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Zen Buddhism

Lionheart
Posts: 520
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8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2011 5:27:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/22/2011 6:48:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.

OH YES IT DOES.. OH NO ITS NOT..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2011 6:51:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 6:48:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.

OH YES IT DOES.. OH NO ITS NOT..

A deaf person does not hear, but they do detect vibrations. What you regard as sound is vibration interpreted by your ears.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 10:13:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 6:51:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:48:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.

OH YES IT DOES.. OH NO ITS NOT..

A deaf person does not hear, but they do detect vibrations. What you regard as sound is vibration interpreted by your ears.

I call such things sound waves.. and Sound.. I don't care if anyone hears it.. and I don't care if you call it something else :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 10:14:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 10:13:30 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:51:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:48:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.

OH YES IT DOES.. OH NO ITS NOT..

A deaf person does not hear, but they do detect vibrations. What you regard as sound is vibration interpreted by your ears.

I call such things sound waves.. and Sound.. I don't care if anyone hears it.. and I don't care if you call it something else :P

all vibrating things make sound :P

I don't care!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 10:15:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 10:14:11 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't care!

ok.. maybe not stuff vibrating in no medium.. but that's it.. if there's a medium then there's sound :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2011 10:29:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
MUHAHAHA!!!

Ahem...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/22/2011 6:16:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hmmmm. Well, If a tree falls in the middle of the forest...

If you knew that a tree fell than you know the movement would have been interpretted as sound by your brain had you been close enough to it catch the vibrations with your energy.

The answer. It makes a sound, but not a sound. It's a saying to show that reality is relative.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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8/22/2011 7:42:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You know abut the tree, it makes a sound.
You don't know about the tree, it makes no sound.

Reality is both objective and relative.

Truth is in paradox.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2011 8:03:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

It is a pile of shite like everything else that you spout.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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8/22/2011 8:09:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

What about Shinto or Taoism? Are they 'profound philosophies'?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 8:21:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:09:43 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Taoism?

8)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 8:22:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

whatchout Geo!!.. I think you've got your panties in a bunch.

looks uncomfortable.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2011 8:23:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:09:43 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

What about Shinto or Taoism? Are they 'profound philosophies'?

Shinto, based on what I know about it, no.

Taoism is actually part of Zen Buddhism. They're not really separate. Zen is the combination of Buddhism and Taoism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2011 8:25:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:22:57 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

whatchout Geo!!.. I think you've got your panties in a bunch.

looks uncomfortable.

It doesn't bother me so much as I find it a shame.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 8:28:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:23:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:09:43 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

What about Shinto or Taoism? Are they 'profound philosophies'?

Shinto, based on what I know about it, no.

Taoism is actually part of Zen Buddhism. They're not really separate. Zen is the combination of Buddhism and Taoism.

zen seems more like Taoism than it does General buddhism..

it drops Buddha's unexplained implications about Compassion being some kind of Transcendent good.

seems to me it takes the daoistey type stuff out of buddhism, drops the extra bull.. and moves on.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 8:32:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:28:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:23:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:09:43 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:00:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This discussion about trees has NOTHING to do with Zen Buddhism.

Zen Buddhism is indeed one of the most profound philosophies and does not need to be made a mockery of by an irrelevant side discussion about trees falling in forests.

What about Shinto or Taoism? Are they 'profound philosophies'?

Shinto, based on what I know about it, no.

Taoism is actually part of Zen Buddhism. They're not really separate. Zen is the combination of Buddhism and Taoism.

zen seems more like Taoism than it does General buddhism..

it drops Buddha's unexplained implications about Compassion being some kind of Transcendent good.

seems to me it takes the daoistey type stuff out of buddhism, drops the extra bull.. and moves on.

Other than Buddha's kick for compassion Buddhism and Taoism are extremely similar it seems to me.. They have the same ideas but Buddhism just goes into a lot more detail describing particulars and has a lot of Names for identified things.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2011 8:55:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:28:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
zen seems more like Taoism than it does General buddhism..

Zen is part of the Buddhist tradition.

it drops Buddha's unexplained implications about Compassion being some kind of Transcendent good.

That's not a tenet of Buddha or Buddhism.

seems to me it takes the daoistey type stuff out of buddhism, drops the extra bull.. and moves on.

I suppose I can agree a bit with that.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/22/2011 9:12:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 8:55:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:28:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
it drops Buddha's unexplained implications about Compassion being some kind of Transcendent good.

That's not a tenet of Buddha or Buddhism.

well I wouldn't debate you that it was an Explicit "tenet" of buddhism...

but I Would debate you that Buddha implied that Compassion was some kind of transcendent good.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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8/22/2011 9:20:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 9:12:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/22/2011 8:55:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
but I Would debate you that Buddha implied that Compassion was some kind of transcendent good.

