Total Posts:26|Showing Posts:1-26
Jump to topic:

Gratitude to the Atheist

innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 3:20:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am actually quite grateful to the atheist who forced, and continues to force me to question my faith, and with the help of the atheist and certain Jesuits, i have been able to refine my faith so that it's more real in its application to my life. I am grateful to the atheist who made me look at dogma and its reason for existing, and i am grateful to the Jesuit who told me that 'God didn't want me to leave my brain outside when i entered a church'.

The pain that i felt in the 16 years of being an agnostic was ultimately good for me, and although it wasn't a path i would opt for given the choice, it allowed me to grow my faith in a direction i never could have imagined. There is great purpose to the atheist in the pain that he creates when an immature faith, one that is based on a Santa Claus view of God, is brought out of the shallow water of egocentrism and anthropomorphising of God.

I am grateful for the atheist who forces my church to look at itself and forces refinements and maturity in its relationship with God; despite the incredible pain that it creates within the individual who follows this church, and follows the leaders of this church or any church.

I am grateful for the pain that the atheists have inflicted on those of faith, because sometimes the only way we grow is through pain, and sometimes the more severe the pain the more profound the growth. Not everyone gets this, because we are trapped in our own world of wants and needs and are unable to understand beyond our pain and our concerns, so that we can't see anything outside of our tiny little lives.

I do wish that it were more reciprocal for the atheist, but sometimes that's the way gifts are.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Great post.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 3:20:17 AM, innomen wrote:
I am actually quite grateful to the atheist who forced, and continues to force me to question my faith, and with the help of the atheist and certain Jesuits, i have been able to refine my faith so that it's more real in its application to my life. I am grateful to the atheist who made me look at dogma and its reason for existing, and i am grateful to the Jesuit who told me that 'God didn't want me to leave my brain outside when i entered a church'.

The pain that i felt in the 16 years of being an agnostic was ultimately good for me, and although it wasn't a path i would opt for given the choice, it allowed me to grow my faith in a direction i never could have imagined. There is great purpose to the atheist in the pain that he creates when an immature faith, one that is based on a Santa Claus view of God, is brought out of the shallow water of egocentrism and anthropomorphising of God.

I am grateful for the atheist who forces my church to look at itself and forces refinements and maturity in its relationship with God; despite the incredible pain that it creates within the individual who follows this church, and follows the leaders of this church or any church.

I am grateful for the pain that the atheists have inflicted on those of faith, because sometimes the only way we grow is through pain, and sometimes the more severe the pain the more profound the growth. Not everyone gets this, because we are trapped in our own world of wants and needs and are unable to understand beyond our pain and our concerns, so that we can't see anything outside of our tiny little lives.

I do wish that it were more reciprocal for the atheist, but sometimes that's the way gifts are.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
The Cross.. the Cross.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 6:05:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


Then maybe you should GTFO.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 9:39:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 3:20:17 AM, innomen wrote:
I am actually quite grateful to the atheist who forced, and continues to force me to question my faith, and with the help of the atheist and certain Jesuits, i have been able to refine my faith so that it's more real in its application to my life. I am grateful to the atheist who made me look at dogma and its reason for existing, and i am grateful to the Jesuit who told me that 'God didn't want me to leave my brain outside when i entered a church'.

The pain that i felt in the 16 years of being an agnostic was ultimately good for me, and although it wasn't a path i would opt for given the choice, it allowed me to grow my faith in a direction i never could have imagined. There is great purpose to the atheist in the pain that he creates when an immature faith, one that is based on a Santa Claus view of God, is brought out of the shallow water of egocentrism and anthropomorphising of God.

I am grateful for the atheist who forces my church to look at itself and forces refinements and maturity in its relationship with God; despite the incredible pain that it creates within the individual who follows this church, and follows the leaders of this church or any church.

I am grateful for the pain that the atheists have inflicted on those of faith, because sometimes the only way we grow is through pain, and sometimes the more severe the pain the more profound the growth. Not everyone gets this, because we are trapped in our own world of wants and needs and are unable to understand beyond our pain and our concerns, so that we can't see anything outside of our tiny little lives.

