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Rusty
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8/24/2011 12:34:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I always found it odd that the person who was, you know, in Hell... was selfless enough to try to warn other people.
VocMusTcrMaloy
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8/24/2011 3:51:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 12:34:25 PM, Rusty wrote:
I always found it odd that the person who was, you know, in Hell... was selfless enough to try to warn other people.

Luke 16:27-28?
Rusty
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8/24/2011 4:11:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 3:51:06 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/24/2011 12:34:25 PM, Rusty wrote:
I always found it odd that the person who was, you know, in Hell... was selfless enough to try to warn other people.

Luke 16:27-28?

Yep.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/24/2011 4:48:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 4:11:36 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 8/24/2011 3:51:06 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/24/2011 12:34:25 PM, Rusty wrote:
I always found it odd that the person who was, you know, in Hell... was selfless enough to try to warn other people.

Luke 16:27-28?

Yep.

Just a note: a lot (most?) of New Testament scholars don't think that that parable in Luke has anything to do with the afterlife, hell or otherwise.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/24/2011 4:55:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Luke 16:27-28?

Yep.

Just a note: a lot (most?) of New Testament scholars don't think that that parable in Luke has anything to do with the afterlife, hell or otherwise.:

So you speak on behalf of most scholars? Good to know.

I'm curious to know what your (i.e. most scholars) interpretations of Luke 16 is.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Rusty
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8/24/2011 5:04:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 4:48:43 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/24/2011 4:11:36 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 8/24/2011 3:51:06 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/24/2011 12:34:25 PM, Rusty wrote:
I always found it odd that the person who was, you know, in Hell... was selfless enough to try to warn other people.

Luke 16:27-28?

Yep.

Just a note: a lot (most?) of New Testament scholars don't think that that parable in Luke has anything to do with the afterlife, hell or otherwise.

How could they come to that conclusion from that passage? I'm not saying it's not a parable, but even as a parable, how could one say it has nothing to do with the afterlife? I mean, doesn't the guy even request that others be warned so that they wouldn't end up at this miserable place?
popculturepooka
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8/24/2011 5:16:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 4:55:10 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Luke 16:27-28?

Yep.

Just a note: a lot (most?) of New Testament scholars don't think that that parable in Luke has anything to do with the afterlife, hell or otherwise.:

So you speak on behalf of most scholars? Good to know.

Is that snark I hear? Lol.

I'm curious to know what your (i.e. most scholars) interpretations of Luke 16 is.

If you really want me to I'll post a whole bunch of commentaries, but have you noticed where Lazarus is in the parable? Hades. Hell is referred to as gehenna in the NT. Hell is happens after the final judgement. This, at best, refers to an intermediate state. At worst, it wasn't meant to teach anything about a state of existence and more about eschatalogical reversal. This kind of story was already embedded in the culture and Jesus flips the story to make a theological point. This happens all the time in the bible.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rusty
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8/24/2011 5:29:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I know you were answering him (A certain someone was oddly hostile lol), but that sort of answers my question as well.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/24/2011 7:33:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is that snark I hear? Lol.:

Absolutely!

I'm curious to know what your (i.e. most scholars) interpretations of Luke 16 is.

If you really want me to I'll post a whole bunch of commentaries, but have you noticed where Lazarus is in the parable? Hades. Hell is referred to as gehenna in the NT.:

Hades = hell = Gahenna, or did you not know that the entire New Testament was written in Greek? All three of those are synonyms in three different languages.

Hell is happens after the final judgement. This, at best, refers to an intermediate state.:

Sorry, but that's not biblical. There is no purgatory or intermediate state described in the bible. There's living and there is dead, waiting for the judgment.

At worst, it wasn't meant to teach anything about a state of existence and more about eschatalogical reversal. This kind of story was already embedded in the culture and Jesus flips the story to make a theological point. This happens all the time in the bible.:

Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is. The main point of the parable is that Lazarus was treated like garbage while alive but is rewarded in the hereafter, but the secondary point is that once people pass over, that's it... there is no communication with the dead.

