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Free will and heaven.

izbo10
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9/2/2011 2:10:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Many,many theists when presented with the problem of evil will go to the old go too, free will defense. They don't see the problem here lets look at this. In their worldview, there is a place called heaven. Heaven is a eutopia environment you go to be with God and/or Jesus after you die. Now since this argument is made against and all powerful and all loving god we will look at it from that angle.

Firstly, if Heaven has free will, there is a problem. The problem comes in that the excuse becomes non-sequitur. Meaning that if heaven with free will is possible without the existence of evil. You cannot say that evil is the result of free will. Therefore how can you use free will as an excuse for evil?

Secondly, lets assume you are thinking, well, haha I've got him, heaven doesn't have free will. But alas, this leads to equal problems. If free will leads to a worse world then heaven and heaven is obviously better, why bother with free will to begin with. The all loving god has intentionally put us in a situation where half of the worlds children will fall victim to natural "evils."

I have already predicted your next move. As a Christian you have one last dance step in you. Well, this world with free will enables god to get us to heaven, it teaches us lessons so that we can reach heaven. But, once again this fails. An all powerful god should be able to create us knowing these lessons.

So, in conclusion, with a all powerful, all loving god who sends people to heaven, the free will defense clearly falls flat on its face, with attempts to limit gods power or non-sequitur argumentation.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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9/2/2011 2:22:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 2:18:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/2/2011 2:10:15 PM, izbo10 wrote:
I have already predicted your next move.

Nuh-uh.

http://people.nnu.edu...

will read and reply, but from the beginning it does not look like it will address this problem in the context of the problem of theodicy.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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9/2/2011 2:54:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 2:10:15 PM, izbo10 wrote:
Many,many theists when presented with the problem of evil will go to the old go too, free will defense. They don't see the problem here lets look at this. In their worldview, there is a place called heaven. Heaven is a eutopia environment you go to be with God and/or Jesus after you die. Now since this argument is made against and all powerful and all loving god we will look at it from that angle.

Firstly, if Heaven has free will, there is a problem. The problem comes in that the excuse becomes non-sequitur. Meaning that if heaven with free will is possible without the existence of evil. You cannot say that evil is the result of free will. Therefore how can you use free will as an excuse for evil?

Secondly, lets assume you are thinking, well, haha I've got him, heaven doesn't have free will. But alas, this leads to equal problems. If free will leads to a worse world then heaven and heaven is obviously better, why bother with free will to begin with. The all loving god has intentionally put us in a situation where half of the worlds children will fall victim to natural "evils."

I have already predicted your next move. As a Christian you have one last dance step in you. Well, this world with free will enables god to get us to heaven, it teaches us lessons so that we can reach heaven. But, once again this fails. An all powerful god should be able to create us knowing these lessons.

So, in conclusion, with a all powerful, all loving god who sends people to heaven, the free will defense clearly falls flat on its face, with attempts to limit gods power or non-sequitur argumentation.

Very well thought out. I agree with you completely.

Biblical heaven is not real, and if it was I wouldn't want to be there. A place where people don't cuss, fight, dress provocatively, etc.? If everything the bible says is a sin isn't in heaven, then why would I want to be there or even believe in the Biblical Heaven at all?

I wouldn't and I don't.

The whole biblical mentality doesn't make sense to me, nor is it desirable in my opinion.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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9/2/2011 7:06:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Add to this, the problem of emotion in heaven.

Ask a christian if one is able to feel sad, remorseful, or depressed in heaven. Most will answer, no, because heaven is a place of eternal happiness.

However, this presents a problem. For example, if you make it to heaven, but your wife ends up in hell, wouldnt you feel sad, in any way? If not, then you are no longer the same person as you were before.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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9/2/2011 8:59:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 2:10:15 PM, izbo10 wrote:
Many,many theists when presented with the problem of evil will go to the old go too, free will defense. They don't see the problem here lets look at this. In their worldview, there is a place called heaven. Heaven is a eutopia environment you go to be with God and/or Jesus after you die. Now since this argument is made against and all powerful and all loving god we will look at it from that angle.

