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Blasphemy ... Help Christians!

Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/20/2011 9:56:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm bringing this up because I'm not a 100% sure and now I'm confused.

Blasphemy is defined as: Blasphemy is irreverence[1] toward holy personages, religious artifacts, customs, and beliefs. The Abrahamic religions condemn blasphemy vehemently. Some countries have laws to punish blasphemy,[2] while others have laws to give recourse to those who are offended by blasphemy. Those laws may discourage blasphemy as a matter of blasphemous libel,[3] vilification of religion,[4][5] religious insult,[6] or hate speech.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Irreverence is defined as:
1. Lack of reverence or due respect.
2. A disrespectful act or remark.

Now, I've done a bit of research (Because i don't fully understand the Trinity) and apparently it is generally accepted that a believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy against the holy spirit. But, i have to disagree and i would like all of your input.

Generally blasphemy is thought to mean stating God is actually Satan, or something along those lines however, as you can see from the definition a lot of things are considered blasphemous. So...

1 Corinthians 2:9-13: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (KJV)

In the above verse it is saying that the holy spirit inspired the bible.

Now, is embellishing on the bible (Making things up that are not in it), first of all morally wrong (lying), second of all blasphemy against the holy spirit?

I'm sure some of you get why i made this topic, but for those who don't. One of our fellow debaters Godsands, constantly embellishes on the bible and even claims Zeus and other Greek Gods to be fallen angels... Is he going to hell for blasphemy? Has he committed the unforgivable sin?

Thoughts and answers would be greatly appreciated.

Can we leave out the anti-theist bull on this topic please. This topic is assuming God is real, if you are going to try and refute God/religion/the bible please stay out. i want answers and thoughts not an argument or hate.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2011 10:23:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 9:56:20 AM, Steve0Yea wrote:
Irreverence is defined as:
1. Lack of reverence or due respect.
2. A disrespectful act or remark.

1 Corinthians 2:9-13: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (KJV)

In the above verse it is saying that the holy spirit inspired the bible.

Now, is embellishing on the bible (Making things up that are not in it), first of all morally wrong (lying), second of all blasphemy against the holy spirit?

Perhaps if it were suggested that it Says things that it does not.. or if one were to say it Doesn't say things that it does...

But I doubt godsands does that. I would think he doesn't Say the Bible Directly supports any beliefs he has which he doesn't think the Bible Explicitly supports, or which have no direct support within the bible..

I would imagine he wouldn't claim that the bible Does say that Zeus is a fallen angel...

he just has beliefs which draw sources outside the scope of the bible (probably experience and reasoning). This doesn't mean that they contradict or Run against what Is said in the bible... in fact Given the whole Framework laid out in the bible his thinking that Other gods are Devil's pretending at deity fits in Rather well with Everything the bible suggests (though it may not be directly supported, it meshes well with the story which is told) and explains the phenomena of False Religions and false gods.

His Big understanding is given through the bible.. He sees things (like False religions/gods) and tries to find the most reasonable explanation for those things Within the larger biblical Framework/Understanding.

I'm sure some of you get why i made this topic, but for those who don't. One of our fellow debaters Godsands, constantly embellishes on the bible and even claims Zeus and other Greek Gods to be fallen angels... Is he going to hell for blasphemy? Has he committed the unforgivable sin?

Thoughts and answers would be greatly appreciated.

Can we leave out the anti-theist bull on this topic please. This topic is assuming God is real, if you are going to try and refute God/religion/the bible please stay out. i want answers and thoughts not an argument or hate.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/20/2011 11:54:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 10:23:43 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/20/2011 9:56:20 AM, Steve0Yea wrote:
Irreverence is defined as:
1. Lack of reverence or due respect.
2. A disrespectful act or remark.

1 Corinthians 2:9-13: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (KJV)

In the above verse it is saying that the holy spirit inspired the bible.

Now, is embellishing on the bible (Making things up that are not in it), first of all morally wrong (lying), second of all blasphemy against the holy spirit?

Perhaps if it were suggested that it Says things that it does not.. or if one were to say it Doesn't say things that it does...

But I doubt godsands does that. I would think he doesn't Say the Bible Directly supports any beliefs he has which he doesn't think the Bible Explicitly supports, or which have no direct support within the bible..

