Total Posts:26|Showing Posts:1-26
Jump to topic:

evidence

jd6089
Posts: 12
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jd6089
Posts: 12
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 8:15:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I will say what do you want from me I looked for you and did not find you.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 8:16:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's wager is nonsense, for instance it ignores the possibility of a god who doesn't want you to believe. I mean seriously why would a god want to spend eternity with a bunch of gullible people who believe nonsense stories like virgin births or messiahs riding a white horse to heaven. Seriously, what if the gullible were the ones being punished for the complete and utter failure to respect and use what would be a god's finest creation, the human brain.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
jd6089
Posts: 12
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.
jd6089
Posts: 12
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 8:19:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:16:25 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's wager is nonsense, for instance it ignores the possibility of a god who doesn't want you to believe. I mean seriously why would a god want to spend eternity with a bunch of gullible people who believe nonsense stories like virgin births or messiahs riding a white horse to heaven. Seriously, what if the gullible were the ones being punished for the complete and utter failure to respect and use what would be a god's finest creation, the human brain.

what ifs are non since. You do your best. taking in all positive and negative, factors
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 9:39:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.

The reason people reject Pascals wager, is because it is logically flawed. You are essentially being a hypocrite if you accept a pascals wager for one religion, while rejecting another.

Althoug i dont understand what you mean by "Hardcore atheist"(Are you talking about Anti-theism?), you dont have to be a hardcore atheist to reject Pascals Wager. Infact, i know of some Theists who reject Pascals wager.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 9:41:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:19:53 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:16:25 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's wager is nonsense, for instance it ignores the possibility of a god who doesn't want you to believe. I mean seriously why would a god want to spend eternity with a bunch of gullible people who believe nonsense stories like virgin births or messiahs riding a white horse to heaven. Seriously, what if the gullible were the ones being punished for the complete and utter failure to respect and use what would be a god's finest creation, the human brain.

what ifs are non since. You do your best. taking in all positive and negative, factors

"What if" is the core of Pascals Wager. I agree, it is nonsense, which is why i believe Pascals Wager is nonsense.

BTW, Agnostic doesnt mean youre not an atheist. Im an agnostic atheist.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 9:43:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:15:04 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I will say what do you want from me I looked for you and did not find you.

So you see that Pascal's wager is worthless?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 9:43:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Interesting how the topic switched to Pascal's wager. I just had a whole debate on it so I won't discus it here.

I am no rabbi but being one of the only Jews on this site, I'll take the position.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 9:45:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.

I just told you why I rejected Pascal's Wager, so yes you do know.

It is utterly invalid, we do not decide to believe things if we are rational people. It is not a switch we can flick. Even if we could there are thousands of religions, by choosing one we damn ourselves in the eyes of the others.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 9:51:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 9:43:01 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Interesting how the topic switched to Pascal's wager. I just had a whole debate on it so I won't discus it here.

I am no rabbi but being one of the only Jews on this site, I'll take the position.

The topic didnt switch to pascals wager, the original comment was strictly talking about Pascals wager in the first place.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:07:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 9:51:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/29/2011 9:43:01 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Interesting how the topic switched to Pascal's wager. I just had a whole debate on it so I won't discus it here.

I am no rabbi but being one of the only Jews on this site, I'll take the position.

The topic didn't switch to Pascal's wager, the original comment was strictly talking about Pascals wager in the first place.

Strictly talking about pascals wager?

If you read what he wrote that wasnt what he wanted to discuss.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:09:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 9:45:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.

I just told you why I rejected Pascal's Wager, so yes you do know.

It is utterly invalid, we do not decide to believe things if we are rational people. It is not a switch we can flick.

Pascal's wager doesn't tell you to believe. It tells you follow god even if your not shore.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:11:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 9:45:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.

I just told you why I rejected Pascal's Wager, so yes you do know.

Even if we could there are thousands of religions, by choosing one we damn ourselves in the eyes of the others.

Thats why he is doing his best to try and figur out the right one.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:16:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 10:07:17 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 9:51:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/29/2011 9:43:01 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Interesting how the topic switched to Pascal's wager. I just had a whole debate on it so I won't discus it here.

I am no rabbi but being one of the only Jews on this site, I'll take the position.

