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I have a question for my atheist friends.

VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Before I go any further, because of the many ad hom attacks I see in the religion forum, I would like to ask fellow Christians to be respectful to the atheists in this forum. That would be the most Christ-like way to respond.

Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

Before you answer:

1. I know you are an atheist and that you don't believe miracles COULD happen-that is a given being that you are an atheist. Please don't give a straw-man "well, it's not going to happen anyway, so no, I'll always be an atheist." I KNOW you don't believe, that is beside the point. Just consider this a hypothetical question.

2. I'm just as disgusted with fake miracle workers as you are (even more since my faith is being misrepresented). Please don't respond to that straw-man either. For the sake of this discussion, this is a REAL miracle.
Tim_Spin
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8/10/2011 2:30:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

A few conditions would need to be satisfied.

A.- It would have to be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the action performed was anything other than a divinely inspired miracle.

B.- It would have to be proven that the miracle was performed by God, more specifically the Christian God.

Unless both of those conditions are satisfied, I would not.
Astonished, the talent agent asks the man what him and his family call their act.The man responds, "The Aristocrats!"
VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 2:35:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:30:17 PM, Tim_Spin wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

A few conditions would need to be satisfied.

A.- It would have to be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the action performed was anything other than a divinely inspired miracle.

B.- It would have to be proven that the miracle was performed by God, more specifically the Christian God.

Unless both of those conditions are satisfied, I would not.

Those are certainly fair conditions. I had hoped that I had addressed those conditions in my original post. To you what would constitute evidence that the miracle was performed by the Christian God?
freedomsquared
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8/10/2011 2:35:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Raining fire down from the heavens that spells "Go Jesus!"?
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VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 2:41:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:35:44 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
Raining fire down from the heavens that spells "Go Jesus!"?

LOL!

What about healings done in a Christian service? (Of course I'm not talking about the fake stuff!)
Kinesis
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8/10/2011 2:49:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:41:17 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
What about healings done in a Christian service? (Of course I'm not talking about the fake stuff!)

If, for example, people who were prayed for by Christians had a statistically significantly higher rate of recovery from illness than people who were prayed for by followers of other religions, I think that would constitute good evidence for Christianity. Of course, since repeated surveys have shown that prayer has no statistically significant effect on illness whatsoever (it actually makes people slightly worse because of psychological effects), I take this to be a mark against Christianity. Evidence which we would expect to be there if Christianity is true, is not.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk...
Wnope
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8/10/2011 2:54:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Before I go any further, because of the many ad hom attacks I see in the religion forum, I would like to ask fellow Christians to be respectful to the atheists in this forum. That would be the most Christ-like way to respond.

Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?


If the choices are between myself being overcome by a delusion, illusion, and hallucination or receiving a personal performance from god, the creator of the universe, I'd lean towards the former.

I've seen case studies repeatedly of the mentally disturbed or even normal people "seeing" miracles. I have even seen cases of people claiming (and believing) that they can perform miracles. Heck, some people believe they ARE God. I just finished reading case studies of a woman who honestly believed that her prayers kill people, and every time a large number of people die it is because of her prayers.

Instead of being egocentric enough to think that God decided to personally sway my opinion on religion, I would put my first bet on the problem being on my side of the pond. The universe doesn't revolve around me.

I can only assume theists will call me entirely unreasonable for this. I simply hope those involved never succumb to any form of mental illness or delusion, for they have no hope of recovery.

If I notice, however, widespread corroboration of the miracle, then I would be more open to supernatural explanations. As the more likely answers vanish, I would still remain open to other options. For all I know, aliens are pretending to be god and performing scientific tricks we think to be miracles. I've always thought that a great way to take over the world would be for aliens to replicate a "miracle" and claim to be God/Jesus. Every religious person who thinks my above paragraph silly would be working for the aliens from day 1.

I sincerely hope I'm not the only one who takes miracles seriously enough to not assume God doles out services willy-nilly to anyone who isn't a believer.
VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 2:56:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:49:12 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:41:17 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
What about healings done in a Christian service? (Of course I'm not talking about the fake stuff!)