Firstly, if Heaven has free will, there is a problem. The problem comes in that the excuse becomes non-sequitur. Meaning that if heaven with free will is possible without the existence of evil. You cannot say that evil is the result of free will. Therefore how can you use free will as an excuse for evil?

Secondly, lets assume you are thinking, well, haha I've got him, heaven doesn't have free will. But alas, this leads to equal problems. If free will leads to a worse world then heaven and heaven is obviously better, why bother with free will to begin with. The all loving god has intentionally put us in a situation where half of the worlds children will fall victim to natural "evils."

I have already predicted your next move. As a Christian you have one last dance step in you. Well, this world with free will enables god to get us to heaven, it teaches us lessons so that we can reach heaven. But, once again this fails. An all powerful god should be able to create us knowing these lessons.

So, in conclusion, with a all powerful, all loving god who sends people to heaven, the free will defense clearly falls flat on its face, with attempts to limit gods power or non-sequitur argumentation.

Ok i have one for you, yes I am a Christian, however i have a very unique view on heaven, and why we are here.

What if we all lived with God before we came to this earth, as spirits. That when 'God created man,' he created a vessel for us to come down in, and this is the whole point of earth. What if it is all a test like you mentioned, but not that God could of created us knowing we would fail or succeed, but that God is a just God, and that he wanted to show us for ourselves that we couldn't exceed so he gave us a test? That way if we were to not make it to heaven, we would know exactly why, we would know why, and we would know its because we couldn't handle the free will.

Of course we can't remember our existence prior to coming to this earth, because if we remember it, we would obviously do whatever it takes to pass the test, therefore not exercising our true free will.
The plan that has been set up, is perfect and flawless. Come to this earth to exercise our true free will, to separate those who will take an act of faith and believe in God, and do whatever it takes to exercise that free will for good NOT KNOWING whether or not God is true, and divide them from those who use there free will and say well there's no point in trying to be good because what if I die and there is no heaven? Its flawless, those who exercise free will on this earth to do good, will exercise it in heaven to do good. Those who express free will for evil will know why they are not in Heaven.

As for emotions in Heaven, I'm a firm believer there is emotions in heaven, but not emotions any of us could ever understand. If your wife goes to hell and you are in heaven, I'm sure you'll be sad, and I'm sure you'll feel disappointment, but overall you will be overwhelmed by the love of the savior, and by the power of the holy ghost. You will be living your life in eternal happiness and that's an emotion in itself we can never experience on earth.
izbo10
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9/2/2011 9:03:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 8:59:19 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 2:10:15 PM, izbo10 wrote:
Many,many theists when presented with the problem of evil will go to the old go too, free will defense. They don't see the problem here lets look at this. In their worldview, there is a place called heaven. Heaven is a eutopia environment you go to be with God and/or Jesus after you die. Now since this argument is made against and all powerful and all loving god we will look at it from that angle.

Firstly, if Heaven has free will, there is a problem. The problem comes in that the excuse becomes non-sequitur. Meaning that if heaven with free will is possible without the existence of evil. You cannot say that evil is the result of free will. Therefore how can you use free will as an excuse for evil?

Secondly, lets assume you are thinking, well, haha I've got him, heaven doesn't have free will. But alas, this leads to equal problems. If free will leads to a worse world then heaven and heaven is obviously better, why bother with free will to begin with. The all loving god has intentionally put us in a situation where half of the worlds children will fall victim to natural "evils."

I have already predicted your next move. As a Christian you have one last dance step in you. Well, this world with free will enables god to get us to heaven, it teaches us lessons so that we can reach heaven. But, once again this fails. An all powerful god should be able to create us knowing these lessons.

So, in conclusion, with a all powerful, all loving god who sends people to heaven, the free will defense clearly falls flat on its face, with attempts to limit gods power or non-sequitur argumentation.

Ok i have one for you, yes I am a Christian, however i have a very unique view on heaven, and why we are here.

What if we all lived with God before we came to this earth, as spirits. That when 'God created man,' he created a vessel for us to come down in, and this is the whole point of earth. What if it is all a test like you mentioned, but not that God could of created us knowing we would fail or succeed, but that God is a just God, and that he wanted to show us for ourselves that we couldn't exceed so he gave us a test? That way if we were to not make it to heaven, we would know exactly why, we would know why, and we would know its because we couldn't handle the free will.