Of course that opens up a lot more debate about ghosts, especially since Jesus personally spoke of ghosts on a few occasions.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
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8/24/2011 7:41:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 7:33:47 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

But "hell's" not a place in which you reside... it's a Furnace in which people are Utterly Annihilated.

Or.. at least that's Really where this argument is going...

Which position's Better supported by the bible I don't know.. I just figured I'd clarify the positions since you seemed to want to know PCP's scholarly understanding.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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8/24/2011 8:01:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 7:41:15 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/24/2011 7:33:47 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

But "hell's" not a place in which you reside... it's a Furnace in which people are Utterly Annihilated.

Or.. at least that's Really where this argument is going...

Which position's Better supported by the bible I don't know.. I just figured I'd clarify the positions since you seemed to want to know PCP's scholarly understanding.

This has nothing to do with my view on hell. Most of these people who advocate this believe in the traditional concept of hell.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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8/24/2011 8:07:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
PCP, people don't like to debate intelligent Christians. Especially if they are named after a drug that causes you to go apeshit and punch holes through windshields while naked and screaming in tongues.

See, when I correct people on their biblical ignorance, very few people say anything because I don't have my religion listed as Christian. I guarantee if I did, I'd have more non-Christians telling me what a parable is supposed to mean.

Instead, I get the Christians trying to argue with me, even though I'm probably the best apologetic one could ask a heathen/heretic/devil worshiping/nazi-communist/wolfman to be.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
popculturepooka
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8/24/2011 8:10:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 7:33:47 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Is that snark I hear? Lol.:

Absolutely!

I'm not sure why.


I'm curious to know what your (i.e. most scholars) interpretations of Luke 16 is.

If you really want me to I'll post a whole bunch of commentaries, but have you noticed where Lazarus is in the parable? Hades. Hell is referred to as gehenna in the NT.:

Hades = hell = Gahenna, or did you not know that the entire New Testament was written in Greek?

Of course I know that. The terms mean different things. Hades =/= Gehenna =/= Tartarus.

Hell is happens after the final judgement. This, at best, refers to an intermediate state.:

Sorry, but that's not biblical. There is no purgatory or intermediate state described in the bible. There's living and there is dead, waiting for the judgment.


I never said that it was biblical (although I'm agnostic on that point). I just said at best the only conclusion you can draw from it is one of an intermediate state - not one of the hell which eternal fates are decided after the judgement.

At worst, it wasn't meant to teach anything about a state of existence and more about eschatalogical reversal. This kind of story was already embedded in the culture and Jesus flips the story to make a theological point. This happens all the time in the bible.:

Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

No, it really isn't.

The main point of the parable is that Lazarus was treated like garbage while alive but is rewarded in the hereafter, but the secondary point is that once people pass over, that's it... there is no communication with the dead.

Of course that opens up a lot more debate about ghosts, especially since Jesus personally spoke of ghosts on a few occasions.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/24/2011 8:13:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 7:41:15 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/24/2011 7:33:47 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

But "hell's" not a place in which you reside... it's a Furnace in which people are Utterly Annihilated.:

"their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." -- Revelation 21:6

Not that it really matters either way. Whether or not it's a place or a state of being, the point is that it's reference.

Which position's Better supported by the bible I don't know.. I just figured I'd clarify the positions since you seemed to want to know PCP's scholarly understanding.:

It's inconsistent, to be sure.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
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8/24/2011 8:14:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 8:01:21 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/24/2011 7:41:15 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/24/2011 7:33:47 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

But "hell's" not a place in which you reside... it's a Furnace in which people are Utterly Annihilated.

Or.. at least that's Really where this argument is going...

Which position's Better supported by the bible I don't know.. I just figured I'd clarify the positions since you seemed to want to know PCP's scholarly understanding.