If, for example, people who were prayed for by Christians had a statistically significantly higher rate of recovery from illness than people who were prayed for by followers of other religions, I think that would constitute good evidence for Christianity. Of course, since repeated surveys have shown that prayer has no statistically significant effect on illness whatsoever (it actually makes people slightly worse because of psychological effects), I take this to be a mark against Christianity. Evidence which we would expect to be there if Christianity is true, is not.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk...

What if you saw a limb grow out-like on a person with polio who has a 6-inch difference in leg lenghth?
mattrodstrom
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8/10/2011 3:13:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Before I go any further, because of the many ad hom attacks I see in the religion forum, I would like to ask fellow Christians to be respectful to the atheists in this forum. That would be the most Christ-like way to respond.

Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

Before you answer:

1. I know you are an atheist and that you don't believe miracles COULD happen-that is a given being that you are an atheist. Please don't give a straw-man "well, it's not going to happen anyway, so no, I'll always be an atheist." I KNOW you don't believe, that is beside the point. Just consider this a hypothetical question.

2. I'm just as disgusted with fake miracle workers as you are (even more since my faith is being misrepresented). Please don't respond to that straw-man either. For the sake of this discussion, this is a REAL miracle.

if I truly believed it was not possibly explainable w/o the Supernatural.. then I'd believe in the supernatural..

now... to know it was from "God".. or more specifically the Christian God would require more reason for thinking so..

and then.. if I believed it Was the christian-type "God"... I wouldn't necessarily throw in my lot with him right away.. but I'd have to have some evidence of his being Beneficent in a Manner that I approve!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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8/10/2011 3:22:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Before I go any further, because of the many ad hom attacks I see in the religion forum, I would like to ask fellow Christians to be respectful to the atheists in this forum. That would be the most Christ-like way to respond.

Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

Before you answer:

1. I know you are an atheist and that you don't believe miracles COULD happen-that is a given being that you are an atheist. Please don't give a straw-man "well, it's not going to happen anyway, so no, I'll always be an atheist." I KNOW you don't believe, that is beside the point. Just consider this a hypothetical question.

2. I'm just as disgusted with fake miracle workers as you are (even more since my faith is being misrepresented). Please don't respond to that straw-man either. For the sake of this discussion, this is a REAL miracle.

Sure, I would! If that happens, theists will have shown their burden of proof which is all that is important to me. But of course, it will never happen. Hasn't happened in hundreds of thousands of years of human existence, won't happen now. Nut since it is a purely hypothetical question, my answer is yes. I would believe in whichever religion gives tangible, verifiable, scientific proof that their beliefs are accurate.
Kinesis
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8/10/2011 3:47:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:56:33 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
What if you saw a limb grow out-like on a person with polio who has a 6-inch difference in leg lenghth?

If Christians, and Christians only, had the power to grow people's limbs back, yes, that would provide evidence for Christianity. Of course, this would have to be documented in reputable scientific journals with video footage and plenty of eye witnesses.
ruelariat
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8/10/2011 3:52:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It would take a lot to convince me as I can be skeptical, and even if the Christian god came down into my house and said, "Child! I am GOD! FEAR ME!" and then performed said miracle I would probably come up with many reasons as to why that did not actually happen (hallucination, etc.; this has been previously mentioned in an earlier post). I am not for sure of the lengths the Christian god would have to go to prove the miracle did happen and that its existence is fact. I do believe that it wouldn't waste its time in trying to prove all of that, but if this hypothetical situation did occur and the Christian god was trying avidly to prove its existence to me then I would found out how far it would have to go to convince me. But until such a situation does occur, I do not know of the lengths.

Now, as you said, this is a hypothetical question you're asking. Let's say that I was convinced a miracle had occured and the Christian god did exist. I would become Agnostic. I believe there to be too many things wrong with Christianity and its counterparts for me to be part of its religion. I would rather not go into the details as this will start an arguement, but I will try to explain myself upon anyone's insistence.
Tim_Spin
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8/10/2011 4:07:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:56:33 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:49:12 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:41:17 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
What about healings done in a Christian service? (Of course I'm not talking about the fake stuff!)