I do wish that it were more reciprocal for the atheist, but sometimes that's the way gifts are.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


I would never go head to head with you on the bible, i wouldn't dare try, you are among Christians by far a better Christian than i could ever be. However, it did indeed take atheism to force me to separate the wheat from the chaff in my faith, to remove the man made illusions that permeate my religion, so that i can see more clearly what i hold to be true.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 10:50:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Ah...the sweet smell of the enforced ignorance and anti-critical thinking skills that lead to the kind of absolutism that results in senseless slaughters and fights.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 10:53:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


If you shine the light in darkness, guess what happens? .....it lights up.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 12:52:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 3:20:17 AM, innomen wrote:
I am actually quite grateful to the atheist who forced, and continues to force me to question my faith, and with the help of the atheist and certain Jesuits, i have been able to refine my faith so that it's more real in its application to my life. I am grateful to the atheist who made me look at dogma and its reason for existing, and i am grateful to the Jesuit who told me that 'God didn't want me to leave my brain outside when i entered a church'.

The pain that i felt in the 16 years of being an agnostic was ultimately good for me, and although it wasn't a path i would opt for given the choice, it allowed me to grow my faith in a direction i never could have imagined. There is great purpose to the atheist in the pain that he creates when an immature faith, one that is based on a Santa Claus view of God, is brought out of the shallow water of egocentrism and anthropomorphising of God.

I am grateful for the atheist who forces my church to look at itself and forces refinements and maturity in its relationship with God; despite the incredible pain that it creates within the individual who follows this church, and follows the leaders of this church or any church.

I am grateful for the pain that the atheists have inflicted on those of faith, because sometimes the only way we grow is through pain, and sometimes the more severe the pain the more profound the growth. Not everyone gets this, because we are trapped in our own world of wants and needs and are unable to understand beyond our pain and our concerns, so that we can't see anything outside of our tiny little lives.

I do wish that it were more reciprocal for the atheist, but sometimes that's the way gifts are.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


Are we the light or the dark? This is exactly the type of closed minded bullcrap that forced me out of my belief in God and makes me fight religion so whole-heartedly.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 1:33:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

When you are older and more secure in your opinions you will understand.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 1:48:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

Geo, you are only taking this stance because my end result isn't as you would have it (which i never really understood about some atheists). Had my ending have been that i am now an atheist and see the world as atheists see it, and am grateful to them blah blah, you would be fine and happy with that because your position would be further validated and affirmed. There was nothing disingenuous in what i said, except i was making a very faint, and obviously totally missed inference to the experience of pain and learning.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 1:58:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 1:33:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

When you are older and more secure in your opinions you will understand.

Red herring
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 2:13:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 1:58:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:33:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

When you are older and more secure in your opinions you will understand.

Red herring

http://en.wikipedia.org...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 2:25:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 2:13:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:58:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:33:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

When you are older and more secure in your opinions you will understand.

Red herring

http://en.wikipedia.org...

I was refering to the fallacy, ignoratio elenchi, the irrelevant thesis.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 2:30:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

I'll take that any day over "Instead of giving my worldview any form of introspection of critical thinking, I'll just say my worldview is correct and cannot be strengthened or weakened (for how can one strengthen what is true by default)?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 2:31:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 2:25:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 2:13:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:58:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:33:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

When you are older and more secure in your opinions you will understand.

Red herring

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Ooops! I have been misuing that term for years... thanks C_N, sorry I am such a
wanker.

That's cool man.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 2:40:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 2:31:31 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 2:25:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 2:13:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:58:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:33:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 1:07:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:54:10 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2011 12:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2011 4:51:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Great post.

Wow, you seriously think so?

All he's saying is "Thanks to Atheists and their false world view, my correct world view has strengthened."

Can you not respect contrary views however interesting and thoughtful they may be?

Indeed I can and I do. I definitely cherish conflicting view points and variant and differing world views, but the tone of this post was in an otherwise vain.

I will simply say I respect differing world views and leave it at that. However, this post is saying exactly how I characterized it and came off a bit condescending. Not that I'm exactly polite myself, but I don't pretend to be. This post appears humble but it's not.

When you are older and more secure in your opinions you will understand.

