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A and E could not know love without eating of

GreatestIam
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8/31/2011 2:42:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A and E could not know love without eating of the TOK.

There are many discussions centered around the story of Eden regardless of whether you read it literally, as allegory, figurative or myth.

Some believe that Satan lied, some that God lied.
Some see it as man's fall while others, the Orthodox Jews who wrote the O T, see it as man's elevation.
Some think becoming as Gods is good, Jews, some not. Christians.
Some give A & E free will yet the first time it is used, God punished them.
A & E are supposed to be autonomous yet cannot know they are without doing their will instead of the will of God.
Some see the punishments and original sin given as unjust and unbiblical.
Some point to the fact that disobedience to God deserves anything God wants to do too them as well as all their descendents. Again contradicted by scripture.
Some think that to become as Gods with a moral sense is worth any punishment or hardship.

The terms used in Eden are always in dispute.
What did God mean with, you shall surely die? A death innocence, there eyes were opened? Or a physical death that is passed on to all men?
Who or what was the serpent or what does he represent?
In other words, in 2000 years of debate, Eden and a fall or elevation, has not moved to any accepted conclusions.

That is why I would like to focus on the issue of love and what Eden would be like if A & E had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A & E could not know love as it is good and they had no knowledge of good.
Perhaps by entering the story from this angle, some progress might actually be gained.
Certainly none has been gained by any other means.

The oldest tradition started with Eden as our elevation from ignorance to having a moral sense.

http://www.mrrena.com...

Christianity later usurped the Jewish scriptures, embraced them as a part of the bible, and promptly turned the moral of the story from what the Jews had in place, to the fall of man. Blamed for bringing death to the earth and cursed with original sin. A guilt trip that all were to share.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Where Jews empowered man, the Christians as Bishop Spong says, went into the guilt producing business.

Now, on to speaking of love.

I see Eden, before our elevation or fall, depending on your POV, as resembling this clip that shows, in a good analogy, what Eden may have been like.

You have seen that love certainly was not about in that clip and without it, people would not care for each other. I contend therefore that in Eden, if A & E had not gained a moral sense, thus enabling them to know love as something good, life for man would not be worth living.

The Jewish interpretation the gain of love as a huge plus while Christianity would shun this virtue and instead opt for blind obedience as the more valuable virtue. They chose to make slavery a virtue, instead the notion of rebellion against tyranny. You may have noted that nowhere in scripture is slavery condemned. In fact Paul teaches just how to beat your slaves. Nowhere in scripture is woman given equality because Eve was made from Adam's rib and is declare to be the head of woman. This is also contrasted by the opposing view that the Jews had of Lilith, Adams first mate who is given, or better said, takes full equality.

The Christian Eden began devoid of love. When A & E gained the ability to love, through the gain of knowledge and wisdom, God shoes clearly that there is no love in his heart and that he is a jealous God who is culpable for allowing death to enter the world by locking away the tree of life. That same tree which he had already told A & E they could eat from, thus in effect, killing them. Some would say murdering them.

What would you do if you were Adam or Eve?
Create the conditions where love nor death could be found on earth and live as in that clip of The Time Machine, or would you follow Eve and choose knowledge and wisdom and become as Gods, God's words, and disobey a command that you could not know, without first eating of the tree of knowledge, that that would be an evil act?

Whose interpretation of Eden do you think makes more sense and is better for mankind?
The Jewish interpretation of man's elevation, or the Christian one of the fall and promotion of blind obedience?

Regards
DL

P S. Which tune do you like.

Or.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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9/1/2011 10:57:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/31/2011 2:42:14 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
A and E could not know love without eating of the TOK.

There are many discussions centered around the story of Eden regardless of whether you read it literally, as allegory, figurative or myth.

Some believe that Satan lied, some that God lied.
Some see it as man's fall while others, the Orthodox Jews who wrote the O T, see it as man's elevation.
Some think becoming as Gods is good, Jews, some not. Christians.
Some give A & E free will yet the first time it is used, God punished them.
A & E are supposed to be autonomous yet cannot know they are without doing their will instead of the will of God.
Some see the punishments and original sin given as unjust and unbiblical.
Some point to the fact that disobedience to God deserves anything God wants to do too them as well as all their descendents. Again contradicted by scripture.
Some think that to become as Gods with a moral sense is worth any punishment or hardship.