If, for example, people who were prayed for by Christians had a statistically significantly higher rate of recovery from illness than people who were prayed for by followers of other religions, I think that would constitute good evidence for Christianity. Of course, since repeated surveys have shown that prayer has no statistically significant effect on illness whatsoever (it actually makes people slightly worse because of psychological effects), I take this to be a mark against Christianity. Evidence which we would expect to be there if Christianity is true, is not.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk...

What if you saw a limb grow out-like on a person with polio who has a 6-inch difference in leg lenghth?

If the limb grew back without any medical interference with a tatto predicting major events in the near future, that would seem like good evidence to go off of.
Astonished, the talent agent asks the man what him and his family call their act.The man responds, "The Aristocrats!"
VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 4:10:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 3:52:25 PM, ruelariat wrote:
It would take a lot to convince me as I can be skeptical, and even if the Christian god came down into my house and said, "Child! I am GOD! FEAR ME!" and then performed said miracle I would probably come up with many reasons as to why that did not actually happen (hallucination, etc.; this has been previously mentioned in an earlier post). I am not for sure of the lengths the Christian god would have to go to prove the miracle did happen and that its existence is fact. I do believe that it wouldn't waste its time in trying to prove all of that, but if this hypothetical situation did occur and the Christian god was trying avidly to prove its existence to me then I would found out how far it would have to go to convince me. But until such a situation does occur, I do not know of the lengths.

Now, as you said, this is a hypothetical question you're asking. Let's say that I was convinced a miracle had occured and the Christian god did exist. I would become Agnostic. I believe there to be too many things wrong with Christianity and its counterparts for me to be part of its religion. I would rather not go into the details as this will start an arguement, but I will try to explain myself upon anyone's insistence.

I'm all ears. I believe based on what you see from some who call themselves Christian, you probably have some legitimate issues.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 4:16:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why would I sign up to be a slave just because the people wanting to enslave me could suddenly do magic?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Wnope
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8/10/2011 4:23:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 4:16:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why would I sign up to be a slave just because the people wanting to enslave me could suddenly do magic?

Because now you know that if you don't become a slave, your @ss is one lightning bolt away from everlasting pain.
Indophile
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8/10/2011 4:26:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:35:02 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:30:17 PM, Tim_Spin wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

A few conditions would need to be satisfied.

A.- It would have to be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the action performed was anything other than a divinely inspired miracle.

B.- It would have to be proven that the miracle was performed by God, more specifically the Christian God.

Unless both of those conditions are satisfied, I would not.

Those are certainly fair conditions. I had hoped that I had addressed those conditions in my original post. To you what would constitute evidence that the miracle was performed by the Christian God?

I don't need no miracles. Your Christian God could just change my mental make-up so that I wake up an atheist no more and become a devout Christian. Oh, that would be a miracle.
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VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 4:31:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 4:16:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why would I sign up to be a slave just because the people wanting to enslave me could suddenly do magic?

Please explain?
Tim_Spin
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8/10/2011 4:52:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 4:31:36 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/10/2011 4:16:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why would I sign up to be a slave just because the people wanting to enslave me could suddenly do magic?

Please explain?

Belief in existence =/= Affection, love, or readiness to worship
Astonished, the talent agent asks the man what him and his family call their act.The man responds, "The Aristocrats!"
OMGJustinBieber
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8/10/2011 5:04:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In a word, yes.

It probably wouldn't happen immediately, like any enormous shock, but if something seriously shakes one's worldview I don't see how anyone who acknowledges evidence could ignore that.
VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/10/2011 5:06:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 4:52:03 PM, Tim_Spin wrote:
At 8/10/2011 4:31:36 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/10/2011 4:16:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why would I sign up to be a slave just because the people wanting to enslave me could suddenly do magic?

Please explain?