Of course we can't remember our existence prior to coming to this earth, because if we remember it, we would obviously do whatever it takes to pass the test, therefore not exercising our true free will.
The plan that has been set up, is perfect and flawless. Come to this earth to exercise our true free will, to separate those who will take an act of faith and believe in God, and do whatever it takes to exercise that free will for good NOT KNOWING whether or not God is true, and divide them from those who use there free will and say well there's no point in trying to be good because what if I die and there is no heaven? Its flawless, those who exercise free will on this earth to do good, will exercise it in heaven to do good. Those who express free will for evil will know why they are not in Heaven.

As for emotions in Heaven, I'm a firm believer there is emotions in heaven, but not emotions any of us could ever understand. If your wife goes to hell and you are in heaven, I'm sure you'll be sad, and I'm sure you'll feel disappointment, but overall you will be overwhelmed by the love of the savior, and by the power of the holy ghost. You will be living your life in eternal happiness and that's an emotion in itself we can never experience on earth.

So, he had a perfect plan where 50% of every person he did this too will be a helpless child who indiscriminately suffers of disease, or is raped, or beaten, or killed by natural disasters. Thats really a perfect way of showing us that we deserve heaven. I call Shanagans.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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9/2/2011 9:35:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, he had a perfect plan where 50% of every person he did this too will be a helpless child who indiscriminately suffers of disease, or is raped, or beaten, or killed by natural disasters. That's really a perfect way of showing us that we deserve heaven. I call Shanagans.

Nope, that brings us to our next topic Heaven itself. It is a perfect plan, and its a flawless plan, there are actually 3 degrees of Heaven. The Celestial, Telestrial, and terrestrial. This are represented like the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. The Celestial Heaven is the Heaven all the Christians talk about, were you live forever with your Father in Heaven, and his son Jesus Christ, and you live in eternal happiness. however to get to this heaven, you have to express your free will in doing good to all men, in following the commandments, and when you make a mistake repent, nobody is perfect, but those who strive to correct the mistakes they made and always try and do better will show God you are worthy enough to enter into this heaven.

The second heaven is for all those who lived decent lives. Monks, who lived there lives trying to do what they believe to be right always, but never accepted Jesus Christ as there savior, an atheist maybe who doesn't believe in God but lives there live as best as they can to do the right thing always. You have to accept Jesus as your savior and you have to repent for the mistakes you've made before you enter here. (Once you die you will be given an oppertunity to accept Jesus Christ and to repent before you enter heaven)

And the third is what some Christians view as hell, but it isn't a firey burning place its a kingdom, but you live eternally with those who you are comfortable with, those who are like you. People in this kindom are the people who never repent for the mistakes that you've made. Maybe you do steel non stop, you know its wrong but you never bothered to change, you'll live in this kingdom of heaven forever with those who are just like you.
If you are familiar with the Bible and your reading this you might think that it contradicts the bibles discription of Hell, but in fact it doesnt. Before you can enter into the third degree of heaven you will have to suffer for the sings you commited because you have not repented therefore the atoment doesn't cover you. This is what the scriptures refer to as a firey burning place, you suffer temporaraly for the sins you've commited when justice is met you live forever in the 3rd kingdom of glory.

Christs desciples mention this in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42

Finally there is outter darkness, this is were Satan is, its a place were ONLY people who have seen the truth, who know of Gods authenticity, and still reject his teachings. Satan is here for that reason. I don't know for sure... but I would assume Judas the disciple who betrayed Jesus Christ, then killed himself shortly after because he couldn't handle the guilt is there too. It is very hard to get into this place you would have known with a surety that God is true, and still rejected him.

So yes he made a plan were everybody can live in eternity with people who exercise the same desictions for right and wrong that they do.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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9/2/2011 9:41:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 9:35:15 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
So, he had a perfect plan where 50% of every person he did this too will be a helpless child who indiscriminately suffers of disease, or is raped, or beaten, or killed by natural disasters. That's really a perfect way of showing us that we deserve heaven. I call Shanagans.

