view is totally different is accordance to morality. If my moral compass simply changed, then my moral compass would be a secular one, just considered a fairly good secular compass. A Christian moral compass says no to all evil and immoral deeds, not just some like theft, but things like sexual immorality and cursing. Thus it is more of a transformation. Given that, the Bible actually refers to those born again as new creatures.

More so, Christian salvation isn't dependent on decisionism rather actual spiritual power from God in effect with Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. Again, you can change your mind to agree with Christianity and it's core teaching on salvation, but that is only a sufficient extract from what is caused. And that cause is a transformation of heart. In that the mind will change but it is further transformed once the heart is, or perhaps it's a transformation that occurs at the same time?

Reply:

1.) Transformation is change, no matter how you want to look at it. Transformation is just another word for change, though it is commonly used to define a high degree of change. That's a fact.

2.) You are creating a certain list of positive or negative choices and labeling them as a "Christian Moral Compass". Call it what you want respectively, but the only person making those changes and those decisions is you. Your choices will forever be reflected within God's Law. God's Law doesn't judge it just IS. Why would God create a system where things have to be judged? Go would have no reason to do this. God made a system that has universal laws which run the system autonomously. A moral compass is a set of choices that an individual decides to live by. These can be positive or negative respectively. The transformation you speak of is experienced as such, because of an individuals openness to change in that specific way. People have such transformations abut many different perspectives throughout there lives and it is not unique to Christianity or the "Christian Moral Compass" that you speak of. Many transformations will happen in your mind and heart through all of your lives. Feeling a positive connection to a spiritual system is usually a common transformation among people. Another common transformation usually happens when people decide to have children.

May Light and Love brighten your path.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."