Belief in existence =/= Affection, love, or readiness to worship

I agree. I was particularly interested in the word "enslave."
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/10/2011 5:09:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?:

That's a bit of a tautology. Since you met all the requirements are met, obviously, yes. The more pertinent questions would be how I could reasonably determine that it was a "genuine" miracle versus magic. David Blaine certainly looks as if he's performing legitimate miracles, but it's all slight of hand.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Tim_Spin
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8/10/2011 5:10:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 5:06:56 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/10/2011 4:52:03 PM, Tim_Spin wrote:
At 8/10/2011 4:31:36 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/10/2011 4:16:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why would I sign up to be a slave just because the people wanting to enslave me could suddenly do magic?

Please explain?

Belief in existence =/= Affection, love, or readiness to worship

I agree. I was particularly interested in the word "enslave."

A lot of nontheists see God as the ultimate slave master. In Christian theology, you must believe and accept certain tenets or you burn forever. It's like the thought police from 1984 but a million times worse.
Astonished, the talent agent asks the man what him and his family call their act.The man responds, "The Aristocrats!"
FREEDO
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8/10/2011 5:30:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Before I go any further, because of the many ad hom attacks I see in the religion forum, I would like to ask fellow Christians to be respectful to the atheists in this forum. That would be the most Christ-like way to respond.

Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

Before you answer:

1. I know you are an atheist and that you don't believe miracles COULD happen-that is a given being that you are an atheist. Please don't give a straw-man "well, it's not going to happen anyway, so no, I'll always be an atheist." I KNOW you don't believe, that is beside the point. Just consider this a hypothetical question.

2. I'm just as disgusted with fake miracle workers as you are (even more since my faith is being misrepresented). Please don't respond to that straw-man either. For the sake of this discussion, this is a REAL miracle.

I rethink my opinion constantly. My skepticisms are always philosophically based though. What appears to physically happen is of little concern to me. Not only do I not believe in miracles but I don't place belief, per say, in anything happening at all. However, if I hypothesized the credibility of what had happened upon the given assumption of physical reality and came to the conclusion that it was miraculous, I would give more serious thought to my Christian Existentialism I have played around with but would still most likely conclude the miracle happened through some other means.

Hard to say. I'm a very unpredictable person. Perhaps I would be over taken by emotion.
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GodSands
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8/10/2011 6:22:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:30:17 PM, Tim_Spin wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:21:32 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
Now to my question to atheists:

If you saw a genuine miracle like those recorded in the Bible, that was done in the name of Jesus, would you reconsider your views and possibly become a Christian?

A few conditions would need to be satisfied.

A.- It would have to be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the action performed was anything other than a divinely inspired miracle.

B.- It would have to be proven that the miracle was performed by God, more specifically the Christian God.

Unless both of those conditions are satisfied, I would not.

Yes these were covered in the original post. In that, if you knew that the miracle was real and genuine, would you think twice about your atheistic beliefs?
GeoLaureate8
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8/10/2011 6:24:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Christopher Hitchens answer to a similar question:

Theist: Do you believe that that God if he's provided everything for you, has rights on your life?

Hitchens: No, why should he? What gives him this right.

Theist: Because he owns you, he's created everything for you, he's kept you alive.

Hitchens: Well I don't want to be owned and I don't recognized anyone's right to own me. I wrote my book exactly to teach people to emancipate themselves from the man-made slavery of religion, and you're giving me the perfect example. I don't acknowledge anyone's ownership of myself.

Theist: I know you don't acknowledge it, but what if he is God?

Hitchens: And suppose that I grant your premise about him having made me and even treated me well, that still doesn't give anyone ownership rights.

Theist: Ok, so even though he keeps you alive, he causes you to breathe, he provides you food and everything that is good [Hitchens: so you say] he doesn't have any rights to tell you what to do.

Hitchens: Does that mean that the people who are sick and poor and hungry are excused of this obligation of thanking someone brokenly for owning them?

Theist: Alright, So here's question number three of our little game show "What If?" with our special guest Christopher Hitchens, the author of "God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons EVERYTHING" which is I hope a hyperbole. But even so...

Hitchens: No it isn't, no it isn't. Not if it postulates that I'm someone who is owned by someone else.

Theist: Alright. What if there's a judgement day sir, just what if, how do you think you'd do on that day, sir?

Hitchens: Well I'd ask "by what right?" The most ancient question is still "quo moranto," by what right. This right can't just be assumed.