Nope, that brings us to our next topic Heaven itself. It is a perfect plan, and its a flawless plan, there are actually 3 degrees of Heaven. The Celestial, Telestrial, and terrestrial. This are represented like the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. The Celestial Heaven is the Heaven all the Christians talk about, were you live forever with your Father in Heaven, and his son Jesus Christ, and you live in eternal happiness. however to get to this heaven, you have to express your free will in doing good to all men, in following the commandments, and when you make a mistake repent, nobody is perfect, but those who strive to correct the mistakes they made and always try and do better will show God you are worthy enough to enter into this heaven.

The second heaven is for all those who lived decent lives. Monks, who lived there lives trying to do what they believe to be right always, but never accepted Jesus Christ as there savior, an atheist maybe who doesn't believe in God but lives there live as best as they can to do the right thing always. You have to accept Jesus as your savior and you have to repent for the mistakes you've made before you enter here. (Once you die you will be given an oppertunity to accept Jesus Christ and to repent before you enter heaven)

And the third is what some Christians view as hell, but it isn't a firey burning place its a kingdom, but you live eternally with those who you are comfortable with, those who are like you. People in this kindom are the people who never repent for the mistakes that you've made. Maybe you do steel non stop, you know its wrong but you never bothered to change, you'll live in this kingdom of heaven forever with those who are just like you.
If you are familiar with the Bible and your reading this you might think that it contradicts the bibles discription of Hell, but in fact it doesnt. Before you can enter into the third degree of heaven you will have to suffer for the sings you commited because you have not repented therefore the atoment doesn't cover you. This is what the scriptures refer to as a firey burning place, you suffer temporaraly for the sins you've commited when justice is met you live forever in the 3rd kingdom of glory.

Christs desciples mention this in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42

Finally there is outter darkness, this is were Satan is, its a place were ONLY people who have seen the truth, who know of Gods authenticity, and still reject his teachings. Satan is here for that reason. I don't know for sure... but I would assume Judas the disciple who betrayed Jesus Christ, then killed himself shortly after because he couldn't handle the guilt is there too. It is very hard to get into this place you would have known with a surety that God is true, and still rejected him.

So yes he made a plan were everybody can live in eternity with people who exercise the same desictions for right and wrong that they do.

Their is no reason whatsoever he could not have skipped the bs and created only people who would go to heaven and left out the earth part. It really is sad you would rather rationalize then think.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/2/2011 9:52:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 9:41:50 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 9:35:15 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
So, he had a perfect plan where 50% of every person he did this too will be a helpless child who indiscriminately suffers of disease, or is raped, or beaten, or killed by natural disasters. That's really a perfect way of showing us that we deserve heaven. I call Shanagans.

Nope, that brings us to our next topic Heaven itself. It is a perfect plan, and its a flawless plan, there are actually 3 degrees of Heaven. The Celestial, Telestrial, and terrestrial. This are represented like the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. The Celestial Heaven is the Heaven all the Christians talk about, were you live forever with your Father in Heaven, and his son Jesus Christ, and you live in eternal happiness. however to get to this heaven, you have to express your free will in doing good to all men, in following the commandments, and when you make a mistake repent, nobody is perfect, but those who strive to correct the mistakes they made and always try and do better will show God you are worthy enough to enter into this heaven.

The second heaven is for all those who lived decent lives. Monks, who lived there lives trying to do what they believe to be right always, but never accepted Jesus Christ as there savior, an atheist maybe who doesn't believe in God but lives there live as best as they can to do the right thing always. You have to accept Jesus as your savior and you have to repent for the mistakes you've made before you enter here. (Once you die you will be given an oppertunity to accept Jesus Christ and to repent before you enter heaven)

And the third is what some Christians view as hell, but it isn't a firey burning place its a kingdom, but you live eternally with those who you are comfortable with, those who are like you. People in this kindom are the people who never repent for the mistakes that you've made. Maybe you do steel non stop, you know its wrong but you never bothered to change, you'll live in this kingdom of heaven forever with those who are just like you.
If you are familiar with the Bible and your reading this you might think that it contradicts the bibles discription of Hell, but in fact it doesnt. Before you can enter into the third degree of heaven you will have to suffer for the sings you commited because you have not repented therefore the atoment doesn't cover you. This is what the scriptures refer to as a firey burning place, you suffer temporaraly for the sins you've commited when justice is met you live forever in the 3rd kingdom of glory.

