Total Posts:13|Showing Posts:1-13
Jump to topic:

Pre-Fall Children/Eve's Curse

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 11:05:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
According to Genesis 3:16 God curses Eve by saying,

"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;"

Eve's pre-existing pains are increased, she is not blessed with the ability to fall pregnant and give birth. Rather a pre-existing capacitiy is made (more) painful.

This implies that Eve could, and in fact did have kids before the fall.

What happened to these children? Would such children have original sin, being born prior to Adam's scrumping?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 11:52:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 11:05:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
According to Genesis 3:16 God curses Eve by saying,

"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;"

Eve's pre-existing pains are increased, she is not blessed with the ability to fall pregnant and give birth. Rather a pre-existing capacitiy is made (more) painful.

This implies that Eve could, and in fact did have kids before the fall.

What happened to these children? Would such children have original sin, being born prior to Adam's scrumping?:

It could mean that, but I doubt it. You have consider the target audience of Moses (or whoever the author actually was). It was a lame explanation for why child birth hurts, as if pushing a watermellon through an opening the size of a golfball needs explanation.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 11:53:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You have to understand it is a made up story and the author didn't think about that and find it important.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 11:55:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The fall of man probably happened very quickly given humanities knack for screwing everything up.

I doubt Eve could have lasted 9 months without fuggin up. Though, had she, birth would have been like taking a pleasant dump.

No, but seriously, that whole story is a parable.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 11:59:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 11:55:11 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The fall of man probably happened very quickly given humanities knack for screwing everything up.

I doubt Eve could have lasted 9 months without fuggin up. Though, had she, birth would have been like taking a pleasant dump.


No, but seriously, that whole story is a parable.

I think that is giving it too much credit it is a pure work of fiction. I would love to hear the lesson supposedly learned from it, maybe that we should all try to be as stupid as possible?
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 12:00:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.blueletterbible.org...

Wouldn't some definitions work? I'm not convinced of the literal interpretation, but that might be one way of dealing with that if I had to. That being said, I'm not really sure how I'd go about attempting to prove what definition of the word the author intended to use off the top of my head.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 12:04:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 11:59:36 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:55:11 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The fall of man probably happened very quickly given humanities knack for screwing everything up.

I doubt Eve could have lasted 9 months without fuggin up. Though, had she, birth would have been like taking a pleasant dump.


No, but seriously, that whole story is a parable.

I think that is giving it too much credit it is a pure work of fiction. I would love to hear the lesson supposedly learned from it, maybe that we should all try to be as stupid as possible?

By calling it a parable, it was implied that the story is fictional.

Sure, you can take it as "try to be as stupid as possible". Some have. What tree did Adam and Eve eat from?

There are other ways of understanding it, but you'd be very wrong if you believed that you couldn't learn something from a work of fiction.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 12:06:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:04:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:59:36 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:55:11 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The fall of man probably happened very quickly given humanities knack for screwing everything up.

I doubt Eve could have lasted 9 months without fuggin up. Though, had she, birth would have been like taking a pleasant dump.


No, but seriously, that whole story is a parable.

I think that is giving it too much credit it is a pure work of fiction. I would love to hear the lesson supposedly learned from it, maybe that we should all try to be as stupid as possible?

By calling it a parable, it was implied that the story is fictional.

Sure, you can take it as "try to be as stupid as possible". Some have. What tree did Adam and Eve eat from?

There are other ways of understanding it, but you'd be very wrong if you believed that you couldn't learn something from a work of fiction.

You can learn stuff from fiction, but a parable meant it was intended as a lesson and this was most likely their understanding of the beginning when it was written.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 12:08:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:00:02 PM, Rusty wrote:
http://www.blueletterbible.org...

Wouldn't some definitions work? I'm not convinced of the literal interpretation, but that might be one way of dealing with that if I had to. That being said, I'm not really sure how I'd go about attempting to prove what definition of the word the author intended to use off the top of my head.

Here's one idea, which may or may not be true. Maybe that particular word is mostly used when referring to generations. For that reason, the word might most often be found as a "multiplying" increase, given how people are supposed to "multiply" from a large scale viewpoint. Maybe these particular translators overlooked this (if it's true) and used the wrong definition of the word, which might explain why some translations don't use the word "multiply", instead dealing with more of an "increase" definition of the word, which seems to be a possible definition from the link I gave you.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 12:16:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One more thing to consider, C_N. According to Judeo-Christian folklore, life was designed to be utopia. That was the plan until mankind screwed it up. Speaking strictly from a literary point of view, terms of increasing pain is a way to show that now life would be very different from how it was originally supposed to be... not that there was a race of people before the Fall. From a biblical narrative, there's no support for that.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/6/2011 12:24:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 12:06:23 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/6/2011 12:04:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:59:36 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:55:11 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The fall of man probably happened very quickly given humanities knack for screwing everything up.

I doubt Eve could have lasted 9 months without fuggin up. Though, had she, birth would have been like taking a pleasant dump.


No, but seriously, that whole story is a parable.

I think that is giving it too much credit it is a pure work of fiction. I would love to hear the lesson supposedly learned from it, maybe that we should all try to be as stupid as possible?

By calling it a parable, it was implied that the story is fictional.

Sure, you can take it as "try to be as stupid as possible". Some have. What tree did Adam and Eve eat from?

There are other ways of understanding it, but you'd be very wrong if you believed that you couldn't learn something from a work of fiction.


You can learn stuff from fiction, but a parable meant it was intended as a lesson and this was most likely their understanding of the beginning when it was written.

The story was intended as a lesson, of this I am reasonably certain. A clear indicator is the liberal use of symbolism.

That said, a literal interpretation will always reinforce an understandably negative bias when it comes to the bible. You have to look at the texts for what they are. The bible is very important from a historical and anthropological perspective.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Gypsy-magick
Posts: 4
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2011 6:43:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it was the "tree of knowledge and yes it was your gods full intention to keep them as stupid as possible

At 8/6/2011 12:06:23 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/6/2011 12:04:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:59:36 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/6/2011 11:55:11 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The fall of man probably happened very quickly given humanities knack for screwing everything up.

I doubt Eve could have lasted 9 months without fuggin up. Though, had she, birth would have been like taking a pleasant dump.


No, but seriously, that whole story is a parable.

I think that is giving it too much credit it is a pure work of fiction. I would love to hear the lesson supposedly learned from it, maybe that we should all try to be as stupid as possible?

By calling it a parable, it was implied that the story is fictional.

Sure, you can take it as "try to be as stupid as possible". Some have. What tree did Adam and Eve eat from?

There are other ways of understanding it, but you'd be very wrong if you believed that you couldn't learn something from a work of fiction.


You can learn stuff from fiction, but a parable meant it was intended as a lesson and this was most likely their understanding of the beginning when it was written.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2011 5:32:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/6/2011 11:05:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
According to Genesis 3:16 God curses Eve by saying,

"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;"

Eve's pre-existing pains are increased, she is not blessed with the ability to fall pregnant and give birth. Rather a pre-existing capacitiy is made (more) painful.

This implies that Eve could, and in fact did have kids before the fall.

What happened to these children? Would such children have original sin, being born prior to Adam's scrumping?

It implies she could but NOT that she did.
The Cross.. the Cross.