The terms used in Eden are always in dispute.
What did God mean with, you shall surely die? A death innocence, there eyes were opened? Or a physical death that is passed on to all men?
Who or what was the serpent or what does he represent?
In other words, in 2000 years of debate, Eden and a fall or elevation, has not moved to any accepted conclusions.

That is why I would like to focus on the issue of love and what Eden would be like if A & E had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A & E could not know love as it is good and they had no knowledge of good.
Perhaps by entering the story from this angle, some progress might actually be gained.
Certainly none has been gained by any other means.

The oldest tradition started with Eden as our elevation from ignorance to having a moral sense.

http://www.mrrena.com...

Christianity later usurped the Jewish scriptures, embraced them as a part of the bible, and promptly turned the moral of the story from what the Jews had in place, to the fall of man. Blamed for bringing death to the earth and cursed with original sin. A guilt trip that all were to share.

http://en.wikipedia.org...



Where Jews empowered man, the Christians as Bishop Spong says, went into the guilt producing business.

Now, on to speaking of love.

I see Eden, before our elevation or fall, depending on your POV, as resembling this clip that shows, in a good analogy, what Eden may have been like.



You have seen that love certainly was not about in that clip and without it, people would not care for each other. I contend therefore that in Eden, if A & E had not gained a moral sense, thus enabling them to know love as something good, life for man would not be worth living.

The Jewish interpretation the gain of love as a huge plus while Christianity would shun this virtue and instead opt for blind obedience as the more valuable virtue. They chose to make slavery a virtue, instead the notion of rebellion against tyranny. You may have noted that nowhere in scripture is slavery condemned. In fact Paul teaches just how to beat your slaves. Nowhere in scripture is woman given equality because Eve was made from Adam's rib and is declare to be the head of woman. This is also contrasted by the opposing view that the Jews had of Lilith, Adams first mate who is given, or better said, takes full equality.

The Christian Eden began devoid of love. When A & E gained the ability to love, through the gain of knowledge and wisdom, God shoes clearly that there is no love in his heart and that he is a jealous God who is culpable for allowing death to enter the world by locking away the tree of life. That same tree which he had already told A & E they could eat from, thus in effect, killing them. Some would say murdering them.

What would you do if you were Adam or Eve?
Create the conditions where love nor death could be found on earth and live as in that clip of The Time Machine, or would you follow Eve and choose knowledge and wisdom and become as Gods, God's words, and disobey a command that you could not know, without first eating of the tree of knowledge, that that would be an evil act?

Whose interpretation of Eden do you think makes more sense and is better for mankind?
The Jewish interpretation of man's elevation, or the Christian one of the fall and promotion of blind obedience?

Regards
DL

P S. Which tune do you like.


Or.


I think it is worth noting that I am an atheist, but I grew up in a Jewish family. Though I think I would have been an atheist one way or another, I am greatful that my parents encouraged me to pave my own path in this life. This would be opposed to living life based on faith, and simply accepting any and everything life hands you and calling it god's will. In short, I am all for the empowerment of the individual, as long as others are not harmed in the process.
Greyparrot
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9/2/2011 12:18:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The more you post these disturbing videos, the more I wonder if we are leading immoral lives by not killing our pets and burning them as a sacrifice. How many people really worship the old God as he was written about?
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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9/2/2011 3:09:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/1/2011 10:57:53 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:

I think it is worth noting that I am an atheist, but I grew up in a Jewish family. Though I think I would have been an atheist one way or another, I am greatful that my parents encouraged me to pave my own path in this life. This would be opposed to living life based on faith, and simply accepting any and everything life hands you and calling it god's will. In short, I am all for the empowerment of the individual, as long as others are not harmed in the process.

If only all parents were so bright.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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9/2/2011 3:14:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 12:18:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
The more you post these disturbing videos, the more I wonder if we are leading immoral lives by not killing our pets and burning them as a sacrifice. How many people really worship the old God as he was written about?

Personally, I think that the number is relatively small.
Most are worshipping tradition and culture but will not admit to it even with proof.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/3/2011 5:12:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/31/2011 2:42:14 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
A and E could not know love without eating of the TOK.

There are many discussions centered around the story of Eden regardless of whether you read it literally, as allegory, figurative or myth.

