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Does evil disprove God?

Dan4reason
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8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?
inferno
Posts: 10,628
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8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.
inferno
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8/9/2011 5:21:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Who are you to define who and what God is ? He made you and he can denounce you like a fly. You have no respect for the Living God, and none for yourself.
For the fool says in his heart, that there is no God. You know exactly what you are now if you did not before.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/9/2011 5:40:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?:

No, nothing can disprove God (simply because nothing can disprove a negative), but it certainly lends credence to the notion that it's an absurdity.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
inferno
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8/9/2011 5:42:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
An absurdity to those who lack the understanding of The Almighty. It is all about perception my friend. Your negative views and ideology are highly irrelevent to those who are believers. You are making a fool out of yourself daily and the world thinks so too.
inferno
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8/9/2011 5:43:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:40:37 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?:

No, nothing can disprove God (simply because nothing can disprove a negative), but it certainly lends credence to the notion that it's an absurdity.

The harsh reality is that the world is NOT on your side. And after all these years you would think Atheists would know better. But sadly they operate in ignorance and are victims of their own insanity.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 5:44:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:40:37 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?:

No, nothing can disprove God (simply because nothing can disprove a negative), but it certainly lends credence to the notion that it's an absurdity.

Not true, you can prove a negative to the degree that you can prove a positive (like I can prove there is no elephant in my room).

However, Being able but unwilling doesn't make someone malevolent, it makes them apathetic or indifferent.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/9/2011 5:46:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:21:34 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Who are you to define who and what God is ? He made you and he can denounce you like a fly. You have no respect for the Living God, and none for yourself.
For the fool says in his heart, that there is no God. You know exactly what you are now if you did not before.

i don't share your assumption of God's existence. To analyse whether this universe conforms to an omnibenevolent God, I have to consider the evidence, and make the best determination I can. Calling non-believers fools is an obvious ad hominem attack. God should know better.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,628
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8/9/2011 5:47:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because of the fact that you DO have free will, it is so much easier to just give your life to Him. It is so simple my friend, it is not even funny. Your only battle with salvation is pride. This is why it is an abomination in Gods eyes. It is a matter of choice. There is nothing hard about that to be quite honest with you.
inferno
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8/9/2011 5:49:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:46:13 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:21:34 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Who are you to define who and what God is ? He made you and he can denounce you like a fly. You have no respect for the Living God, and none for yourself.
For the fool says in his heart, that there is no God. You know exactly what you are now if you did not before.

i don't share your assumption of God's existence. To analyse whether this universe conforms to an omnibenevolent God, I have to consider the evidence, and make the best determination I can. Calling non-believers fools is an obvious ad hominem attack. God should know better.

No Mr Darth Vader. Your definition of who and what God is is once again,
irrelevent. You cannot dictate this as it has been written since the beginning of time.
What you think of wish for does not matter. At the end of the day, you still have a choice. You have chosen to go the other way. That will be your demise if you
do not change your ways.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/9/2011 5:56:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 6:19:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

Then you have faulty reasoning. All that does is show that a God, according to 100% exact biblical definitions is illogical. Of course, if you take that omnipotence can do the illogical by definition (able to do all things), then it is possible of an illogical omnipotent God to exist anyway.

Though you'd be hard pressed to find many people that go by 100% exactly what the bible says (you're also going to have a hard time finding too many people that aren't aware that every book of the bible was written by humans, which are known to make the occasional mistake or generalization).


In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/9/2011 6:31:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

Reply: Yet, it seems that in the Bible your God has punished humans over and over again for their choices and sometimes choices that haven't even been made yet (Great Flood, The curse of Eve). So how is that not effecting free will?

Also, if you say your God knows everything that is going to happen, our "will" must not be free at all, but set in stone. So how is it that you say our will is "free" when God has already written our choices in stone?

Further, why would your God create anything at all when he already knows how everything will all turn out? I see no point in it.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/9/2011 6:32:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:19:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

Then you have faulty reasoning. All that does is show that a God, according to 100% exact biblical definitions is illogical. Of course, if you take that omnipotence can do the illogical by definition (able to do all things), then it is possible of an illogical omnipotent God to exist anyway.

Though you'd be hard pressed to find many people that go by 100% exactly what the bible says (you're also going to have a hard time finding too many people that aren't aware that every book of the bible was written by humans, which are known to make the occasional mistake or generalization).


In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.

Good refutation, an omnipotent being would be able to break the very laws of logic e.g. being omnipotent yet being unable to do some things. So the only way you can defend God's existence from this problem is by claiming that laws of logic can be violated and so God is omnipotent and yet unable to do some things? Good luck. In order to reasonably debate we need objective unbreakable logic. Without it, we can be sure of nothing no matter how proven. How can you ever use a reason-based mindset to justify believing in God if you admit that logic is breakable?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/9/2011 6:33:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No...

It simply means that God, if he exists is either not omnipotent and/or malevolent.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 6:34:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:31:48 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

Reply: Yet, it seems that in the Bible your God has punished humans over and over again for their choices and sometimes choices that haven't even been made yet (Great Flood, The curse of Eve). So how is that not effecting free will?