The topic didn't switch to Pascal's wager, the original comment was strictly talking about Pascals wager in the first place.

Strictly talking about pascals wager?

If you read what he wrote that wasnt what he wanted to discuss.

What he wanted to discuss, was which religion he should pick, based on the conclusion he arrived from pascals wager. So yes, he was talking about pascals wager and which religion he should choose.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:17:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 10:09:57 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 9:45:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.

I just told you why I rejected Pascal's Wager, so yes you do know.

It is utterly invalid, we do not decide to believe things if we are rational people. It is not a switch we can flick.

Pascal's wager doesn't tell you to believe. It tells you follow god even if your not shore.

It tells you to believe in God, does it not?

BTW its "Youre" and "Sure".
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:30:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 9:43:01 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Interesting how the topic switched to Pascal's wager. I just had a whole debate on it so I won't discus it here.

I am no rabbi but being one of the only Jews on this site, I'll take the position.

Arguments from historical events or personages:

Judaism asserts that God intervened in key specific moments in history, especially at the Exodus and the giving of the Ten Commandments in front of all the tribes of Israel, positing an argument from empirical evidence stemming from sheer number of witnesses, thus demonstrating his existence.[1]

3 Fulfilled prophesies of old testament:

1) Survival of the Jew:
I would like to open with a quote from mark twain in his work entitled "Concerning the Jew":
"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"
We see from these quotes the impressive eternity of the Jew.
This has been foretold in the bible Genesis 17:7, Malachi 3:6, Leviticus 5:18, Jeremiah 5:18.

2) prophesy of Jews as "light unto the nations"

For the next quotes I give credit to simpletoremember.com:

"I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe..."
- John Adams, Second President of the United States
(From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society)

"If we were forced to choose just one, there would be no way to deny that Judaism is the most important intellectual development in human history."
- David Gelernter, Yale University Professor

"Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great Britain

The "Jewish light unto the nations" was foretold in Isaiah 42:6 end, ibid.60:3 genesis 12:2, 3.

3) Return of the Jews to Israel after thousands of years of exile. And the lands subsequent revival:
Next is the correlation between fertility of the land of Israel and its inhibition of the Jews.
Again I quote mark twain I don't have space to quote it in its entirety so the reader is encouraged to look it up "Innocent Abroad or the new pilgrim's progress", vol.2 pp.216-359.
Mark Twain wrights of the desolation and unsuitability of the holy land.
As we see today the land of Israel is now an agricultural land following the return of the Jews.
The sources for this prophesy are Leviticus 26:32, 33 duteronamy29:21, 22 Jerimia9:10 Ezekiel33:28, 29 all predict the desolation of the land.
The return is predicted in Deuteronomy 30:3-5.
And its following in habitation and fertilization in Ezekiel36:8-11.
We see here the prediction and realization of the Jews miraculous return followed by the lands mysterious revitalization. I thank Shmuel Waldman for all biblical sources.[2]

Hope this is helpful.

A Google search will show you more:

<a>http://www.google.co.il...

[1] <a>http://en.wikipedia.org...,
[2] <a>http://www.debate.org...
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:33:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It tells you to believe in God, does it not?

Pascals wager from wikipedia:

"Even if the existence of God could not be determined through reason, a rational person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose."
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 10:36:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 10:09:57 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 9:45:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:17:43 AM, jd6089 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Pascal's Wager makes no sense. If you are a rational person you do not decide what the truth is, the truth needs to make the case that decides you. Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I don't know why you reject Pascal's wager, unless you are a hard core atheist, in which case I can't understand how any one can be a hard core atheist.

I just told you why I rejected Pascal's Wager, so yes you do know.

It is utterly invalid, we do not decide to believe things if we are rational people. It is not a switch we can flick.

Pascal's wager doesn't tell you to believe. It tells you follow god even if your not shore.

No... then it would make a fraction more sense.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 11:24:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 10:33:22 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
It tells you to believe in God, does it not?

Pascals wager from wikipedia:

"Even if the existence of God could not be determined through reason, a rational person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose."

In other words, believe that a God exists. I rest my case.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 11:37:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 11:24:01 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/29/2011 10:33:22 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
It tells you to believe in God, does it not?