I would imagine he wouldn't claim that the bible Does say that Zeus is a fallen angel...

he just has beliefs which draw sources outside the scope of the bible (probably experience and reasoning). This doesn't mean that they contradict or Run against what Is said in the bible... in fact Given the whole Framework laid out in the bible his thinking that Other gods are Devil's pretending at deity fits in Rather well with Everything the bible suggests (though it may not be directly supported, it meshes well with the story which is told) and explains the phenomena of False Religions and false gods.

His Big understanding is given through the bible.. He sees things (like False religions/gods) and tries to find the most reasonable explanation for those things Within the larger biblical Framework/Understanding.

I'm sure some of you get why i made this topic, but for those who don't. One of our fellow debaters Godsands, constantly embellishes on the bible and even claims Zeus and other Greek Gods to be fallen angels... Is he going to hell for blasphemy? Has he committed the unforgivable sin?

Thoughts and answers would be greatly appreciated.

Can we leave out the anti-theist bull on this topic please. This topic is assuming God is real, if you are going to try and refute God/religion/the bible please stay out. i want answers and thoughts not an argument or hate.

So yes, he is making sh*t up... which is deceitful (if hes wrong). He states these things as if they were true.

"Zeus was a fallen angel btw, just for your information."
He stated that as FACT! Not as, "oh well Zeus may be a fallen angel, that would explain people speaking with him and/or believing in him."

Or

"While your standing at St. Peters Gate after you have tried to talk Jesus into letting you into heaven and FAIL an angel twice your size and twice as strong will come and pick you up into a portal into another dimension that will never open back up again where you will burn eternally for your sins."

Really, he is giving a very clear and direct definition of the angels size and strength that will cast me into hell. Which he also claimed to be another dimension and accessed through a portal that will never open back up.

Also, that brings up a question. Doesn't hell open back up during Armageddon? And why would the portal never open back up after I'm thrown into it? Isn't there more sinners to go to hell? We all have separate portals? Everyone has their own personal hell?

Personally i find this insulting to the Christian religion (which is a form of blasphemy if I'm not mistaken), for him to claim to know such things. He cannot nor will anyone ever know these things. And if he is using reason then why does the angel only have double my strength? Wouldn't you think angels are MUCH more powerful than humans? And why does the portal never open back up again? Its pretty clear he is not using reason in these claims because of the discrepancy's...

Also, that statement DOES imply that it is from the bible because he was stating what will happen after we die from a Christian point of view and he gave great detail... There is no way you could know that unless you have: A) Stood at St. Peters Gate B) Made it up C) Its in the bible. Only two of those are logical at all.

And if any of that is in the bible i would LOVE to know the passage because I've been looking for a while now and cant find it... that would be a great read particularly the part where the bible describes another "dimension"
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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8/20/2011 12:23:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here is some information on the "Unpardonable sin"

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://lds.org...

In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must first have had God reveal the truth to you, so you KNOW it with certainty....then deny the truth or rebel against it. Very few people know enough to even have the possibility of committing that sin.
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/20/2011 12:32:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 12:23:54 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Here is some information on the "Unpardonable sin"

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://lds.org...

In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must first have had God reveal the truth to you, so you KNOW it with certainty....then deny the truth or rebel against it. Very few people know enough to even have the possibility of committing that sin.

Ok, thats kinda what i was looking for. Also curious to know if making things up about heaven (see the examples above) is blasphemy still. It may not be the unpardonable sin (which is still slightly debatable) but is it still a sin?
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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8/20/2011 12:44:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 12:32:37 PM, Steve0Yea wrote:
In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must first have had God reveal the truth to you, so you KNOW it with certainty....then deny the truth or rebel against it. Very few people know enough to even have the possibility of committing that sin.

Ok, thats kinda what i was looking for. Also curious to know if making things up about heaven (see the examples above) is blasphemy still. It may not be the unpardonable sin (which is still slightly debatable) but is it still a sin?

Yes that is still a sin, but it can be repented of and be forgiven.
In the 10 Commandments #3 is to not take the name of God in vain (=blasphemy) and #9 is to not lie

So it would fall into one of those categories of sin...I believe #9 fits.
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/20/2011 12:58:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 12:44:42 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 8/20/2011 12:32:37 PM, Steve0Yea wrote:
In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must first have had God reveal the truth to you, so you KNOW it with certainty....then deny the truth or rebel against it. Very few people know enough to even have the possibility of committing that sin.

Ok, thats kinda what i was looking for. Also curious to know if making things up about heaven (see the examples above) is blasphemy still. It may not be the unpardonable sin (which is still slightly debatable) but is it still a sin?