Also, if you say your God knows everything that is going to happen, our "will" must not be free at all, but set in stone. So how is it that you say our will is "free" when God has already written our choices in stone?

Further, why would your God create anything at all when he already knows how everything will all turn out? I see no point in it.

I don't claim that he knows everything that will ever happen.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 6:38:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:32:02 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:19:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

Then you have faulty reasoning. All that does is show that a God, according to 100% exact biblical definitions is illogical. Of course, if you take that omnipotence can do the illogical by definition (able to do all things), then it is possible of an illogical omnipotent God to exist anyway.

Though you'd be hard pressed to find many people that go by 100% exactly what the bible says (you're also going to have a hard time finding too many people that aren't aware that every book of the bible was written by humans, which are known to make the occasional mistake or generalization).


In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.

Good refutation, an omnipotent being would be able to break the very laws of logic e.g. being omnipotent yet being unable to do some things. So the only way you can defend God's existence from this problem is by claiming that laws of logic can be violated and so God is omnipotent and yet unable to do some things? Good luck. In order to reasonably debate we need objective unbreakable logic. Without it, we can be sure of nothing no matter how proven. How can you ever use a reason-based mindset to justify believing in God if you admit that logic is breakable?

Because I don't believe in a 100% exact biblical view of God (see the first half of my refutation rather than the second half). I see that the bible was writen by man, and so there is the potential of things falsely attributed to God as well as mistranslations over the years, the effects of different times and definition changes over the years (like the word "slave").
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/9/2011 6:54:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:38:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:32:02 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:19:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

Then you have faulty reasoning. All that does is show that a God, according to 100% exact biblical definitions is illogical. Of course, if you take that omnipotence can do the illogical by definition (able to do all things), then it is possible of an illogical omnipotent God to exist anyway.

Though you'd be hard pressed to find many people that go by 100% exactly what the bible says (you're also going to have a hard time finding too many people that aren't aware that every book of the bible was written by humans, which are known to make the occasional mistake or generalization).


In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.

Good refutation, an omnipotent being would be able to break the very laws of logic e.g. being omnipotent yet being unable to do some things. So the only way you can defend God's existence from this problem is by claiming that laws of logic can be violated and so God is omnipotent and yet unable to do some things? Good luck. In order to reasonably debate we need objective unbreakable logic. Without it, we can be sure of nothing no matter how proven. How can you ever use a reason-based mindset to justify believing in God if you admit that logic is breakable?

Because I don't believe in a 100% exact biblical view of God (see the first half of my refutation rather than the second half). I see that the bible was writen by man, and so there is the potential of things falsely attributed to God as well as mistranslations over the years, the effects of different times and definition changes over the years (like the word "slave").

I agree with you completely. I could ask that since the bible is written by man and it already has been proven that it has mistakes, then why does anybody have faith in it. But that is not the point of this debate.

The fact is that you have admitted that while the bible says that God is omnipotent, and this is something believed by practically every Christian, God is not omnipotent.

I find this as a suitable way to slip out if Epicurus's trap. God is not omnipotent, so evil does not disprove his existence.
Dan4reason
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8/9/2011 6:55:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:33:37 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No...

It simply means that God, if he exists is either not omnipotent and/or malevolent.

The God of the bible is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/9/2011 6:59:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:55:52 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:33:37 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No...

It simply means that God, if he exists is either not omnipotent and/or malevolent.

The God of the bible is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

Actually no, the God of the bible is omnipotent, impotent, childish, cruel and loving.

The Bible is incredibly inconsistent on this.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 7:01:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:54:31 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:38:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:32:02 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:19:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

Then you have faulty reasoning. All that does is show that a God, according to 100% exact biblical definitions is illogical. Of course, if you take that omnipotence can do the illogical by definition (able to do all things), then it is possible of an illogical omnipotent God to exist anyway.

Though you'd be hard pressed to find many people that go by 100% exactly what the bible says (you're also going to have a hard time finding too many people that aren't aware that every book of the bible was written by humans, which are known to make the occasional mistake or generalization).


In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.

Good refutation, an omnipotent being would be able to break the very laws of logic e.g. being omnipotent yet being unable to do some things. So the only way you can defend God's existence from this problem is by claiming that laws of logic can be violated and so God is omnipotent and yet unable to do some things? Good luck. In order to reasonably debate we need objective unbreakable logic. Without it, we can be sure of nothing no matter how proven. How can you ever use a reason-based mindset to justify believing in God if you admit that logic is breakable?

Because I don't believe in a 100% exact biblical view of God (see the first half of my refutation rather than the second half). I see that the bible was writen by man, and so there is the potential of things falsely attributed to God as well as mistranslations over the years, the effects of different times and definition changes over the years (like the word "slave").

I agree with you completely. I could ask that since the bible is written by man and it already has been proven that it has mistakes, then why does anybody have faith in it. But that is not the point of this debate.

The fact is that you have admitted that while the bible says that God is omnipotent, and this is something believed by practically every Christian, God is not omnipotent.