That would be an interesting debate. I look forward to it, if Geo accepts.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/23/2011 4:55:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 6:51:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:48:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.

OH YES IT DOES.. OH NO ITS NOT..

A deaf person does not hear, but they do detect vibrations. What you regard as sound is vibration interpreted by your ears.

My ears pick up something real and objective; SOUND! That 'interpretation' is still there when I am not.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2011 6:27:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:55:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:51:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:48:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:46:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2011 6:39:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/22/2011 5:23:06 AM, Lionheart wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on Zen Buddhism.

Positive, negative, and neutral pespectives about the religion are all welcome.

A tree DOES make a sound EVEN when no-one's there to hear it; it's called objective Truth or God.

No it doesn't. It merely vibrates the air. Sound is interpretation.

OH YES IT DOES.. OH NO ITS NOT..

A deaf person does not hear, but they do detect vibrations. What you regard as sound is vibration interpreted by your ears.

My ears pick up something real and objective; SOUND! That 'interpretation' is still there when I am not.

Are you really this stupid?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/23/2011 6:01:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Can you desire without suffering? Can you truly live without desire? If so, what would you have to live for if you never desired anything. What would be the point of existence. Even desiring satori is still desire.

To me, life is desire in it's purest form. The desire to exist.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/23/2011 7:05:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 6:01:12 PM, Tiel wrote:
To me, life is desire in it's purest form. The desire to exist.

but don't get caught up in it..

let desires come as they will.. and go as they will.

don't deny them, if they exist then accept them and, that means of course, act Given them...

However don't get so wrapped up in them, or in Particular ones that you Hold to them past their time, or Artificially Raise one up on a pedestal where it doesn't belong.. or any such things.

Walk Two paths... Understand that such things come and go... but Embrace them as they come, as they exist... just don't cling to them.

Accept yourself as you are, and all things as they are.. but don't Cling to particular notions of how things are Past their time.. You will change, as will your understanding of things and as will things themselves. Accept those changes as they come and you will be able to act in accordance with things always...

you'll be in accordance with Yourself and things broadly.. You will not struggle against yourself, and won't unnecessarily struggle against the nature of things.

Those who struggle with "sin" do not accept themselves.. and those who find the world Depressing or Meaningless do not accept the world. Accept yourself and Accept the world as they are and Act Given them.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/23/2011 7:17:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 7:05:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/23/2011 6:01:12 PM, Tiel wrote:
To me, life is desire in it's purest form. The desire to exist.

but don't get caught up in it..

let desires come as they will.. and go as they will.

don't deny them, if they exist then accept them and, that means of course, act Given them...

However don't get so wrapped up in them, or in Particular ones that you Hold to them past their time, or Artificially Raise one up on a pedestal where it doesn't belong.. or any such things.

Walk Two paths... Understand that such things come and go... but Embrace them as they come, as they exist... just don't cling to them.

Accept yourself as you are, and all things as they are.. but don't Cling to particular notions of how things are Past their time.. You will change, as will your understanding of things and as will things themselves. Accept those changes as they come and you will be able to act in accordance with things always...

you'll be in accordance with Yourself and things broadly.. You will not struggle against yourself, and won't unnecessarily struggle against the nature of things.

Those who struggle with "sin" do not accept themselves.. and those who find the world Depressing or Meaningless do not accept the world. Accept yourself and Accept the world as they are and Act Given them.

Agreed, but this doe not refute my point. Desire is the essence of life, the desire to exist. Many religions and philosophies say that desire is either evil or the cause of suffering, I say it is the opposite. Desire is good and the cause of happiness.

Everything that makes me happy in life, was a result of desire. Happiness itself seems to be desire satisfied and desire created. This is the cycle of happiness, yet it is said to be the cycle of suffering. I think it is a matter of negative or positive perception on what desire really is.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/23/2011 7:26:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 7:17:01 PM, Tiel wrote:
Everything that makes me happy in life, was a result of desire. Happiness itself seems to be desire satisfied and desire created. This is the cycle of happiness, yet it is said to be the cycle of suffering. I think it is a matter of negative or positive perception on what desire really is.

I think you can have your cake and eat it too ;)

When you Accept things as they are.. You can be calm enough to get through troubles without Struggling/Suffering... you do what you can to make things as you would have them, but accept how things are, and do not trouble yourself with getting upset about the nature of things.

Being able to Calmly/contentedly view things as they go on is kind of Euphoric of itself.. but then you can also still Get the extra bonus of being happy when things are Good :)

enjoying things when they are as you would have them.

just Accept those Enjoyable things Going too (that's not to say don't try to prolong their staying!).. this way you don't get all annoyed when they do.

Take things as they come, and make the most of them... Don't cling to Past things, pining away your life...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."