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Another word to my atheist friends…

VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you; however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/25/2011 6:09:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you;

I am not criticial of God except for in a purely hypothetical sense, all the arguments against God are merely against a human definition of God.

however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!

This is why I love you, oh don't get wrong I think you are utterly mistaken, maybe a little insane. But this attitude is correct.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
hotdog
Posts: 44
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8/25/2011 8:57:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you; however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!

Good point about the church having many faults. Personally I think its religious people who preach but don't practice it themselves who are the biggest cause of creating atheists. Things like child abuse by priests, killing by muslims, etc etc are the worst crimes because if knowledge of God is our real welfare, these people rob us of our opportunity to have faith in these things by their actions. They stand up and claim to represent God and all they achieve is God's defamation. How careful the religious should be to bring only honour to God by their actions and words.

I always think of the churches as a vehicle for making knowledge of God and religion available to us. Although they are always faulty, they are better than nothing. When they show us the wrong way, it can be a far more poignant lesson about what is right.

I have heard it said that sincerity is invincible. If you really want to know the truth, you will find it. God is not dead - He is there and he will show you the way home.
VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 10:27:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 6:09:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you;

I am not criticial of God except for in a purely hypothetical sense, all the arguments against God are merely against a human definition of God.

however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!

This is why I love you, oh don't get wrong I think you are utterly mistaken,

Quite naturally! Being that I am a Christian and you are an atheist that feeling will be mutual by default.

maybe a little insane. But this attitude is correct.

The "we're right and you're wrong" attitude is the attitude that Jesus confronted in the Pharisees. Because Jesus confronted the Pharisees, Christians see them as "bad" people; however, in the first century, they were seen as the most godly people. Paul even refered to himself as a Pharisee. It is to these godly people that John preached his message of repentance. Before "sinners" will be brought to repentance, the upright, church-going, sign-waving, literature distributing, megaphone yelling Christians MUST repent! The only fingers we should be pointing are the ones that are pointed toward ourselves! We can't expect atheists to do something we won't do ourselves!
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/25/2011 10:43:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You specifically reference the casting out of devils, this in particular interests me.

Possession is widely believed by a number of Christian denominations. The Church of England, which often barely struggles to believe in anything has at least one trained excorcist per diocese. Though Priests are reluctant to fall back on this, recognising more often than not that there is a physical not spiritual cause, they do basically believe in this as a potential recourse in rare cases?

What are these rare cases? How many psychologists and neurologists believe in possession? We would expect several atheists from these professions to now be Christians due to what they have seen.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 12:33:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 8:57:57 AM, hotdog wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you; however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!



Good point about the church having many faults. Personally I think its religious people who preach but don't practice it themselves who are the biggest cause of creating atheists. Things like child abuse by priests, killing by muslims, etc etc are the worst crimes

True, but I think our greatest enemy is apathy! Apathy shows we don't really believe what we teach. If we truly believe that people are going to hell; and, we truly love those people, we would be curled in a fetal position sobbing.

because if knowledge of God is our real welfare, these people rob us of our opportunity to have faith in these things by their actions. They stand up and claim to represent God and all they achieve is God's defamation. How careful the religious should be to bring only honour to God by their actions and words.

I always think of the churches as a vehicle for making knowledge of God and religion available to us. Although they are always faulty, they are better than nothing. When they show us the wrong way, it can be a far more poignant lesson about what is right.

When I speak of "the Church" I am refering to the whole Body of Christ, not individual congregations or denominations. I go to church myself, but I must say the Church is in a sad state at this point in history, including (sometimes especially) the type of churches to which I have been a member.

I have heard it said that sincerity is invincible. If you really want to know the truth, you will find it. God is not dead - He is there and he will show you the way home.

Sincerity, and some "carpet time."
VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 2:29:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 10:43:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You specifically reference the casting out of devils, this in particular interests me.

Possession is widely believed by a number of Christian denominations. The Church of England, which often barely struggles to believe in anything has at least one trained excorcist per diocese. Though Priests are reluctant to fall back on this, recognising more often than not that there is a physical not spiritual cause, they do basically believe in this as a potential recourse in rare cases?

What are these rare cases? How many psychologists and neurologists believe in possession? We would expect several atheists from these professions to now be Christians due to what they have seen.

By the way, have you seen the movie, "The Rite?" Being that the movie is someone's real life story makes it rather interesting!

I know there is a difference in mental illness and demon possession. I believe that some atheists may have experienced having their excrement scared out of them by demon possession; and, may have turned to Christianity as a result, but Izbo would say I was asserting if I said that…LOL! "The Rite" is one such story.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/25/2011 3:06:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you; however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!

I'm not so much critical of most Christian's understanding of God, because it's really none of my business, but i differ from it. Certain adorations of God seem silly to me, and fearing God isn't terribly helpful either.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/25/2011 3:13:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 2:29:44 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/25/2011 10:43:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You specifically reference the casting out of devils, this in particular interests me.