Some believe that Satan lied, some that God lied.
Some see it as man's fall while others, the Orthodox Jews who wrote the O T, see it as man's elevation.
Some think becoming as Gods is good, Jews, some not. Christians.
Some give A & E free will yet the first time it is used, God punished them.
A & E are supposed to be autonomous yet cannot know they are without doing their will instead of the will of God.
Some see the punishments and original sin given as unjust and unbiblical.
Some point to the fact that disobedience to God deserves anything God wants to do too them as well as all their descendents. Again contradicted by scripture.
Some think that to become as Gods with a moral sense is worth any punishment or hardship.

The terms used in Eden are always in dispute.
What did God mean with, you shall surely die? A death innocence, there eyes were opened? Or a physical death that is passed on to all men?
Who or what was the serpent or what does he represent?
In other words, in 2000 years of debate, Eden and a fall or elevation, has not moved to any accepted conclusions.

That is why I would like to focus on the issue of love and what Eden would be like if A & E had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A & E could not know love as it is good and they had no knowledge of good.
Perhaps by entering the story from this angle, some progress might actually be gained.
Certainly none has been gained by any other means.

The oldest tradition started with Eden as our elevation from ignorance to having a moral sense.

http://www.mrrena.com...

Christianity later usurped the Jewish scriptures, embraced them as a part of the bible, and promptly turned the moral of the story from what the Jews had in place, to the fall of man. Blamed for bringing death to the earth and cursed with original sin. A guilt trip that all were to share.

http://en.wikipedia.org...



Where Jews empowered man, the Christians as Bishop Spong says, went into the guilt producing business.

Now, on to speaking of love.

I see Eden, before our elevation or fall, depending on your POV, as resembling this clip that shows, in a good analogy, what Eden may have been like.



You have seen that love certainly was not about in that clip and without it, people would not care for each other. I contend therefore that in Eden, if A & E had not gained a moral sense, thus enabling them to know love as something good, life for man would not be worth living.

The Jewish interpretation the gain of love as a huge plus while Christianity would shun this virtue and instead opt for blind obedience as the more valuable virtue. They chose to make slavery a virtue, instead the notion of rebellion against tyranny. You may have noted that nowhere in scripture is slavery condemned. In fact Paul teaches just how to beat your slaves. Nowhere in scripture is woman given equality because Eve was made from Adam's rib and is declare to be the head of woman. This is also contrasted by the opposing view that the Jews had of Lilith, Adams first mate who is given, or better said, takes full equality.

The Christian Eden began devoid of love. When A & E gained the ability to love, through the gain of knowledge and wisdom, God shoes clearly that there is no love in his heart and that he is a jealous God who is culpable for allowing death to enter the world by locking away the tree of life. That same tree which he had already told A & E they could eat from, thus in effect, killing them. Some would say murdering them.

What would you do if you were Adam or Eve?
Create the conditions where love nor death could be found on earth and live as in that clip of The Time Machine, or would you follow Eve and choose knowledge and wisdom and become as Gods, God's words, and disobey a command that you could not know, without first eating of the tree of knowledge, that that would be an evil act?

Whose interpretation of Eden do you think makes more sense and is better for mankind?
The Jewish interpretation of man's elevation, or the Christian one of the fall and promotion of blind obedience?

Regards
DL

P S. Which tune do you like.


Or.


He meant spiritual death and by looking at the world around you, you can ascertain that God was NOT lying; only the dead can create a world such as ours.
The Cross.. the Cross.
izbo10
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9/3/2011 9:35:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The reason for the story that seems most likely to me is that it was meant at the time to control the masses. It tells of punishment for eating the tree of knowledge. So it is the powerful telling the weak you will be punished by god for gaining too much knowledge.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/5/2011 8:28:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/3/2011 9:35:47 AM, izbo10 wrote:
The reason for the story that seems most likely to me is that it was meant at the time to control the masses. It tells of punishment for eating the tree of knowledge. So it is the powerful telling the weak you will be punished by god for gaining too much knowledge.

No, it's a way of being fair about free-will: for complete free will to exist we must be free to rape and murder etc.. so God put all of the nasty stuff in ONE choice, the choice to disobey Him.