Christs desciples mention this in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42

Finally there is outter darkness, this is were Satan is, its a place were ONLY people who have seen the truth, who know of Gods authenticity, and still reject his teachings. Satan is here for that reason. I don't know for sure... but I would assume Judas the disciple who betrayed Jesus Christ, then killed himself shortly after because he couldn't handle the guilt is there too. It is very hard to get into this place you would have known with a surety that God is true, and still rejected him.

So yes he made a plan were everybody can live in eternity with people who exercise the same desictions for right and wrong that they do.

Their is no reason whatsoever he could not have skipped the bs and created only people who would go to heaven and left out the earth part. It really is sad you would rather rationalize then think.

You just can't let anybody have anything, can you?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Moroni23
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9/2/2011 10:07:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Their is no reason whatsoever he could not have skipped the bs and created only people who would go to heaven and left out the earth part. It really is sad you would rather rationalize then think.

A person who is born with 10 million dollars will never apreciate it as much as somebody who's worked their entire life to earn it.
izbo10
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9/2/2011 10:17:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:07:51 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
Their is no reason whatsoever he could not have skipped the bs and created only people who would go to heaven and left out the earth part. It really is sad you would rather rationalize then think.

A person who is born with 10 million dollars will never apreciate it as much as somebody who's worked their entire life to earn it.

So you are saying god had to include things like torture, the holocaust, and all that type of stuff to make us better. What is he not capable of doing it without. Please tell me you are not limiting your gods powers.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
izbo10
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9/2/2011 10:22:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:17:33 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:07:51 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
Their is no reason whatsoever he could not have skipped the bs and created only people who would go to heaven and left out the earth part. It really is sad you would rather rationalize then think.

A person who is born with 10 million dollars will never apreciate it as much as somebody who's worked their entire life to earn it.

So you are saying god had to include things like torture, the holocaust, and all that type of stuff to make us better. What is he not capable of doing it without. Please tell me you are not limiting your gods powers.

Plus you are limiting us as to how we are now god created us in your view, he did not have to design us this way. So if we can't appreciate things as much without earning it maybe he should have designed us capable of doing so.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Man-is-good
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9/2/2011 10:22:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:19:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
The thread might be interesting since it at least poses some question about the nature of Christian theology (the 'free will' aspect of heaven)...

We will only hijack it unless if the thread degenerates into ad hom statements and insults made by the OP. Otherwise, the arguments made between the two are interesting...Let them proceed.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
izbo10
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9/2/2011 10:48:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

Great you can't even make your own point, you say go read this book. Its one thing to explain the point and say the book takes it into greater detail, so I would suggest reading it, but to sit and say read a book then come back is a weak debate tactic.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
popculturepooka
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9/2/2011 10:52:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:48:05 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

Great you can't even make your own point, you say go read this book. Its one thing to explain the point and say the book takes it into greater detail, so I would suggest reading it, but to sit and say read a book then come back is a weak debate tactic.

It's not a book; it's an article.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
izbo10
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9/2/2011 10:57:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:52:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:48:05 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

Great you can't even make your own point, you say go read this book. Its one thing to explain the point and say the book takes it into greater detail, so I would suggest reading it, but to sit and say read a book then come back is a weak debate tactic.

It's not a book; it's an article.

either way, the appropriate thing is to sum it up.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Man-is-good
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9/2/2011 11:01:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

I would like to read it...Unlike Izbo, I have tolerance for the views of my opposite side (theists).
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
izbo10
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9/2/2011 11:03:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:01:20 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

I would like to read it...Unlike Izbo, I have tolerance for the views of my opposite side (theists).

