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VocMusTcrMaloy!

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/27/2011 7:25:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's okay I am not attacking you, but I am challenging you.

Now I love your attitude, the understanding you have for the atheist position and your wonderfully sensible yet insane insistence on spiritual evidence. However what is lacking is any sort of substantion of these miraculous events to which you allude?

You spoke of the girl with polio, whose leg suddenly grew six inches and she gained the ability to walk. (Sorry if my description is inaccurate, not trying to strawman you). Who was this girl, what was her name? What did her doctor say?

You speak of casting out demons? Where are the psychologists and neurologists who having failed to treat a patient, become convinced there is a supernatural cause and refer them to an exorcists. (There are psychologists that do refer patients to an exorcist in some case, not because they believe, but the patient does, that does not count).

Where are the cancer specialists who have converted? Where are all these ex-atheists? What Churches routinely perform miracles and what Churches don't?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/27/2011 12:36:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Have I been ignored?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
VocMusTcrMaloy
Posts: 189
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8/27/2011 3:04:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/27/2011 7:25:19 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It's okay I am not attacking you, but I am challenging you.

Now I love your attitude, the understanding you have for the atheist position and your wonderfully sensible yet insane insistence on spiritual evidence. However what is lacking is any sort of substantion of these miraculous events to which you allude?

You spoke of the girl with polio, whose leg suddenly grew six inches and she gained the ability to walk. (Sorry if my description is inaccurate, not trying to strawman you). Who was this girl, what was her name? What did her doctor say?

You speak of casting out demons? Where are the psychologists and neurologists who having failed to treat a patient, become convinced there is a supernatural cause and refer them to an exorcists. (There are psychologists that do refer patients to an exorcist in some case, not because they believe, but the patient does, that does not count).

Where are the cancer specialists who have converted? Where are all these ex-atheists? What Churches routinely perform miracles and what Churches don't?

I'm sorry, I just now saw this.

As for the lady who had polio, I would not give out her personal information on the internet without her permission. I'm sure her family wouldn't be happy to know that some nut murdered her because I wanted to make a point in a discussion on debate.org. I know that is drastic; but, many people perceive the disclosure of information on the internet as opening themselves up to the worst. I will contact her on Facebook to see if she would be interested in opening a ddo profile and sharing her story with you.

As for the casting out of demons; I do not have any personal dealings with that area, so I won't be much help there. The movie, "The Rite" is about an atheist who was converted because of exorcism. The real life "Michael Kovak" from the movie is a Rev. Gary Thomas from the book of the same name as the movie.

If you are interested in reading up on documented miracles, I recommend:

Nothing is Impossible With God

I Believe In Miracles, and

Never Too Late

by Kathryn Kuhlman

Jamie Buckingham who was the actual writer for those books also wrote Kuhlman's biography. Buckingham said that he personally witnessed hundreds of miracles while associated with Kuhlman; however, he had strict orders as to what could be included in Kuhlman's books and what could not. The event must be so astounding that it could be nothing other than a miracle (the healing of a head cold would not meet this criteria). The event also had to be documented with medical records. That being the case, I'm sure those books would make for interesting reading.

I want to clarify something. I do not wish to attempt to convince atheists to convert to Christianity through debate. It is my position that the supernatural power to perform miracles is available to the Church today; but, Christians do not meet God's criteria to tap into this power. I realize that this is not something I can prove to an atheist, nor do I wish to prove to an atheist; so proof is irrelevant to my point. My issue is with my fellow Christians, not with atheists. I understand your position and feel that you have a right to take that position because of your limited experiences concerning the supernatural. Christians complain about abortion, atheism, pornography and all kinds of other political and social issues; but, we have brought these things on ourselves because of what we fail to be. I believe that if the Church was what the Church should be, we would shut down abortion clinics without holding a sign, casting a vote or signing a petition. As I understand it, there were a number of taverns and places of ill repute shut down during the Great Awakening in America. I believe it is foolish for Christians to point their fingers at atheists. Our fingers need to be pointed at ourselves!

The bottom line is, I would like to prove the existence of God to you through becoming what I should be and encouraging the Church to become what it should be. I would like to prove God's existence by being used of Him to perform a miracle in your life (I'm of course speaking of you in a general sense to mean atheists, not you personally as that would be hard to achieve on the internet). I don't want to just tell you about the supernatural, I want to be an example of the Supernatural. Debating the issue without the supernatural power to back up what I'm saying is pointless!
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/27/2011 4:08:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have a friend who knows two people, both of whom grew new fingers after blowing them off with firecrackers.

They did so by praying directly to Allah.

I'd tell you more, but I'm pretty sure they want to me keep their information private. I'm not trying to convince you or anything, just know the mosque can do miracles.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/27/2011 4:22:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/27/2011 4:08:03 PM, Wnope wrote:
I have a friend who knows two people, both of whom grew new fingers after blowing them off with firecrackers.

They did so by praying directly to Allah.

I'd tell you more, but I'm pretty sure they want to me keep their information private. I'm not trying to convince you or anything, just know the mosque can do miracles.

I don't believe miracles work that way. If they did, the planes would have missed on 9/11. Someone would have called off the attack on pearl harbor. Germany would have ousted Hitler, or Hitler would have learned to love the Jews. If miracles worked that way, no one would starve. Hurricane Katrina would have been a little storm and not a full blown hurricane. If miracles worked that way, I would not be preparing my home right now for Irene. If miracles worked that way, John Wilkes Boothe would have missed and hit Abraham Lincoln's tall hat. If miracles worked that way, Martin Luther King would be loved by all and still breathing. If miracles worked that way, Ghandi would be loved by all and still breathing, maybe. If miracles worked that way, there would be no war.