He ALSO warned, in the strongest possible terms, AGAINST it.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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9/5/2011 8:31:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/3/2011 9:26:56 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Thanks for---nothing of substance.

Regards
DL

When you find the courage to back up your statements with formal debates THEN you'll no longer have to 'act' high n' mighty..

Until then, you're only pretending.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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9/5/2011 11:00:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/5/2011 8:28:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2011 9:35:47 AM, izbo10 wrote:
The reason for the story that seems most likely to me is that it was meant at the time to control the masses. It tells of punishment for eating the tree of knowledge. So it is the powerful telling the weak you will be punished by god for gaining too much knowledge.

No, it's a way of being fair about free-will: for complete free will to exist we must be free to rape and murder etc.. so God put all of the nasty stuff in ONE choice, the choice to disobey Him.

He ALSO warned, in the strongest possible terms, AGAINST it.

For complete free will to exist for a person, they must do something that is their will and not God's, to prove that they actually have free will.

That is what A & E did by choosing to do as scripture says and be as God.
God confirms that they did and then for some unknown reason, unless it was pure jealousy, therw a sissy fit and threw his own Word out the window by punishing the innocent for someone elses infraction.

Quite an immoral act.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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9/5/2011 11:04:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/5/2011 8:31:10 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2011 9:26:56 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Thanks for---nothing of substance.

Regards
DL

When you find the courage to back up your statements with formal debates THEN you'll no longer have to 'act' high n' mighty..

Until then, you're only pretending.

So debate fool instead of just following me around with personal and abusive empty posts.

It does not bother me because I am used to your ilk and sort of like it in terms of the lurkers learning of your abusive Christian style, bit other than that, it is a waste of time.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
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9/8/2011 4:47:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/5/2011 11:04:16 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/5/2011 8:31:10 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2011 9:26:56 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Thanks for---nothing of substance.

Regards
DL

When you find the courage to back up your statements with formal debates THEN you'll no longer have to 'act' high n' mighty..

Until then, you're only pretending.

So debate fool instead of just following me around with personal and abusive empty posts.

It does not bother me because I am used to your ilk and sort of like it in terms of the lurkers learning of your abusive Christian style, bit other than that, it is a waste of time.

Regards
DL

So, you'll accept a formal debate challenge from me, yes?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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9/8/2011 4:49:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/5/2011 11:00:36 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/5/2011 8:28:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2011 9:35:47 AM, izbo10 wrote:
The reason for the story that seems most likely to me is that it was meant at the time to control the masses. It tells of punishment for eating the tree of knowledge. So it is the powerful telling the weak you will be punished by god for gaining too much knowledge.

No, it's a way of being fair about free-will: for complete free will to exist we must be free to rape and murder etc.. so God put all of the nasty stuff in ONE choice, the choice to disobey Him.

He ALSO warned, in the strongest possible terms, AGAINST it.

For complete free will to exist for a person, they must do something that is their will and not God's, to prove that they actually have free will.

That is what A & E did by choosing to do as scripture says and be as God.
God confirms that they did and then for some unknown reason, unless it was pure jealousy, therw a sissy fit and threw his own Word out the window by punishing the innocent for someone elses infraction.

Quite an immoral act.

Regards
DL

How was eating the friut THEIR will?

It was SATANS will, dressed up to look like their will!
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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9/9/2011 12:03:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/8/2011 4:49:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/5/2011 11:00:36 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/5/2011 8:28:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2011 9:35:47 AM, izbo10 wrote:
The reason for the story that seems most likely to me is that it was meant at the time to control the masses. It tells of punishment for eating the tree of knowledge. So it is the powerful telling the weak you will be punished by god for gaining too much knowledge.

No, it's a way of being fair about free-will: for complete free will to exist we must be free to rape and murder etc.. so God put all of the nasty stuff in ONE choice, the choice to disobey Him.

He ALSO warned, in the strongest possible terms, AGAINST it.

For complete free will to exist for a person, they must do something that is their will and not God's, to prove that they actually have free will.

That is what A & E did by choosing to do as scripture says and be as God.
God confirms that they did and then for some unknown reason, unless it was pure jealousy, therw a sissy fit and threw his own Word out the window by punishing the innocent for someone elses infraction.

Quite an immoral act.

Regards
DL

How was eating the friut THEIR will?

It was SATANS will, dressed up to look like their will!