Yes that is still a sin, but it can be repented of and be forgiven.
In the 10 Commandments #3 is to not take the name of God in vain (=blasphemy) and #9 is to not lie

So it would fall into one of those categories of sin...I believe #9 fits.

Way of topic here but that brought up another question...
Ok, now what if he doesn't repent for these sins? Will he go to hell even if he doesn't know hes committing them?

Example:
Everyone breaks the ten commandments DAILY, one of them is to not have graven images (Pictures, statues, whatever). What is the most famous thing you think of when you think of Christianity... the little statue on every Christians wall of Jesus on the cross... what do we ALL have in our house... pictures... hell even on our phones.

So do all the people whom do not repent for breaking this commandment go to hell? Because that commandment was changed later on (Under whos authority i don't know) no one really remembers it and no one repents for it do they? So how many people are in hell for owning pictures?
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/20/2011 1:23:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Now, is embellishing on the bible (Making things up that are not in it), first of all morally wrong (lying), second of all blasphemy against the holy spirit?

I'm sure some of you get why i made this topic, but for those who don't. One of our fellow debaters Godsands, constantly embellishes on the bible and even claims Zeus and other Greek Gods to be fallen angels... Is he going to hell for blasphemy? Has he committed the unforgivable sin?:

The thing is that he's not aware that he's embellishing, he's just literally that ignorant. If anything he's been duped by other liars and/or embellishers who propagate nonsense about other gods of the pantheon actually being demons.

He does diminish the power of his own god though, and inadvertantly makes his adversary (Satan) so much more powerful. Even still, I don't think qualifies as him denying the Holy Spirit.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/20/2011 1:55:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 1:23:20 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Now, is embellishing on the bible (Making things up that are not in it), first of all morally wrong (lying), second of all blasphemy against the holy spirit?

I'm sure some of you get why i made this topic, but for those who don't. One of our fellow debaters Godsands, constantly embellishes on the bible and even claims Zeus and other Greek Gods to be fallen angels... Is he going to hell for blasphemy? Has he committed the unforgivable sin?:

The thing is that he's not aware that he's embellishing, he's just literally that ignorant. If anything he's been duped by other liars and/or embellishers who propagate nonsense about other gods of the pantheon actually being demons.

He does diminish the power of his own god though, and inadvertantly makes his adversary (Satan) so much more powerful. Even still, I don't think qualifies as him denying the Holy Spirit.

Ok, so that being said (if he was duped by other embellishes, which i don't think he was...) does that make them guilty of not necessarily denying the holy spirit, but lying about it and therefor sinning/committing blasphemy against it. Did they commit the unforgivable sin? Basically does the original person who embellished qualify for the unforgivable sin? (And I'm not trying to take this back to the writers of the bible i am honestly just curious, although that could be said now that i think about it...)
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/20/2011 4:36:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 12:32:37 PM, Steve0Yea wrote:
At 8/20/2011 12:23:54 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Here is some information on the "Unpardonable sin"

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://lds.org...

In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must first have had God reveal the truth to you, so you KNOW it with certainty....then deny the truth or rebel against it. Very few people know enough to even have the possibility of committing that sin.

Ok, thats kinda what i was looking for. Also curious to know if making things up about heaven (see the examples above) is blasphemy still. It may not be the unpardonable sin (which is still slightly debatable) but is it still a sin?

He is refering to me, I believes I am making things up about heaven. I said that, those who are not Christians will be taken away by an angel to await hell. The angel being far larger and stronger in stature. I have heard that these angels of heaven are known to be 25ft tall, if taller, some of the Nephilim were 36ft tall.
GodSands
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8/20/2011 4:37:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 4:36:38 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 8/20/2011 12:32:37 PM, Steve0Yea wrote:
At 8/20/2011 12:23:54 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Here is some information on the "Unpardonable sin"

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://lds.org...

In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must first have had God reveal the truth to you, so you KNOW it with certainty....then deny the truth or rebel against it. Very few people know enough to even have the possibility of committing that sin.

Ok, thats kinda what i was looking for. Also curious to know if making things up about heaven (see the examples above) is blasphemy still. It may not be the unpardonable sin (which is still slightly debatable) but is it still a sin?