Life does not change through prayer, and it doesn't change through wishes. There is a higher power however, and there is justice, but that all exists outside this chaotic world. If ever anything wondrous and beautifully unexpected happened on this Earth, it is of coincidence.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/27/2011 4:42:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/27/2011 4:22:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/27/2011 4:08:03 PM, Wnope wrote:
I have a friend who knows two people, both of whom grew new fingers after blowing them off with firecrackers.

They did so by praying directly to Allah.

I'd tell you more, but I'm pretty sure they want to me keep their information private. I'm not trying to convince you or anything, just know the mosque can do miracles.

I don't believe miracles work that way. If they did, the planes would have missed on 9/11. Someone would have called off the attack on pearl harbor. Germany would have ousted Hitler, or Hitler would have learned to love the Jews. If miracles worked that way, no one would starve. Hurricane Katrina would have been a little storm and not a full blown hurricane. If miracles worked that way, I would not be preparing my home right now for Irene. If miracles worked that way, John Wilkes Boothe would have missed and hit Abraham Lincoln's tall hat. If miracles worked that way, Martin Luther King would be loved by all and still breathing. If miracles worked that way, Ghandi would be loved by all and still breathing, maybe. If miracles worked that way, there would be no war.

Life does not change through prayer, and it doesn't change through wishes. There is a higher power however, and there is justice, but that all exists outside this chaotic world. If ever anything wondrous and beautifully unexpected happened on this Earth, it is of coincidence.

Actually, miracles wouldn't have worked then since no one knew ahead of time what to pray for.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/28/2011 8:04:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/27/2011 3:04:43 PM, VocMusTcrMaloy wrote:
At 8/27/2011 7:25:19 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It's okay I am not attacking you, but I am challenging you.

Now I love your attitude, the understanding you have for the atheist position and your wonderfully sensible yet insane insistence on spiritual evidence. However what is lacking is any sort of substantion of these miraculous events to which you allude?

You spoke of the girl with polio, whose leg suddenly grew six inches and she gained the ability to walk. (Sorry if my description is inaccurate, not trying to strawman you). Who was this girl, what was her name? What did her doctor say?

You speak of casting out demons? Where are the psychologists and neurologists who having failed to treat a patient, become convinced there is a supernatural cause and refer them to an exorcists. (There are psychologists that do refer patients to an exorcist in some case, not because they believe, but the patient does, that does not count).

Where are the cancer specialists who have converted? Where are all these ex-atheists? What Churches routinely perform miracles and what Churches don't?

I'm sorry, I just now saw this.

As for the lady who had polio, I would not give out her personal information on the internet without her permission.

Obviously not no.

I'm sure her family wouldn't be happy to know that some nut murdered her because I wanted to make a point in a discussion on debate.org. I know that is drastic; but, many people perceive the disclosure of information on the internet as opening themselves up to the worst. I will contact her on Facebook to see if she would be interested in opening a ddo profile and sharing her story with you.

I fall into possible fallacy with regards to stories like this. If it were me I would never shut up about it, and I do not understand why anyone would. I then impose this assumption on others and end up discounting stories as nonsense.

If she is willing to open up like this, with the full knowledge that I am a skeptic that will regard her story as an isolated anecdote then that's fair enough. I can promise to be polite, I can't promise anything beyond that.

As for the casting out of demons; I do not have any personal dealings with that area, so I won't be much help there. The movie, "The Rite" is about an atheist who was converted because of exorcism. The real life "Michael Kovak" from the movie is a Rev. Gary Thomas from the book of the same name as the movie.

If you are interested in reading up on documented miracles, I recommend:

Nothing is Impossible With God

I Believe In Miracles, and

Never Too Late

by Kathryn Kuhlman

Jamie Buckingham who was the actual writer for those books also wrote Kuhlman's biography. Buckingham said that he personally witnessed hundreds of miracles while associated with Kuhlman; however, he had strict orders as to what could be included in Kuhlman's books and what could not. The event must be so astounding that it could be nothing other than a miracle (the healing of a head cold would not meet this criteria). The event also had to be documented with medical records. That being the case, I'm sure those books would make for interesting reading.

Okay, I will have to raid amazon at some poinjt.


I want to clarify something. I do not wish to attempt to convince atheists to convert to Christianity through debate. It is my position that the supernatural power to perform miracles is available to the Church today; but, Christians do not meet God's criteria to tap into this power. I realize that this is not something I can prove to an atheist, nor do I wish to prove to an atheist; so proof is irrelevant to my point. My issue is with my fellow Christians, not with atheists. I understand your position and feel that you have a right to take that position because of your limited experiences concerning the supernatural. Christians complain about abortion, atheism, pornography and all kinds of other political and social issues; but, we have brought these things on ourselves because of what we fail to be. I believe that if the Church was what the Church should be, we would shut down abortion clinics without holding a sign, casting a vote or signing a petition. As I understand it, there were a number of taverns and places of ill repute shut down during the Great Awakening in America. I believe it is foolish for Christians to point their fingers at atheists. Our fingers need to be pointed at ourselves!

The bottom line is, I would like to prove the existence of God to you through becoming what I should be and encouraging the Church to become what it should be. I would like to prove God's existence by being used of Him to perform a miracle in your life (I'm of course speaking of you in a general sense to mean atheists, not you personally as that would be hard to achieve on the internet). I don't want to just tell you about the supernatural, I want to be an example of the Supernatural. Debating the issue without the supernatural power to back up what I'm saying is pointless!

Fair enough.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.