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Taking God out of the Constitution

Moroni23
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9/12/2011 2:05:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution. Some Atheists believe that allowing Theists to have a freedom of religion, is actually inflicting upon their freedoms. Obviously this isn't something that's going to be brought up for a long time, the Christian influence on this country is still relatively powerful, however, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

My opinion, the day we take God out of the Constitution is the day I lose all respect for this country. From the mouth of John Adams, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?
innomen
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9/12/2011 2:55:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

The Treaty of Tripoli was not signed by the founders.
Moroni23
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9/12/2011 3:46:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

Founding Fathers in general did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the Bible.

Of course not, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they founded this constitution, and this country off the belief and faith in a God.

Though George Washington specificly said 'The Government of the United States is not in any sence founded on the Christian religion.' He also said 'It is impossible to righty govern a nation without God, or the Bible.'

Once agian, John Adams "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson, "We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...."

Alexander Hamilton, "The voice of the people has been said to be the voice of God."

I don't need to go on sir, although the US might not have been founded on the Christian religion, is was without a doubt founded on the freedom of religion. There is a reason it is the FIRST Amendment.

You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Maybe I should read you the first amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I'm not sure where your getting your first amendment from, but this is stright from the Bill of Rights. Nowhere in the first amendment does it guarantee 'freedom FROM religion.' It does protect the goverment from inflicting upon your religious freedoms, but it never even came close to sugesting 'freedom FROM religion.'

The founding fathers founded this country off God and religious freedom, if anybody takes that away, it will be a sad day.
innomen
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9/12/2011 4:03:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Both atheists and theists have lost all context of religion at that time. Religion was a political power, not just an influence, but a real major power that had very little to do with the bible. This power was deemed as a corrupting, and overly controlling exertion upon the people and the governments, and the founders wanted nothing to do with that. However, as a guide in directing the people who were in office, and the country as a whole, it was apparent that the Christian God was a necessary component.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/12/2011 4:39:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why would atheists want to remove freedom of religion? They would be screwed.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Moroni23
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9/12/2011 6:23:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 4:03:40 AM, innomen wrote:
Both atheists and theists have lost all context of religion at that time. Religion was a political power, not just an influence, but a real major power that had very little to do with the bible. This power was deemed as a corrupting, and overly controlling exertion upon the people and the governments, and the founders wanted nothing to do with that. However, as a guide in directing the people who were in office, and the country as a whole, it was apparent that the Christian God was a necessary component.

Well I think that's exactly why the founding fathers put that into the constitution. To protect the people from the political power that is religion, and leave it for what it should be, an inspirational tool, not a political. Hence the 'congress shall make no law....prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' I believe very strongly the founding fathers new this was going to be a religious country, and they wanted that. I'm sure we know that many of them came over here for religious freedom.
Wnope
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9/12/2011 2:46:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 2:55:52 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

The Treaty of Tripoli was not signed by the founders.

Also, Treaty's written with the intent to placate pirates should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sad fact of the matter is that the Bill of Rights was intended only for use by the federal government. "Freedom of religion" only applied to Federal government attempting to indoctrinate states, not states indoctrinating citizens.

That means that, before the 14th amendment, there was absolutely nothing wrong with a state declaring a particular religion.
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/12/2011 3:33:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 2:05:16 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution. Some Atheists believe that allowing Theists to have a freedom of religion, is actually inflicting upon their freedoms. Obviously this isn't something that's going to be brought up for a long time, the Christian influence on this country is still relatively powerful, however, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Where did you hear this?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/12/2011 3:40:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 3:46:35 AM, Moroni23 wrote:

You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Maybe I should read you the first amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I'm not sure where your getting your first amendment from, but this is stright from the Bill of Rights. Nowhere in the first amendment does it guarantee 'freedom FROM religion.' It does protect the goverment from inflicting upon your religious freedoms, but it never even came close to sugesting 'freedom FROM religion.'

It's very clear - the establishment clause protects us FROM religion, while the free exercise clause gives us the right TO religion. The two are certainly not exclusive, as you may practice whatever religion you wish, so long as you don't infringe my right to practice or not practice my religion. That's a textbook definition of both freedoms - your freedom TO yours, and my freedom FROM yours.