Possession is widely believed by a number of Christian denominations. The Church of England, which often barely struggles to believe in anything has at least one trained excorcist per diocese. Though Priests are reluctant to fall back on this, recognising more often than not that there is a physical not spiritual cause, they do basically believe in this as a potential recourse in rare cases?

What are these rare cases? How many psychologists and neurologists believe in possession? We would expect several atheists from these professions to now be Christians due to what they have seen.

By the way, have you seen the movie, "The Rite?" Being that the movie is someone's real life story makes it rather interesting!

I know there is a difference in mental illness and demon possession. I believe that some atheists may have experienced having their excrement scared out of them by demon possession; and, may have turned to Christianity as a result, but Izbo would say I was asserting if I said that…LOL! "The Rite" is one such story.

No I have not seen it actually, I have however seen the Exorcism of Emily Rose which is a true... well apparently true story. But then the vast majority of people involved were believers.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/25/2011 4:22:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 3:13:28 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/25/2011 2:29:44 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/25/2011 10:43:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You specifically reference the casting out of devils, this in particular interests me.

Possession is widely believed by a number of Christian denominations. The Church of England, which often barely struggles to believe in anything has at least one trained excorcist per diocese. Though Priests are reluctant to fall back on this, recognising more often than not that there is a physical not spiritual cause, they do basically believe in this as a potential recourse in rare cases?

What are these rare cases? How many psychologists and neurologists believe in possession? We would expect several atheists from these professions to now be Christians due to what they have seen.

By the way, have you seen the movie, "The Rite?" Being that the movie is someone's real life story makes it rather interesting!

I know there is a difference in mental illness and demon possession. I believe that some atheists may have experienced having their excrement scared out of them by demon possession; and, may have turned to Christianity as a result, but Izbo would say I was asserting if I said that…LOL! "The Rite" is one such story.

No I have not seen it actually, I have however seen the Exorcism of Emily Rose which is a true... well apparently true story. But then the vast majority of people involved were believers.

In "The Rite," Michael Kovak was an atheist who grew up Catholic. In his family, the men were either priests or undertakers. His father was an undertaker, so he wanted something different. He went to seminary to escape. At the end of his training, he tried to back out of the priesthood, but learned that if he did his scholarship would become a 6 digit student loan which he would have to pay back. His college advisor encouraged him to look into an exorcism course before he made a final decision against the priesthood. The rest is quite a fascinating story.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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8/25/2011 7:58:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you;

Why? Take the problem of evil for example... Let's just assume for the sake or argument that God would create the best possible world, etc... but this world sucks balls - pain and suffering everywhere and a simply idiotic design for his prized creation.

So unless you mean something radically different by "God" than the Judeo-Christian concept, and/or what's in the Bible, there are some VERY significant problems with God.

however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!

One reason for being light on verse 8 is possibly that a cure for leprosy wasn't developed for almost 2000 years after Jesus said to do it. Also, raising the dead is impossible. And on top of that, casting out of demons is usually something done by a psychiatrist, not disciples of Christ. I suppose there are a number of Christian psychiatrists who might qualify in this respect, but the problem isn't that nobody is doing Jesus' work - it's that he just gave them a largely impossible task.
seraine
Posts: 734
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8/26/2011 9:38:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 3:06:26 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:47:00 AM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
As an atheist, when you are critical of God, I'm going to disagree with you; however, when you are critical of the Christian Church, you make many valid points. Often times you point out ways in which we are inconsistent with scripture; which is something we need to hear. I know that you probably are in contact with a number of Christians in the "real world." When one of those Christians confronts you and begins to "preach" to you, I have another verse for your arsenal:

Matthew 10:7-8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Ask your Christian friend why he is so hot and heavy in verse 7, but so light on verse 8! The above are the words of Jesus to His disciples before sending them out to do ministry. As a Christian, I am sad to the lack of supernatural power in the church; so we need you to call us on this one!

I'm not so much critical of most Christian's understanding of God, because it's really none of my business, but i differ from it. Certain adorations of God seem silly to me, and fearing God isn't terribly helpful either.

I agree with bold part.
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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8/26/2011 11:31:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 3:06:26 PM, innomen wrote:
... and fearing God isn't terribly helpful either.

In a strictly moral sense, it is. If you fear that you are going to be judged someday, then perhaps you won't justify things you feel are wrong. The problem with this is, of course, that people are going to choose to intellectualize sin instead of feel it in their heart. Christians are terrible with this. Homosexuality, for instance, is considered a sin that they might "burn in hell" for. So while they're distracted by these 'higher-brain' ideas about sin, they could be ignoring more basic notions of right and wrong. If God is real, then I think he did a good job in instilling in us a sense of morality. If we can't depend on our feelings, then what good is some book...
Rob