Red herring

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Ooops! I have been misuing that term for years... thanks C_N, sorry I am such a
wanker.

That's cool man.

I didn't misuse the term red herring. That is exactly what I meant. I was clarifying the use to you because you posted an article on the wrong red herring. I was clarifying my use of red herring and told you I was referring to red herring as in ignoratio elenche. Red herring is a form of that and is used in the context of an argument. No confusion on my behalf. Sorry.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 4:00:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Interesting post innomen, if a little condescending. What did you stop believing as a result of being exposed to atheism? In what ways have your religious beliefs been refined (other than by being reduced)?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2011 5:09:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 4:00:59 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Interesting post innomen, if a little condescending. What did you stop believing as a result of being exposed to atheism? In what ways have your religious beliefs been refined (other than by being reduced)?

Dogma, and the man made element inherent to religion is what i began pulling out of the whole thing. Once you start seeing how anthropomorphizing religion is, how much of biblical teachings is more about societal control, and very little to do with actual faith, things change. Completely understanding the role of religion, and the religious and what it's purpose is. Atheism forced me to look at my purpose in living and the purpose of existence, and it forced me to be honest in all things, to the best of my ability, including, and especially the amount of BS i put into my own self identity. I am grateful for the honesty that it imposes on my faith, and how i see myself in relationship to a God of my understanding. The clarity of Christ's message is only deepened by the honesty that atheism imposes.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2011 10:32:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Excellent post, Innomen. It was honest and thoughtful. You professed your faith while not trying to sell me on anything, and all I can do is have nothing but respect for that.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2011 10:32:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/15/2011 6:05:59 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/15/2011 5:45:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


Then maybe you should GTFO.:

LMFAO!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2011 11:26:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it's interesting that innomen says DATCMOTO is "a better Christian than he could ever be" because DATCMOTO copied and pasted a Bible quote. I think Jesus would say it takes more than preaching and judging to be a good Christian, but what do I know.

I also think it's interesting that innomen talks about the great pain he experienced during the 16 years of being an agnostic, as obviously correlation does not imply causation. It's extremely common for people to use God as a crutch in tough situations; it's a helpful coping mechanism but doesn't justify belief.

To me, faith without dogma does not a Christian make. One could experience the seemingly spiritual wonder of the universe without ascribing to a particular religion. Inno has said to me, "To me they [dogma] are silly little details, and if i get caught up on that stuff i miss the whole point." I'm almost positive that whatever the point is that he's referring to, one could reach the same or similarly useful conclusions without saying they are a Christian. The details are in fact important, because they are what distinguishes one religion and belief system from another.

Inno has also said to me, "I also don't have any need to define God so tightly." Well it IS important to define God definitively, because otherwise how do you know what you are agreeing to believing in? It seems silly. The fact that people cherry pick various beliefs from a particular source, but claim to adhere to a particular religion irks me to no end. You might as well call yourself a Unitarian Universalist if your philosophy is to utilize useful insight and your own interpretation of that as an applicable "faith" to your life.

I think that people are condescending in talking to atheists about faith, implying that they are not mature enough to understand it. Faith is simply trust in the unknown. One big problem I have with theism is that faith is praised as such a virtue, which in turn encourages people to hold on to unwarranted beliefs on the presumption that they are strong and righteous people for doing so. A lot of faith is based on fear.

I was actually watching a few minutes of The 700 Club the other night, and the host was saying it's good to have your faith challenged because then you can become an apologetic and learn how to intellectually defend Christ. In other words, they don't encourage an intellectual pursuit for truth, but the pursuit of being able to effectively debate a particular side. Well there are some incredibly articulate and clever communists, but that doesn't mean that what they endorse is right.

Anyway, this is just another concerned post from a friendly atheist :) It's nothing personal at all against innomen whatsoever; I just happen to be responding to his remarks from the OP. I doubt he will be offended, and in the worst case scenario I am just challenging his faith and thus will likely be grateful :P Also, I think I've asked this before, but out of curiosity (to inno in particular, but anyone could answer) -- what conditions would have to apply in order for you to consider yourself an atheist? Just wondering.
President of DDO
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2011 3:06:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/16/2011 11:26:56 AM, Danielle wrote:
I think it's interesting that innomen says DATCMOTO is "a better Christian than he could ever be" because DATCMOTO copied and pasted a Bible quote. I think Jesus would say it takes more than preaching and judging to be a good Christian, but what do I know.