The establishment clause is used in current jurisprudence not only to protect me from government interference on my practice of religion, but it also protects against benefits that you may receive that may be offensive to me. There is a plethora of cases involving the allocation of funds and tax cuts where a party is granted injunctive relief because another is receiving a religious benefit.

We can sit here and quote the founders all day long - there are significant quotes on either side of the issue, but the fact of the matter is that God is not mentioned anywhere in the constitution. It is abundantly clear that the framers were influenced by Enlightenment philosophy and English common law, not the Bible or canonical law.

God cannot be taken out of the constitution because he was never there.
tkubok
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9/12/2011 9:44:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 3:46:35 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

Founding Fathers in general did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the Bible.

Of course not, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they founded this constitution, and this country off the belief and faith in a God.

Though George Washington specificly said 'The Government of the United States is not in any sence founded on the Christian religion.' He also said 'It is impossible to righty govern a nation without God, or the Bible.'

Once agian, John Adams "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson, "We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...."

Alexander Hamilton, "The voice of the people has been said to be the voice of God."

I don't need to go on sir, although the US might not have been founded on the Christian religion, is was without a doubt founded on the freedom of religion. There is a reason it is the FIRST Amendment.


You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Maybe I should read you the first amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I'm not sure where your getting your first amendment from, but this is stright from the Bill of Rights. Nowhere in the first amendment does it guarantee 'freedom FROM religion.' It does protect the goverment from inflicting upon your religious freedoms, but it never even came close to sugesting 'freedom FROM religion.'

The founding fathers founded this country off God and religious freedom, if anybody takes that away, it will be a sad day.

You seriously want to start quoting the founding fathers? Great, here are some others.

Thomas Jefferson:

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."

"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."

Benjamin Franklin:

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

So, what were you saying about how the USA was founded on God?
kohai
Posts: 380
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9/12/2011 10:11:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 2:05:16 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution. Some Atheists believe that allowing Theists to have a freedom of religion, is actually inflicting upon their freedoms. Obviously this isn't something that's going to be brought up for a long time, the Christian influence on this country is still relatively powerful, however, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

My opinion, the day we take God out of the Constitution is the day I lose all respect for this country. From the mouth of John Adams, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Do you realize god isn't even in our constitution???? Just protects religious freedom.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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9/12/2011 10:57:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 10:11:15 PM, kohai wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:05:16 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution. Some Atheists believe that allowing Theists to have a freedom of religion, is actually inflicting upon their freedoms. Obviously this isn't something that's going to be brought up for a long time, the Christian influence on this country is still relatively powerful, however, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

My opinion, the day we take God out of the Constitution is the day I lose all respect for this country. From the mouth of John Adams, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Do you realize god isn't even in our constitution???? Just protects religious freedom.

Its just the name of a title people.... dang lol. Its refering to talking religious freedom out of the constitution. I quote myself... "I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution."
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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9/12/2011 11:28:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 9:44:14 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 9/12/2011 3:46:35 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

You seriously want to start quoting the founding fathers? Great, here are some others.

Thomas Jefferson:

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."

"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."

Benjamin Franklin:

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

So, what were you saying about how the USA was founded on God?

So are you implying that the founding fathers were atheist? I find this funny. Every quote I mentioned was a founding fathers specifically speaking about RELIGION, and THE GOVERMENT. Every single quote you stated had nothing at all to do with the government other than Thomas Jefferson's quote on the Common Law, common law being part of our legal system, this quote has no weight. Of course Christianity isn't going to be part of the common law, the first amendment protects this. 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.'

So what I was saying about the USA being founded on God...
Open up a history book. Pilgrims came to the new world seeking religious freedom. The first amendment protects religious freedom. The Declaration of Independence (that's a document that declared our Independence from British rule) states in the very first paragraph 'natures GOD entitled them to.' Second paragraph states 'they are endowed by their creator'. The last paragraph states a firm protection on 'divine providence'.

Once again, form the mouths of the founding fathers, and I'm not going to quote how a certain founding father doesn't like churches, or how a certain founding father believes you are saved by works, and not by faith, I'm going to quote founding fathers views on religion and government.

George Washington, "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God, or the Bible."

Once again, John Adams "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson, "We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...."

Alexander Hamilton, "The voice of the people has been said to be the voice of God."

