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The Crucifixion

Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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8/6/2011 11:46:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Its iron age logic, it is obviously not true, now move on to reality.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/6/2011 11:48:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jesus didn't die for our sins. He died BECAUSE of our sins(and I use the word "our" loosely).

He martyred himself because he wanted to deliver a message. A message of hippie bro love, and a call for people to stop taking things so seriously that they start killing each other of make believe sh!t.

Unfortunately, the people that followed him were so heavily indoctrinated that most of what Jesus said was alien. He made matters worse by speaking in riddles, so that only people with the prerequisite knowledge could understand... And also probably to delay his execution for being a raging heretic..

Jesus had to work the beliefs of the people at the time in order to preach a far more meaningful message than what they were used to hearing. He kept it real, but he didn't have a lot of room in order to work freely and as effectively as he could.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/6/2011 11:53:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 11:44:33 AM, Rusty wrote:
Have you been here?

http://home.messiah.edu...

He's pretty smart when it comes to theories of atonement.

Though I'm not necessarily endorsing the Incarnational theory. It mentions some of the other ones such as penal substitution. I've seen one paper, actually a powerpoint, that went over the classic views in more depth but I can't seem to remember where I found it. I'll link it if I find it.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/6/2011 11:58:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 11:46:52 AM, izbo10 wrote:
Its iron age logic, it is obviously not true, now move on to reality.

Exactly :)
President of DDO
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/6/2011 12:05:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable.:

Right, which insinuates that the propensity to sin was imparted in to mankind, and not a conscious decision that mankind makes. That would implicate God as the reason why sin exists. So God creates man sinfully, and then offers the cure to his own disease. Sounds like a raw deal to me.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?:

According to the bible, sin has to be paid, whether by punishment or absolved through ritual sacrifice. Before Jesus, man had to make continual sacrifices (why blood and guts and appeals to God is an obvious relic of ancient, pagan religions). So God offers himself as the payment for the sin so that it can be satisfied.

But that just brings up the question why he can't just say, "you're forgiven" without massacring Jesus in the process, or perhaps more importantly, why a blood atonement has to exist at all.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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8/6/2011 12:08:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:05:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable.:

Right, which insinuates that the propensity to sin was imparted in to mankind, and not a conscious decision that mankind makes. That would implicate God as the reason why sin exists. So God creates man sinfully, and then offers the cure to his own disease. Sounds like a raw deal to me.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?:

According to the bible, sin has to be paid, whether by punishment or absolved through ritual sacrifice. Before Jesus, man had to make continual sacrifices (why blood and guts and appeals to God is an obvious relic of ancient, pagan religions). So God offers himself as the payment for the sin so that it can be satisfied.

But that just brings up the question why he can't just say, "you're forgiven" without massacring Jesus in the process, or perhaps more importantly, why a blood atonement has to exist at all.

For once I agree with an agnostic.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/6/2011 12:26:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:05:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
But that just brings up the question why he can't just say, "you're forgiven" without massacring Jesus in the process, or perhaps more importantly, why a blood atonement has to exist at all.

Which only adds more credibility to my own understanding, because the alternative is patently absurd.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/6/2011 2:08:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:08:09 PM, izbo10 wrote:
For once I agree with an agnostic.

What are you? I'm an agnostic atheist. I imagine most theists are agnostic theists.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/6/2011 2:19:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One thing I would like to know is that since most Christians do not take the Bible literally, most acknowledge the Creation story as an obvious myth (especially if they believe in evolution). In that case, the entire concept of sin and Original Sin in general becomes a bit cloudy, giving more merit to the questions about sin, free will, Hell, etc. and why Jesus dying for our sins makes sense.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/6/2011 2:31:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 2:08:46 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/6/2011 12:08:09 PM, izbo10 wrote:
For once I agree with an agnostic.

What are you? I'm an agnostic atheist. I imagine most theists are agnostic theists.

Actually, despite the faith doctrine, most Christians I know claim to "know" that god exists.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/6/2011 2:32:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
While we're on the topic, why did god have to kill Jesus? Was he incapable of forgiveness before then?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/6/2011 2:47:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 2:32:33 PM, wjmelements wrote:
While we're on the topic, why did god have to kill Jesus? Was he incapable of forgiveness before then?

One answer could be so Jesus could experience human suffering.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/6/2011 8:40:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hitchens on vicarious redemption starts at the 3 min mark.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/14/2011 9:59:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/15/2011 5:07:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/14/2011 9:59:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.

I honestly do not understand. Sorry.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/15/2011 5:10:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:07:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/14/2011 9:59:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.

I honestly do not understand. Sorry.

Not too bright are you?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/15/2011 5:13:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:10:10 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:07:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/14/2011 9:59:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.

I honestly do not understand. Sorry.

Not too bright are you?

I am very bright, in at least the top 3% of the population for IQ.

Why does God has to suffer, why can't he just forgive us? Why do we have to suffer, why do we need to be forgiven for sins that are not ours?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/15/2011 5:19:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:13:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:10:10 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:07:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/14/2011 9:59:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.