This has nothing to do with my view on hell. Most of these people who advocate this believe in the traditional concept of hell.

oh, nevermind then.. I thought it seemed relevant.... :/

(really I just like trying to stoke fires and see where they go)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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8/24/2011 8:16:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 8:07:12 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
PCP, people don't like to debate intelligent Christians. Especially if they are named after a drug that causes you to go apeshit and punch holes through windshields while naked and screaming in tongues.

See, when I correct people on their biblical ignorance, very few people say anything because I don't have my religion listed as Christian. I guarantee if I did, I'd have more non-Christians telling me what a parable is supposed to mean.

Instead, I get the Christians trying to argue with me, even though I'm probably the best apologetic one could ask a heathen/heretic/devil worshiping/nazi-communist/wolfman to be.

Haha, this post was great. I'd upvote/"like" this if I could. That bolded part made me literally lol.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/24/2011 8:27:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I find it interesting that the bible uses the word hades which was invented in Greek polytheism to represent the God of the underworld and then used as a translation for the word sheol (which means grave or dwelling of the dead) in Hebrew.

I find this interesting because hades is a word from a completely different religion, yet was used to represent the unquestionable WORD OF GOD.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/24/2011 8:27:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hades = hell = Gahenna, or did you not know that the entire New Testament was written in Greek?

Of course I know that. The terms mean different things. Hades =/= Gehenna =/= Tartarus.:

You really need to consider the target audience. The NT is primarily written on the behalf of all of the pagan world (Greek being the language of commerce in those days). The Greeks believed in Hades, which is remarkably similar to the Jewish conception of hell. Imagine that!

So, using something they already know (Hades) to describe hell is remarkably effective.

For your edification: http://www.gutenberg.org...

Secondly, Gahenna was literally a dump in Palestine. The allusion that Jesus was trying to make to laymen about hell is that it's like Gahenna (something they knew and understood) in that it's good for nothing; to be thrown away; refuse.

So, Gahenna literally was a dump, but metaphorically it represents hell.

Make no mistake, hell/gahenna/hades are all synonymous from a theological perspective.

Sorry, but that's not biblical. There is no purgatory or intermediate state described in the bible. There's living and there is dead, waiting for the judgment.


I never said that it was biblical (although I'm agnostic on that point). I just said at best the only conclusion you can draw from it is one of an intermediate state - not one of the hell which eternal fates are decided after the judgement.:

I don't entertain speculation and vagaries when talking about the bible. My only point is that the referenced Luke chapter and verse is 1. About hell, and 2. That there is an impassable gulf affixed that no one can cross. You seemed to dispute that, so I'm making the case.

Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

No, it really isn't.:

Elaboration would be really awesome at this point. Then what is it in reference to?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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8/24/2011 8:35:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 8:27:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Hades = hell = Gahenna, or did you not know that the entire New Testament was written in Greek?

Of course I know that. The terms mean different things. Hades =/= Gehenna =/= Tartarus.:

You really need to consider the target audience. The NT is primarily written on the behalf of all of the pagan world (Greek being the language of commerce in those days). The Greeks believed in Hades, which is remarkably similar to the Jewish conception of hell. Imagine that!

So, using something they already know (Hades) to describe hell is remarkably effective.

For your edification: http://www.gutenberg.org...

Secondly, Gahenna was literally a dump in Palestine. The allusion that Jesus was trying to make to laymen about hell is that it's like Gahenna (something they knew and understood) in that it's good for nothing; to be thrown away; refuse.

So, Gahenna literally was a dump, but metaphorically it represents hell.

Make no mistake, hell/gahenna/hades are all synonymous from a theological perspective.

Sorry, but that's not biblical. There is no purgatory or intermediate state described in the bible. There's living and there is dead, waiting for the judgment.


I never said that it was biblical (although I'm agnostic on that point). I just said at best the only conclusion you can draw from it is one of an intermediate state - not one of the hell which eternal fates are decided after the judgement.:

I don't entertain speculation and vagaries when talking about the bible. My only point is that the referenced Luke chapter and verse is 1. About hell, and 2. That there is an impassable gulf affixed that no one can cross. You seemed to dispute that, so I'm making the case.

Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

No, it really isn't.:

Elaboration would be really awesome at this point. Then what is it in reference to?

Actually a more accurate representation of biblical hell would have been Tartarus, considering that hades (Hades) was a God and not a place in Greek Polytheism. That's why I find the chosen word usage in the translation interesting.

Tartarus

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
popculturepooka
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8/24/2011 9:12:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 8:27:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Hades = hell = Gahenna, or did you not know that the entire New Testament was written in Greek?

Of course I know that. The terms mean different things. Hades =/= Gehenna =/= Tartarus.:

You really need to consider the target audience. The NT is primarily written on the behalf of all of the pagan world (Greek being the language of commerce in those days). The Greeks believed in Hades, which is remarkably similar to the Jewish conception of hell. Imagine that!


I already know this. Sheol is nothing like hell in Christian sense, btw.

So, using something they already know (Hades) to describe hell is remarkably effective.

For your edification: http://www.gutenberg.org...

Secondly, Gahenna was literally a dump in Palestine. The allusion that Jesus was trying to make to laymen about hell is that it's like Gahenna (something they knew and understood) in that it's good for nothing; to be thrown away; refuse.


I already know this.

So, Gahenna literally was a dump, but metaphorically it represents hell.

Make no mistake, hell/gahenna/hades are all synonymous from a theological perspective.


No. They are not.

*sigh* I have no idea why you presume to take it upon yourself to try and "school" me. I already know all of this. Hades is NOT hell as in the consequences of the final judgement.

Rev 20:14:
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Let's go along with your theory. You say that hades = hell. Presumably you agree that lake of fire also represents hell. Are you trying tell me that HELL is thrown into HELL?!

I don't entertain speculation and vagaries when talking about the bible. My only point is that the referenced Luke chapter and verse is 1. About hell, and 2. That there is an impassable gulf affixed that no one can cross. You seemed to dispute that, so I'm making the case.


I'm disputing that the Rich Man is in hell in the parable.

Yes, I obviously agree that there was not literally all this dialogue going on, but the point is that you said that it was not a reference to hell when it is.

No, it really isn't.:

Elaboration would be really awesome at this point. Then what is it in reference to?

Eschatalogical reversal.

"Thus the message of this parable appears to be two-fold. First, the parable exemplifies the words of the Magnificat (1:52, God puts down the mighty and exalts those of low degree) and the Beatitudes (5:20, 24, the poor are declared blessed, and woe is pronounced upon the rich) (Hultgren 115). Second, the parable serves to "warn and direct the rich about the peril of neglecting the needs of the poor" (115). In effect, the purpose of this parable is to exhort all persons to obey and respect the Word of God."

http://wesley.nnu.edu...
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popculturepooka
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8/24/2011 9:13:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 8:14:24 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

(really I just like trying to stoke fires and see where they go)

>:)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 5:05:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 4:48:43 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/24/2011 4:11:36 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 8/24/2011 3:51:06 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/24/2011 12:34:25 PM, Rusty wrote:
I always found it odd that the person who was, you know, in Hell... was selfless enough to try to warn other people.

Luke 16:27-28?

Yep.

Just a note: a lot (most?) of New Testament scholars don't think that that parable in Luke has anything to do with the afterlife, hell or otherwise.

I'm sure a lot of "scholars" want take Jesus' words and twist them so that they mean something other than what they say. "A lot" of people who claim to follow Jesus want the path to fit their lifestyle rather than make their lifestyle fit His path. I wouldn't be surprised at what "a lot…of...scholars" think!
VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 5:12:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
By the way, did anyone actually view the videos in my OP? I didn't say anything because the videos speak for themselves; however, the comments in this thread aren't about the raising of the dead; which is what this thread is originally about. If you don't watch them all, watch the first two.