I find this as a suitable way to slip out if Epicurus's trap. God is not omnipotent, so evil does not disprove his existence.

God is not Omnipotent by that definition. Though, as already explained, that definition still allows for a God, but an illogical one. That would make sense, since that definition of Omnipotence is illogical, so anything to be that must be illogical.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/9/2011 7:08:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 7:01:55 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:54:31 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:38:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:32:02 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:19:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:11:46 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:46:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:44:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:19:19 PM, inferno wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

Dan. This has already been answered before. The free will that God has given to us cannot be taken away. So the feelings that we have can become negative and positive. You must understand that sin started with the fallen angel once known as Lucifer. He is the one who created this concept of evil which was first represented as envy. He wanted to be God, but he was casted out of Heaven. It was in his mind that caused his own destruction. God can tell you what is right and wrong, but he will never force you to do anything, or disconnect your own thought process.

So God allows evil to exist because without it free will would not exist? So in other words, God has to compromise? In order to attain free will (a very good thing) he has to allow some evil into the picture?

Yet he is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, why can't he eliminate evil without harming free will?

Evil did not exist before Lucifer? Why can't God just take us back to that point?

Because there was no free will back then. And Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do anything (pending the definition that you use), regardless of logic, but that you can do anything that is capable of being done. It is not possible to remove all evil without removing free will, because you have the free choice to do evil things.

I do not care how you or the dictionary defines omnipotence, I care how the bible defines God's omnipotence.

You can look this up, but the bible describes God's omnipotence as the ability to do all things, nothing is too hard for God to do.

Then you have faulty reasoning. All that does is show that a God, according to 100% exact biblical definitions is illogical. Of course, if you take that omnipotence can do the illogical by definition (able to do all things), then it is possible of an illogical omnipotent God to exist anyway.

Though you'd be hard pressed to find many people that go by 100% exactly what the bible says (you're also going to have a hard time finding too many people that aren't aware that every book of the bible was written by humans, which are known to make the occasional mistake or generalization).


In fact one thing that would make omnipotence (ability to do all things) inpossible would be the existence of the impossible. If something is impossible, then there cannot be a person who can do all things.

So in order to get out of the problem of evil, you have to claim that God is not omnipotent. He can only do things for which there is a possible way to do them. There is no way for God to make a world completely good without wiping out free will so he cannot do it.

Good refutation, an omnipotent being would be able to break the very laws of logic e.g. being omnipotent yet being unable to do some things. So the only way you can defend God's existence from this problem is by claiming that laws of logic can be violated and so God is omnipotent and yet unable to do some things? Good luck. In order to reasonably debate we need objective unbreakable logic. Without it, we can be sure of nothing no matter how proven. How can you ever use a reason-based mindset to justify believing in God if you admit that logic is breakable?

Because I don't believe in a 100% exact biblical view of God (see the first half of my refutation rather than the second half). I see that the bible was writen by man, and so there is the potential of things falsely attributed to God as well as mistranslations over the years, the effects of different times and definition changes over the years (like the word "slave").

I agree with you completely. I could ask that since the bible is written by man and it already has been proven that it has mistakes, then why does anybody have faith in it. But that is not the point of this debate.

The fact is that you have admitted that while the bible says that God is omnipotent, and this is something believed by practically every Christian, God is not omnipotent.

I find this as a suitable way to slip out if Epicurus's trap. God is not omnipotent, so evil does not disprove his existence.

God is not Omnipotent by that definition. Though, as already explained, that definition still allows for a God, but an illogical one. That would make sense, since that definition of Omnipotence is illogical, so anything to be that must be illogical.

What do you mean by illogical? Do you mean that God is makes bad choices? Then why call him perfect?
Dan4reason
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8/9/2011 7:09:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 5:56:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No.

Why not?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/9/2011 7:51:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 7:09:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:56:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No.

Why not?

Because it's logically possible that God have a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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8/10/2011 12:02:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 7:51:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/9/2011 7:09:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:56:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No.

Why not?

Because it's logically possible that God have a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil.

Like what? If God hates evil why doesn't he just eradicate it completely? He can do all things right?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/10/2011 12:05:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Maybe evil isn't what you think it is.

Maybe you are only looking at half of what morality is.

Morality is traditionally define as, "What one aught to do"

This is an incomplete statement. Until you add what you wish to accomplish, and what you wish to avoid, it is an absurdity to say that you aught to do anything.

Morality can only be objective from a relative standpoint. There is no total objectivity when it comes to morality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/10/2011 12:25:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 12:02:49 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 7:51:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/9/2011 7:09:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:56:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/9/2011 5:13:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If an all powerful all good God exists, why is there so much evil in the world?

As Epicurus said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Doesn't this argument disprove God?

No.

Why not?

Because it's logically possible that God have a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil.

Like what? If God hates evil why doesn't he just eradicate it completely? He can do all things right?

It really doesn't matter what it is. It could be free will. In any case, you propose that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence so any logically possible scenario in which both God and evil coexist defeat the epicurean argument.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!