Pascals wager from wikipedia:

"Even if the existence of God could not be determined through reason, a rational person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose."

In other words, believe that a God exists. I rest my case.

Yes. To the extent that you can. If you can't you can't. But try. If you take the time to read all the various profs of god, chances are you won't have a very hard time.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 11:52:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 10:30:43 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 9:43:01 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 7:06:13 AM, jd6089 wrote:
K so as an agnostic I go with Pascal's wager. Now what which do I pick.
I need a priest a rabbi and an imam to fight this out. I'm pretty well versed in the basics of each so Lets jump right in.

Interesting how the topic switched to Pascal's wager. I just had a whole debate on it so I won't discus it here.

I am no rabbi but being one of the only Jews on this site, I'll take the position.

Arguments from historical events or personages:

Judaism asserts that God intervened in key specific moments in history, especially at the Exodus and the giving of the Ten Commandments in front of all the tribes of Israel, positing an argument from empirical evidence stemming from sheer number of witnesses, thus demonstrating his existence.[1]


3 Fulfilled prophesies of old testament:

1) Survival of the Jew:
I would like to open with a quote from mark twain in his work entitled "Concerning the Jew":
"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"
We see from these quotes the impressive eternity of the Jew.
This has been foretold in the bible Genesis 17:7, Malachi 3:6, Leviticus 5:18, Jeremiah 5:18.

2) prophesy of Jews as "light unto the nations"

For the next quotes I give credit to simpletoremember.com:

"I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe..."
- John Adams, Second President of the United States
(From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society)

"If we were forced to choose just one, there would be no way to deny that Judaism is the most important intellectual development in human history."
- David Gelernter, Yale University Professor

"Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great Britain

The "Jewish light unto the nations" was foretold in Isaiah 42:6 end, ibid.60:3 genesis 12:2, 3.

3) Return of the Jews to Israel after thousands of years of exile. And the lands subsequent revival:
Next is the correlation between fertility of the land of Israel and its inhibition of the Jews.
Again I quote mark twain I don't have space to quote it in its entirety so the reader is encouraged to look it up "Innocent Abroad or the new pilgrim's progress", vol.2 pp.216-359.
Mark Twain wrights of the desolation and unsuitability of the holy land.
As we see today the land of Israel is now an agricultural land following the return of the Jews.
The sources for this prophesy are Leviticus 26:32, 33 duteronamy29:21, 22 Jerimia9:10 Ezekiel33:28, 29 all predict the desolation of the land.
The return is predicted in Deuteronomy 30:3-5.
And its following in habitation and fertilization in Ezekiel36:8-11.
We see here the prediction and realization of the Jews miraculous return followed by the lands mysterious revitalization. I thank Shmuel Waldman for all biblical sources.[2]

Hope this is helpful.

A Google search will show you more:

<a>http://www.google.co.il...




[1] <a>http://en.wikipedia.org...,
[2] <a>http://www.debate.org...

Pretty funny, the only ones who responded were atheists.

I'll be away for a while now. So basicly my responce to christians and muslims is, "a problem of insuficiant evidence that god changed his mind.".

They are all based on judaisim but added things based on a few peoples claims.

There is one form of christianity which I accept.
This form of christianity regects the new testament, and regards jesus as just a teacher.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 12:04:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 11:37:58 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 8/29/2011 11:24:01 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/29/2011 10:33:22 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
It tells you to believe in God, does it not?

Pascals wager from wikipedia:

"Even if the existence of God could not be determined through reason, a rational person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose."

In other words, believe that a God exists. I rest my case.

Yes. To the extent that you can. If you can't you can't. But try. If you take the time to read all the various profs of god, chances are you won't have a very hard time.

I completely agree. If you take the time to read all the various proofs of God, and stop there, chances are you wont have a very hard time believing in God.

But then, if you go beyond that, and take the time to read all the various counter arguments and objections raised against those various proofs, chances are you will stop believing in God, and it wont be very hard either.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2011 12:52:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just for fun, heres the counter argument and objections against your evidences.

At 8/29/2011 10:30:43 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of.

First off, Romani, or the more commonly known alias, Gypsies, are a smaller minority than the Jews, yet they are known just as well in todays society, mainly due to one occurance: The holocaust. It shouldnt surprise you at all that the Jewish are well known after what happened in the concentration camps.