Not their own will!

If it was Satan's will, as you say, why punish A & E and the snake?
They were innocent.

I note that you were rather selective in what you wish to debate.
That adds to my reasons against.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
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9/12/2011 5:21:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/9/2011 12:03:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/8/2011 4:49:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/5/2011 11:00:36 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/5/2011 8:28:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2011 9:35:47 AM, izbo10 wrote:
The reason for the story that seems most likely to me is that it was meant at the time to control the masses. It tells of punishment for eating the tree of knowledge. So it is the powerful telling the weak you will be punished by god for gaining too much knowledge.

No, it's a way of being fair about free-will: for complete free will to exist we must be free to rape and murder etc.. so God put all of the nasty stuff in ONE choice, the choice to disobey Him.

He ALSO warned, in the strongest possible terms, AGAINST it.

For complete free will to exist for a person, they must do something that is their will and not God's, to prove that they actually have free will.

That is what A & E did by choosing to do as scripture says and be as God.
God confirms that they did and then for some unknown reason, unless it was pure jealousy, therw a sissy fit and threw his own Word out the window by punishing the innocent for someone elses infraction.

Quite an immoral act.

Regards
DL

How was eating the friut THEIR will?

It was SATANS will, dressed up to look like their will!

Not their own will!

Not their idea, but they still freely chose it..

If it was Satan's will, as you say, why punish A & E and the snake?

Because they freely chose his idea. The snake IS satan.

They were innocent.

Innocent as in 'childlike, inexperienced' yes. Innocent as in 'completely lacking freewill to choose', no.

I note that you were rather selective in what you wish to debate.
That adds to my reasons against.

This sounds highly selective!
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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9/12/2011 8:55:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 5:21:50 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Not their idea, but they still freely chose it..


Thank God for that or we would have remained as dumb as cows.

Having the morals of a cow is good to you is it?


If it was Satan's will, as you say, why punish A & E and the snake?

Because they freely chose his idea. The snake IS satan.

So you think A & E chose freely while being tempted by one who God says can deceive the whole world.
B S.

If so, why have Satan there in the first place?
Was God just a poor parent by giving his children a loaded gun?


They were innocent.

Innocent as in 'childlike, inexperienced' yes. Innocent as in 'completely lacking freewill to choose', no.

Innocent speaks to guilt. Not to free will.

You have yet to show what is wrong with gaining knowledge.

I note that you were rather selective in what you wish to debate.
That adds to my reasons against.

This sounds highly selective!

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
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9/13/2011 4:40:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 8:55:32 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/12/2011 5:21:50 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Not their idea, but they still freely chose it..


Thank God for that or we would have remained as dumb as cows.

Having the morals of a cow is good to you is it?


An obvious strawman: you say 'cow' now I must defend 'cow'!

If it was Satan's will, as you say, why punish A & E and the snake?

Because they freely chose his idea. The snake IS satan.

So you think A & E chose freely while being tempted by one who God says can deceive the whole world.
B S.


Yes, I think that.. and in the absence of an argument against it I'm feeling pretty secure in that thought.

If so, why have Satan there in the first place?
Was God just a poor parent by giving his children a loaded gun?

How could there be free will without the choice of evil being offered to them?

How could it be offered by anyone other than the personification of evil?

They were innocent.

Innocent as in 'childlike, inexperienced' yes. Innocent as in 'completely lacking freewill to choose', no.

Innocent speaks to guilt. Not to free will.

I just shown you that there are at least two different meanings of the word 'innocent'. You chose to ignore this and stick to the one that conforms with the position you have adopted.

This is, of course, your prerogative.

It is not, however, debate.

You have yet to show what is wrong with gaining knowledge.

Why not go and rape a child?

Why not go and gun down as many people as you possibly can in the nearest mall?

Because you will certainly gain knowledge by doing so.

I note that you were rather selective in what you wish to debate.
That adds to my reasons against.

This sounds highly selective!

I wish you to acknowledge (to yourself, not to me) that you have set your heart against God and His Word and His people and that you have little or no interest in truth or debate but only in exulting yourself and enjoying yourself at others expense.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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9/14/2011 5:09:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 1:05:38 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Sure.

Regards
DL

A monosyllabic concession..

I'll take that.
The Cross.. the Cross.