He is refering to me, I believes I am making things up about heaven. I said that, those who are not Christians will be taken away by an angel to await hell. The angel being far larger and stronger in stature. I have heard that these angels of heaven are known to be 25ft tall, if taller, some of the Nephilim were 36ft tall.

"he believes I am making..."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/20/2011 4:52:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok, so that being said (if he was duped by other embellishes, which i don't think he was...) does that make them guilty of not necessarily denying the holy spirit, but lying about it and therefor sinning/committing blasphemy against it. Did they commit the unforgivable sin?:

No, because you can deny the Father and the Son, but you can't deny the Holy Spirit.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/20/2011 7:09:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 4:52:49 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Ok, so that being said (if he was duped by other embellishes, which i don't think he was...) does that make them guilty of not necessarily denying the holy spirit, but lying about it and therefore sinning/committing blasphemy against it. Did they commit the unforgivable sin?:

No, because you can deny the Father and the Son, but you can't deny the Holy Spirit.

I would agree here, in that when the Holy Spirit comes to live in a person (they become a Christian) they cannot deny it, but it is saying if they could, it would be unforgivable.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/20/2011 7:58:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would agree here, in that when the Holy Spirit comes to live in a person (they become a Christian) they cannot deny it, but it is saying if they could, it would be unforgivable.:

So essentially you're saying that it's impossible to deny the Holy Spirit once you have it? That's not biblical, in fact the bible says the opposite is true.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." -- Hebrews 6:4-6

Well, looks like I'm screwed.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
GodSands
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8/20/2011 9:02:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 7:58:11 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I would agree here, in that when the Holy Spirit comes to live in a person (they become a Christian) they cannot deny it, but it is saying if they could, it would be unforgivable.:

So essentially you're saying that it's impossible to deny the Holy Spirit once you have it? That's not biblical, in fact the bible says the opposite is true.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." -- Hebrews 6:4-6

Well, looks like I'm screwed.

You know what, this is a very difficult verse, and it is in need of some study. I don't believe that a Christian can lose his or her salvation for God has promised those who have repented and believed in Christ that nothing or no one can snatch those who are believers out of His hands. And I don't believe one can jump out of God's hands either. But Hebrews 6:4-6 needs to be studied if it is to be understood. It also needs a context, for it is very specific in it's language.

I've fallen away many times, Paul calls it as being 'ship wreaked' where one loses their passion for God and begin to not care too much about sin, that they conform to sin. However, as they are a new creature, they cannot stay and live having a 'likibility' to sin for that long, God will bring them back and renew their minds on Holy things. I've been there myself. And at the moment, I'm not very passionate for God, I am drained and dull in heart. Just as Christ struggled to carry His cross to where He will be crucified, Christians also struggle to carry their cross. Christians do sin, but in a different light for those who aren't saved. An unsaved person will gorge in sin, because they know no better, whereas a Christian will still sin, but they will get flashes of reality thrown at them, where their conscious will relate to their situation. And being that Christians are still human, they while they are doing sinful activities, they wouldn't like to be reminded of God, not that they are denying God, but that they are enjoying themselves. But when they think or be reminded of Jesus Christ and what He has done, their conscious fires up, and usually they tend to restrain the thought of Christ, guilty of it however.
Steve0Yea
Posts: 91
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8/21/2011 2:47:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 4:52:49 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Ok, so that being said (if he was duped by other embellishes, which i don't think he was...) does that make them guilty of not necessarily denying the holy spirit, but lying about it and therefor sinning/committing blasphemy against it. Did they commit the unforgivable sin?:

No, because you can deny the Father and the Son, but you can't deny the Holy Spirit.

Its not about "Denying" the holy spirit its about misinforming people about it. I could deny it quite easily in this post infact. But if the holy spirit influenced the writing of the bible and he is embellishing on the bible he is misrepresenting the holy spirit and therefor lying against it. That is a form of blasphemy is it not?

I feel like we went over this already... ive been drinking a bit tonight... im going to bed ill probably be better suited to handle this tomorrow.
innomen
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8/23/2011 3:08:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/20/2011 7:58:11 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I would agree here, in that when the Holy Spirit comes to live in a person (they become a Christian) they cannot deny it, but it is saying if they could, it would be unforgivable.:

So essentially you're saying that it's impossible to deny the Holy Spirit once you have it? That's not biblical, in fact the bible says the opposite is true.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." -- Hebrews 6:4-6

Well, looks like I'm screwed.

No worries, I'll put in a good word for you....oh yeah i forgot.