I have read more christian books then you have read books. Yes, I know you have almost made it through the little engine that could, but with your reading comprehension you probably think it is a non fiction book.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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9/2/2011 11:05:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If contradiction wanted anyone to actually read it he should have posted a link. If you are going to make a point with someone elses article you post the link and don't just say the title.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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9/2/2011 11:06:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:03:42 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:01:20 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

I would like to read it...Unlike Izbo, I have tolerance for the views of my opposite side (theists).

I have read more christian books then you have read books. Yes, I know you have almost made it through the little engine that could, but with your reading comprehension you probably think it is a non fiction book.

None of this is a reply or attack on the presumed tolerance of mine to theists. What you have is merely assert your intelligence and the false nature of their views...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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9/2/2011 11:12:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:06:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:03:42 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:01:20 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

I would like to read it...Unlike Izbo, I have tolerance for the views of my opposite side (theists).

I have read more christian books then you have read books. Yes, I know you have almost made it through the little engine that could, but with your reading comprehension you probably think it is a non fiction book.

None of this is a reply or attack on the presumed tolerance of mine to theists. You have merely assert your intelligence and the false nature of their views...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
izbo10
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9/2/2011 11:15:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:06:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:03:42 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:01:20 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

I would like to read it...Unlike Izbo, I have tolerance for the views of my opposite side (theists).

I have read more christian books then you have read books. Yes, I know you have almost made it through the little engine that could, but with your reading comprehension you probably think it is a non fiction book.

None of this is a reply or attack on the presumed tolerance of mine to theists. What you have is merely assert your intelligence and the false nature of their views...

You want me to go after your tolerance. Well let me ask you what would need to be done in the name of christianity for you to stop tolerating it? What would need to happen before we stop respecting people who join the group? I am dead serious.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/2/2011 11:16:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:05:51 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I've always wondered where Contradiction finds his sources. He cites a vast quantity of sources and I'm just curious.

You just have to read a lot.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Man-is-good
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9/2/2011 11:17:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:15:04 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:06:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:03:42 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:01:20 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:38:02 PM, Contradiction wrote:
See James F. Sennett "Is There Freedom in Heaven?" Faith and Philosophy 16 (1999): 69-82.

Get back to me when you've read it.

I would like to read it...Unlike Izbo, I have tolerance for the views of my opposite side (theists).

I have read more christian books then you have read books. Yes, I know you have almost made it through the little engine that could, but with your reading comprehension you probably think it is a non fiction book.

None of this is a reply or attack on the presumed tolerance of mine to theists. What you have is merely assert your intelligence and the false nature of their views...

You want me to go after your tolerance. Well let me ask you what would need to be done in the name of christianity for you to stop tolerating it? What would need to happen before we stop respecting people who join the group? I am dead serious.

If I perceive the doctrine as being entirely or generally wrong, then I will no longer tolerate it.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/2/2011 11:17:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:05:02 PM, izbo10 wrote:
If contradiction wanted anyone to actually read it he should have posted a link. If you are going to make a point with someone elses article you post the link and don't just say the title.

I posted my link to an article which also mentions the article that contradiction posted. Thoughts?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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9/2/2011 11:22:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 11:17:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/2/2011 11:05:02 PM, izbo10 wrote:
If contradiction wanted anyone to actually read it he should have posted a link. If you are going to make a point with someone elses article you post the link and don't just say the title.

I posted my link to an article which also mentions the article that contradiction posted. Thoughts?

I have not got to read it yet, will try to tomorrow and respond on it.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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9/2/2011 11:42:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/2/2011 10:22:08 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:17:33 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/2/2011 10:07:51 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
Their is no reason whatsoever he could not have skipped the bs and created only people who would go to heaven and left out the earth part. It really is sad you would rather rationalize then think.

A person who is born with 10 million dollars will never apreciate it as much as somebody who's worked their entire life to earn it.

So you are saying god had to include things like torture, the holocaust, and all that type of stuff to make us better. What is he not capable of doing it without. Please tell me you are not limiting your gods powers.

Plus you are limiting us as to how we are now god created us in your view, he did not have to design us this way. So if we can't appreciate things as much without earning it maybe he should have designed us capable of doing so.

I'm sorry man i don't understand this and i'm not being a dick.. can you just rephrase it please.