I honestly do not understand. Sorry.

Not too bright are you?

I am very bright, in at least the top 3% of the population for IQ.

Why does God has to suffer, why can't he just forgive us? Why do we have to suffer, why do we need to be forgiven for sins that are not ours?

How can He give us free will UNLESS He enables people to sin?

Because He is good He suffers whilst bearing our sins..

He does forgive us IF we forgive others..

We have ALL sinned.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/15/2011 5:23:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:19:13 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

How can He give us free will UNLESS He enables people to sin?

Because He is good He suffers whilst bearing our sins..

He does forgive us IF we forgive others..

We have ALL sinned.

Hold on, under your system we don't have free will. We can't avoid sin. We can make a superficial choice to accept Jesus, but our natures reject God.

Why does God bear our sins... what does that even mean?

How does the crucifixtion allows us a loop hole?

These are all quite basic questions.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/15/2011 5:36:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:23:57 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:19:13 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

How can He give us free will UNLESS He enables people to sin?

Because He is good He suffers whilst bearing our sins..

He does forgive us IF we forgive others..

We have ALL sinned.

Hold on, under your system we don't have free will. We can't avoid sin. We can make a superficial choice to accept Jesus, but our natures reject God.

We can repent (agree with God in our hearts) and that smallest of choices will permeate through out our lives.. God sees our desire and if it is for Him He'll change us.. if it is for ourselves He'll leave us to ourselves.. Forever.

Why does God bear our sins... what does that even mean?

How can anyone do anything without God enabling them? I mean movement etc?
All things work through Him and by His power.. So, when someone sins God has to give them the power to do this and it is AGONY for Him.

How does the crucifixtion allows us a loop hole?

It's a visible picture of the invisible God; so by accepting this picture we can KNOW God, be in relationship with Him, be ALIVE!

These are all quite basic questions.

The're good questions..
The Cross.. the Cross.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/15/2011 8:51:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:05:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable.:

Right, which insinuates that the propensity to sin was imparted in to mankind, and not a conscious decision that mankind makes. That would implicate God as the reason why sin exists. So God creates man sinfully, and then offers the cure to his own disease. Sounds like a raw deal to me.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?:

According to the bible, sin has to be paid, whether by punishment or absolved through ritual sacrifice. Before Jesus, man had to make continual sacrifices (why blood and guts and appeals to God is an obvious relic of ancient, pagan religions). So God offers himself as the payment for the sin so that it can be satisfied.

But that just brings up the question why he can't just say, "you're forgiven" without massacring Jesus in the process, or perhaps more importantly, why a blood atonement has to exist at all.

Because man, if to be saved, HAD to be justified through the death of another, that being God Himself as Jesus Christ. For man brought death into the world, or more bluntly put, God brought death into the world through man, and thus God brings and destroys the power of death through a man of Jesus Christ. For it is not the bloody death of Jesus Christ that is the real key in the forgiveness of man, but it is the more illusive punishment that Jesus Christ endures. The wrath of God Almighty was totally satisfied within the death of Jesus Christ, for He was God, and Jesus Christ being God was able to with stand the wrath of God within Himself. God could not just forgive without a sacrifice for by doing that, it would go against God's very nature and character, just like if a judge was to let a criminal free without justice, it would be a crime within a crime. God is not determined by any law either, but it is that the laws are God's and if God was to forgive us with justification, then that would be inconsistent within Himself as God. For the laws reflect the nature of God, God does not hold debt to them or us.
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/15/2011 8:44:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:19:13 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:13:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:10:10 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:07:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/14/2011 9:59:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/8/2011 5:27:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/6/2011 10:58:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I do not understand what is the most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity. The Crucifixion or more specifically that Jesus died for our sins.

Now bear with me, whenever I ask a question of Christians I get four replies and 8 different competing versions. But this is what I 'understand'.

So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable. Jesus dies for our sins, and this wipes the slate clean.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?

Or rather how does God, pretending to die on the cross, cause him to forgive us our crimes which he wanted us to commit.

I do not understand, I submit myself to your wisdom.

By sinning Adam lost relationship with God, he instead started comparing himself to Eve to be 'good in relation to' her.

When we examine the cross of Christ we are actually seeing a physical representation of the Father;
By giving us free-will He has put Himself at OUR mercy.. (Jesus CHOSE freely to go to the cross)
He suffers with our sins because He BEARS the weight of them: He enables the prison gang rape and it is AGONY for Him..
From this position of agony God the Father BLESSES us ALL; with rain, sunshine, food, knowledge, relationships etc, JUST as Christ blessed from the cross:

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


And Lastly, God THIRSTS! He thirsts for His creation to love one another, for the strong to serve the weak, for husbands to love their wives and vice versa.. but instead we give Him adultery, war, incest, rape, crime etc etc:

John 19:28-30
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.

I honestly do not understand. Sorry.

Not too bright are you?

I am very bright, in at least the top 3% of the population for IQ.