Theist: Sir, is it possible that the reason you rage so much against God is because you just want to live your own autonomous way living anyway that you want to, any lifestyle that you prefer without being accountable to your creator?

Hitchens: I think that's highly probable, yes.
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GodSands
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8/10/2011 6:36:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 6:24:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Christopher Hitchens answer to a similar question:

Theist: Do you believe that that God if he's provided everything for you, has rights on your life?

Hitchens: No, why should he? What gives him this right.

Theist: Because he owns you, he's created everything for you, he's kept you alive.

Hitchens: Well I don't want to be owned and I don't recognized anyone's right to own me. I wrote my book exactly to teach people to emancipate themselves from the man-made slavery of religion, and you're giving me the perfect example. I don't acknowledge anyone's ownership of myself.

Theist: I know you don't acknowledge it, but what if he is God?

Hitchens: And suppose that I grant your premise about him having made me and even treated me well, that still doesn't give anyone ownership rights.

Theist: Ok, so even though he keeps you alive, he causes you to breathe, he provides you food and everything that is good [Hitchens: so you say] he doesn't have any rights to tell you what to do.

Hitchens: Does that mean that the people who are sick and poor and hungry are excused of this obligation of thanking someone brokenly for owning them?

Theist: Alright, So here's question number three of our little game show "What If?" with our special guest Christopher Hitchens, the author of "God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons EVERYTHING" which is I hope a hyperbole. But even so...

Hitchens: No it isn't, no it isn't. Not if it postulates that I'm someone who is owned by someone else.

Theist: Alright. What if there's a judgement day sir, just what if, how do you think you'd do on that day, sir?

Hitchens: Well I'd ask "by what right?" The most ancient question is still "quo moranto," by what right. This right can't just be assumed.

Theist: Sir, is it possible that the reason you rage so much against God is because you just want to live your own autonomous way living anyway that you want to, any lifestyle that you prefer without being accountable to your creator?

Hitchens: I think that's highly probable, yes.

I'm going by what Hitchens said first:

Given that Hitchens world view is true (strong atheism) then what meaning does the word 'should' have? No God, no should, right? Yes, ok, human authority exists, but so, what man says in ethical terms isn't final or particularly objectively accurate. The word 'should' makes no sense in an atheistic world view!

More so, after read the conversation, it is Hitchens pride that feeds his beliefs, not his beliefs that feed his pride. That goes for all of you that object against such a God as Jesus Christ. And another thing, Hitchen would simply melt when faced God due to His a fraction of his glory.
tornshoe92
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8/10/2011 7:38:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 6:36:33 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 8/10/2011 6:24:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Christopher Hitchens answer to a similar question:

Theist: Do you believe that that God if he's provided everything for you, has rights on your life?

Hitchens: No, why should he? What gives him this right.

Theist: Because he owns you, he's created everything for you, he's kept you alive.

Hitchens: Well I don't want to be owned and I don't recognized anyone's right to own me. I wrote my book exactly to teach people to emancipate themselves from the man-made slavery of religion, and you're giving me the perfect example. I don't acknowledge anyone's ownership of myself.

Theist: I know you don't acknowledge it, but what if he is God?

Hitchens: And suppose that I grant your premise about him having made me and even treated me well, that still doesn't give anyone ownership rights.

Theist: Ok, so even though he keeps you alive, he causes you to breathe, he provides you food and everything that is good [Hitchens: so you say] he doesn't have any rights to tell you what to do.

Hitchens: Does that mean that the people who are sick and poor and hungry are excused of this obligation of thanking someone brokenly for owning them?

Theist: Alright, So here's question number three of our little game show "What If?" with our special guest Christopher Hitchens, the author of "God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons EVERYTHING" which is I hope a hyperbole. But even so...

Hitchens: No it isn't, no it isn't. Not if it postulates that I'm someone who is owned by someone else.

Theist: Alright. What if there's a judgement day sir, just what if, how do you think you'd do on that day, sir?

Hitchens: Well I'd ask "by what right?" The most ancient question is still "quo moranto," by what right. This right can't just be assumed.