I also think it's interesting that innomen talks about the great pain he experienced during the 16 years of being an agnostic, as obviously correlation does not imply causation. It's extremely common for people to use God as a crutch in tough situations; it's a helpful coping mechanism but doesn't justify belief.

The pain that I felt may be difficult to explain in that they were somewhat personal in nature. It's sort of difficult to explain in that there was a hole inside me, a deep dark hole that needed to be filled. I tried many things with drinking, sex, philosophy, work, more drinking, and more sex, but there was only a continual erosion of everything. I cannot really explain the details, because they are very personal, but they are important. For a person missing a leg a crutch is important.

To me, faith without dogma does not a Christian make. One could experience the seemingly spiritual wonder of the universe without ascribing to a particular religion. Inno has said to me, "To me they [dogma] are silly little details, and if I get caught up on that stuff I miss the whole point." I'm almost positive that whatever the point is that he's referring to, one could reach the same or similarly useful conclusions without saying they are a Christian. The details are in fact important, because they are what distinguishes one religion and belief system from another.

That is very true, in that you could easily accomplish spiritual fulfillment without being a Christian, but it was a good fit for me. The dogma is still silly in my mind, but I do enjoy Christmas.

Inno has also said to me, "I also don't have any need to define God so tightly." Well it IS important to define God definitively, because otherwise how do you know what you are agreeing to believing in? It seems silly. The fact that people cherry pick various beliefs from a particular source, but claim to adhere to a particular religion irks me to no end. You might as well call yourself a Unitarian Universalist if your philosophy is to utilize useful insight and your own interpretation of that as an applicable "faith" to your life.

But it's not important to me, and seems like a ridiculous endeavor. What's this agreement that I'm signing onto? I accept Christ as my savior, and that makes me a Christian, again, I'm not a good one in that I reject most of the things that Paul has done to the faith, and ignore principles of the religion that seem to not be within spiritual values. I make no real attempt at believing specifically what happens after I die, and care more about my heaven and hell that I can create while living.

I think that people are condescending in talking to atheists about faith, implying that they are not mature enough to understand it. Faith is simply trust in the unknown. One big problem I have with theism is that faith is praised as such a virtue, which in turn encourages people to hold on to unwarranted beliefs on the presumption that they are strong and righteous people for doing so. A lot of faith is based on fear.

Well, I can be equally condescending to people of faith, but it isn't intentional, but yeah, you cannot know what I know because you haven't lived my life, just as I cannot know yours without living your life. If someone just got back from Afghanistan would you say you know exactly what they feel and what they went through? Can you equate your experience to theirs? Now of course that's a dramatic example, but it's the same.

I was actually watching a few minutes of The 700 Club the other night, and the host was saying it's good to have your faith challenged because then you can become an apologetic and learn how to intellectually defend Christ. In other words, they don't encourage an intellectual pursuit for truth, but the pursuit of being able to effectively debate a particular side. Well there are some incredibly articulate and clever communists, but that doesn't mean that what they endorse is right.

In the time I've been here how much of it do you see me defending Christianity? The OP was based on me and my journey, and the internal critique I continually make. Most of it is deeply personal and the rigors that the atheist put me through isn't for me to create defenses and justifications, not at all, but for me to help me see the truth better about what I believe. My faith isn't perfect, not by a long shot, but it has provided me with quantifiable happiness in my life, and I have come to find that being happy is pretty important.

Anyway, this is just another concerned post from a friendly atheist :) It's nothing personal at all against innomen whatsoever; I just happen to be responding to his remarks from the OP. I doubt he will be offended, and in the worst case scenario I am just challenging his faith and thus will likely be grateful :P Also, I think I've asked this before, but out of curiosity (to inno in particular, but anyone could answer) -- what conditions would have to apply in order for you to consider yourself an atheist? Just wondering.
Aww Danielle, you know that there is nothing you could ever say to impede my affections toward you. I respect you, and I treasure my friendship with you, so don't worry a bit about it.