Why does God has to suffer, why can't he just forgive us? Why do we have to suffer, why do we need to be forgiven for sins that are not ours?

How can He give us free will UNLESS He enables people to sin?

Because He is good He suffers whilst bearing our sins..

He does forgive us IF we forgive others..

We have ALL sinned.

Isn't him enabling us to sin making him imperfect and thus negating the idea of him wholly?
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/15/2011 8:50:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 8:51:05 AM, GodSands wrote:
At 8/6/2011 12:05:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
So Adam was created without sin, but he fell, and we are all born with sin... and/or a propensity to commit sin. To the Christian sin is inevitable.:

Right, which insinuates that the propensity to sin was imparted in to mankind, and not a conscious decision that mankind makes. That would implicate God as the reason why sin exists. So God creates man sinfully, and then offers the cure to his own disease. Sounds like a raw deal to me.

How does Jesus dying on the cross absolve us of sin?:

According to the bible, sin has to be paid, whether by punishment or absolved through ritual sacrifice. Before Jesus, man had to make continual sacrifices (why blood and guts and appeals to God is an obvious relic of ancient, pagan religions). So God offers himself as the payment for the sin so that it can be satisfied.

But that just brings up the question why he can't just say, "you're forgiven" without massacring Jesus in the process, or perhaps more importantly, why a blood atonement has to exist at all.

Because man, if to be saved, HAD to be justified through the death of another, that being God Himself as Jesus Christ. For man brought death into the world, or more bluntly put, God brought death into the world through man, and thus God brings and destroys the power of death through a man of Jesus Christ. For it is not the bloody death of Jesus Christ that is the real key in the forgiveness of man, but it is the more illusive punishment that Jesus Christ endures. The wrath of God Almighty was totally satisfied within the death of Jesus Christ, for He was God, and Jesus Christ being God was able to with stand the wrath of God within Himself. God could not just forgive without a sacrifice for by doing that, it would go against God's very nature and character, just like if a judge was to let a criminal free without justice, it would be a crime within a crime. God is not determined by any law either, but it is that the laws are God's and if God was to forgive us with justification, then that would be inconsistent within Himself as God. For the laws reflect the nature of God, God does not hold debt to them or us.

Wait a second, so your saying if went and murdered someone and was given the death penalty. And instead my father sat in the electric chair (or even visa versa) than justice has been served for the person whom had been murdered?

By that argument a Christian can pray and say "No father don't punish this atheist for his denial of you and hes refusal to repent his sins, punish me instead" and take on eternal agony to allow me to go to heaven. But then isn't that considered the ultimate sacrifice? Will that person go to heaven for giving up his spot in heaven for a heathen such as myself?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/16/2011 5:53:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 8:44:20 PM, Steve0Yea wrote:
So, by accepting this 'Image' of the Father we come back into relationship with Him.

If we mess up and upset our wife/husband etc and 'see' what we have done and say 'I shouldn't have said/done that, I should have.. Sorry' We stay in relation to them and their truth.. if, however we refuse to accept their hurt, their truth, we are no longer in relation and will very soon be out of the relationship completely.

THIS is the GOOD NEWS; the Gospel! God is GOOD!

I would really like a response on this, especially from C_N.

I honestly do not understand. Sorry.

Not too bright are you?

I am very bright, in at least the top 3% of the population for IQ.

Why does God has to suffer, why can't he just forgive us? Why do we have to suffer, why do we need to be forgiven for sins that are not ours?

How can He give us free will UNLESS He enables people to sin?

Because He is good He suffers whilst bearing our sins..

He does forgive us IF we forgive others..

We have ALL sinned.

Isn't him enabling us to sin making him imperfect and thus negating the idea of him wholly?

He doesn't want us to sin, but our free will is paramount to Him, so He enables us and it is AGONY to Him.
The Cross.. the Cross.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/16/2011 9:57:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
But that just brings up the question why he can't just say, "you're forgiven" without massacring Jesus in the process, or perhaps more importantly, why a blood atonement has to exist at all.

Because man, if to be saved, HAD to be justified through the death of another, that being God Himself as Jesus Christ.:

That doesn't even remotely answer the heart of the question at all. WHY did God make blood and gore (even with animal sacrifices) a necessary component for forgiveness to begin with? It didn't ever have to be that way, which means this is simply what God wants -- blood atonement.

The problem is, ritual sacrificing predates Judaism. This is an instance where ancient, pagan practices were absorbed in to early Israelite customs and then synthesized in to their own version of appeasement.

Now thousands of years after the fact, you're simply none the wiser to ever even ask the question. Instead you unload a meaningless diatribe of tired and worn out apologetics that don't even come close to answering the OP. It's so predictable and unoriginal and easily refuted.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/16/2011 9:59:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
He doesn't want us to sin, but our free will is paramount to Him, so He enables us and it is AGONY to Him.:

Agony? Give me a f*cking break. Show me where in the bible he agonizes over it and I'll show you 10 instances where he revels in spite and torture.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)