Secondly, Judaism is the primary branch of Christianty and Islam, the two largest religions in the world. You would have to be an utter ignorant christian to not know the existance of a Jew.

He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers

Ditto to every other ethnicity, minority or not.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.

Funny, last time i checked, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks and Romans still exist, even today.

The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind.

How have the jews "Beat them"?

All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

As opposed to the secret of the immortality of the Hindus, a religion and ethnicity that is as old as the Jews themselves?
This has been foretold in the bible Genesis 17:7, Malachi 3:6, Leviticus 5:18, Jeremiah 5:18.

This is the same as people who bring up the prophecy of how wars will still exist, and somehow laud that as a fullfilled and miraculous prophecy. It shouldnt surprise anyone that Wars still exist, anymore than it should suprirse anyone that Jews or Greeks or Hindus still exist. Please explain how this argument is convincing? I can make the prophecy that in 1000 years, man will still have wars, and chances are, i would be right.

"I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe..."
- John Adams, Second President of the United States
(From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society)

If Judaism is a light, it isnt burning very brightly today. What percent of the world adheres to Judaism? How many of the laws of the Torah do we keep today in any first world country that has a decent standard of living?

No one is saying that the Jews were not very strong in the past. They conquered much of Europe through many wars and conflicts. But are they a light unto other nations? How many laws are based off the 613 Jewish laws? Do we still uphold Slavery, and other cherished laws? Or do we reject their laws and call them, not only immoral, but downright barbaric? Stoning adulterers and non-virgins?

Please explain how this constitutes as a light unto other nations.

"If we were forced to choose just one, there would be no way to deny that Judaism is the most important intellectual development in human history."
- David Gelernter, Yale University Professor

Thank you David Gelernter, for that opinion peice about a religion you yourself adhere to. Why dont we have any Muslim scholars who are claiming the same thing?

"Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great Britain

Again, another opinion piece from Churchill. BTW, Churchill was talking about the Jewish ethnicity and not those that followed Judaism. I believe he called them "Atheistical Jews", so this quote is sorta moot.

We see here the prediction and realization of the Jews miraculous return followed by the lands mysterious revitalization. I thank Shmuel Waldman for all biblical sources.[2]

Fail.

First off many of the main cities in Israel, especially the Costal cities, have existed for many thousands of years, Tel aviv being one of them. These coastal areas and the northern landscapes have always been easy to irrigate, thanks to easily available water sources.

Secondly, read the history. Until the 20th century, most of the agriculture relied on rain and thus was severely weak. Then, technology came along, and modern methods to search for water, drill deeper and penetrate hard rocks, provided the grounds for irrigation and successful agriculture. In other words, modern technology paved the way.

So, we have parts of israel that were already fertile, and parts that became fertile thanks to technology. How is this any different than taking an aspirin, praying for your headache to go away, and concluding that it must have been God who removed your headache? Or better yet, predicting that a persons headache will go away after giving them an aspirin? Furthermore, the Jews chose to relocate themselves to Israel BECAUSE of what was written in the bible. How do you find any of this convincing?

Hope this helps, and hope you reply with some good counter arguments.
VainApocalypse
Posts: 74
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/30/2011 12:58:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/29/2011 8:07:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Also it is not restricted to those three religions. There are hundreds of sub-groups of Christianity, several for Judaism, 17 broad denominations in Islam.

What if you when you die you are sent to Hades, having incurred the anger of Zeus for abandoning the one true faith?

I think Pascal's Wager addresses this last qualm, but that you overlook its true weakness.

Yes, there are thousands of potential faiths to choose from, but Pascal's argument is that choosing any of them is statistically safer than choosing none of them. It is not a case for any specific family of religions but one for theism in general.

In actuality, though, it fails as that as well. It presupposes that if you get lucky and choose to worship the correct god that you will be rewarded for doing so. It doesn't, however, consider the possibility of gods or attributes of god that are unrevealed. What if, for example, the true god only rewards people who never believed in him at all? That description of a god is as probable as any other, so it follows from Pascal's Wager that atheism is no more of a dangerous gamble than theism.