Theist: Sir, is it possible that the reason you rage so much against God is because you just want to live your own autonomous way living anyway that you want to, any lifestyle that you prefer without being accountable to your creator?

Hitchens: I think that's highly probable, yes.

I'm going by what Hitchens said first:

Given that Hitchens world view is true (strong atheism) then what meaning does the word 'should' have? No God, no should, right? Yes, ok, human authority exists, but so, what man says in ethical terms isn't final or particularly objectively accurate. The word 'should' makes no sense in an atheistic world view!

Nowhere in there does Hitchens say that there is a should. In fact, he only uses the word when he's questioning why there would be a should.

More so, after read the conversation, it is Hitchens pride that feeds his beliefs, not his beliefs that feed his pride.

How did you come to that conclusion? It does appear that Hitchens is prideful but what makes you think that's what fuels his beliefs?

That goes for all of you that object against such a God as Jesus Christ.

Lolwut?

And another thing, Hitchen would simply melt when faced God due to His a fraction of his glory.

Lolwut?
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
GodSands
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8/10/2011 8:00:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 7:38:37 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
At 8/10/2011 6:36:33 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 8/10/2011 6:24:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Christopher Hitchens answer to a similar question:

Theist: Do you believe that that God if he's provided everything for you, has rights on your life?

Hitchens: No, why should he? What gives him this right.

Theist: Because he owns you, he's created everything for you, he's kept you alive.

Hitchens: Well I don't want to be owned and I don't recognized anyone's right to own me. I wrote my book exactly to teach people to emancipate themselves from the man-made slavery of religion, and you're giving me the perfect example. I don't acknowledge anyone's ownership of myself.

Theist: I know you don't acknowledge it, but what if he is God?

Hitchens: And suppose that I grant your premise about him having made me and even treated me well, that still doesn't give anyone ownership rights.

Theist: Ok, so even though he keeps you alive, he causes you to breathe, he provides you food and everything that is good [Hitchens: so you say] he doesn't have any rights to tell you what to do.

Hitchens: Does that mean that the people who are sick and poor and hungry are excused of this obligation of thanking someone brokenly for owning them?

Theist: Alright, So here's question number three of our little game show "What If?" with our special guest Christopher Hitchens, the author of "God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons EVERYTHING" which is I hope a hyperbole. But even so...

Hitchens: No it isn't, no it isn't. Not if it postulates that I'm someone who is owned by someone else.

Theist: Alright. What if there's a judgement day sir, just what if, how do you think you'd do on that day, sir?

Hitchens: Well I'd ask "by what right?" The most ancient question is still "quo moranto," by what right. This right can't just be assumed.

Theist: Sir, is it possible that the reason you rage so much against God is because you just want to live your own autonomous way living anyway that you want to, any lifestyle that you prefer without being accountable to your creator?

Hitchens: I think that's highly probable, yes.

I'm going by what Hitchens said first:

Given that Hitchens world view is true (strong atheism) then what meaning does the word 'should' have? No God, no should, right? Yes, ok, human authority exists, but so, what man says in ethical terms isn't final or particularly objectively accurate. The word 'should' makes no sense in an atheistic world view!

Nowhere in there does Hitchens say that there is a should. In fact, he only uses the word when he's questioning why there would be a should.

More so, after read the conversation, it is Hitchens pride that feeds his beliefs, not his beliefs that feed his pride.

How did you come to that conclusion? It does appear that Hitchens is prideful but what makes you think that's what fuels his beliefs?

That goes for all of you that object against such a God as Jesus Christ.

Lolwut?

And another thing, Hitchen would simply melt when faced God due to His a fraction of his glory.

Lolwut?

And another thing, Hitchen would simply melt when faced God due to a fraction of his glory.

The glory of God is so great that if one stands before Him, they would die not because of heat or any other physical cause but due to His glory alone.

Hitchens, yes said that why should he obey God, but what I am saying is in his world view, why does the word 'should' have any coherence? Which it does. If Hitchens wouldn't obey God even if He believed He exists, why obey any law of authority? Yes he may be arrested by the police, but if God exists, the Christian God, Hitchens will go to hell and suffer for an eternity.