I can't believe some of you actually believe the USA was not founded on God, or greatly influence by a God (or creator). The Declaration or Independence was a document specifically explaining the set up of our Government, they have no reason to mention God anywhere in it. From the mouths of the founding fathers themselves, the USA was founded on God, if you open a history book, it will tell you, the USA was founded on God or seeking religious freedom, and if you look at the official documents that have the countries personality in it (such as the Declaration of Independence), you can see that the USA was founded on God, or religious freedom, the Constitution protects religious freedom from the government infringing upon those rights.
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/13/2011 12:15:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is quite a bit of difference between the first colonists and the United States, which came much later.

Of course their is going to be some religious influence in the language of a people who come from a culture that was shaped by a thousand years or more of Christianity.

Now that said, the founding fathers were mixed when it came to religion. I do believe that there were actually more Christians than Deists, though the more famous ones tended to be me more secular minded.

Either way, the United States was meant from the very beginning to be RELIGIOUSLY NEUTRAL.

This, if I am gathering correctly, we all agree on here, right?

The founders saw what state endorsed religion did in Europe, and wanted to avoid that. Religious(or even non-religious) freedom is very important.

Now that said, I stand by my assertion that regardless of what the founding father's believed, religious neutrality is the best route to take.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/13/2011 3:25:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 2:46:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:55:52 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

The Treaty of Tripoli was not signed by the founders.

Also, Treaty's written with the intent to placate pirates should be taken with a grain of salt.

It was not written to placate pirates, the guns of the US navy did that.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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9/13/2011 3:31:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 3:25:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:46:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:55:52 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

The Treaty of Tripoli was not signed by the founders.

Also, Treaty's written with the intent to placate pirates should be taken with a grain of salt.

It was not written to placate pirates, the guns of the US navy did that.

What navy?
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/13/2011 3:34:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 11:28:39 PM, Moroni23 wrote:

So are you implying that the founding fathers were atheist? I find this funny.

Doesn't seem to me that anyone ever said anything *close* to that at all...

So what I was saying about the USA being founded on God...
Open up a history book. Pilgrims came to the new world seeking religious freedom.

Yes, of course, but surely you aren't contending that they came here with the intent of replicating a religious government like the one they just left in England? You can't be telling us, say, that they wanted to start a country founded on God, when the intermix of politics and God was precisely the reason they just left England??

The first amendment protects religious freedom. The Declaration of Independence (that's a document that declared our Independence from British rule) states in the very first paragraph 'natures GOD entitled them to.'

Wow - that was some skillful quote farming there. Let's see the whole clause:

"...to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them"

Yes it says the laws of God, but it also says AND the laws of nature. The writers of the Declaration were inspired by enlightenment philosophy, and this duality of sourcing could certainly be argued to be a nod to the emerging enlightenment idea that not all things necessarily come from God. In any event, it's of little importance where the rights come from - the Declaration asserts that we have the rights... it's not an argument about where the rights come from.

Second paragraph states 'they are endowed by their creator'. The last paragraph states a firm protection on 'divine providence'.

Which, of course, fits far better with the idea that the founders were Deists, and not necessarily Christians. There is also certainly something to be said for the idea that much of the language is essentially "puffing" - that's just how people wrote back then. The Declaration in no way conveys the message that the US is breaking away from England in order to start a nation founded on Christian principles.

George Washington, "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God, or the Bible."

Dubious at best - the man was a non-practicing Episcopal. He didn't even follow his wife to Church, and there is considerable doubt that this quote is actually anything he said (http://fakehistory.wordpress.com...).

Once again, John Adams "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Adams: "Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"

Adams: ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

Adams: "The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

Thomas Jefferson, "We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...."

Jefferson: "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot..."

Jefferson: "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

Jefferson: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Alexander Hamilton, "The voice of the people has been said to be the voice of God."

Hamilton was probably the most religious, or at least the one most actively involved in utilizing the social structure religion created.

I can't believe some of you actually believe the USA was not founded on God, or greatly influence by a God (or creator).

Nobody has said that it was not influenced by religion. But it is very clear that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

The Declaration or Independence was a document specifically explaining the set up of our Government, they have no reason to mention God anywhere in it.

Um... no? Let me introduce you to Articles I, II, and III of the Constitution.

From the mouths of the founding fathers themselves, the USA was founded on God, if you open a history book, it will tell you, the USA was founded on God or seeking religious freedom, and if you look at the official documents that have the countries personality in it (such as the Declaration of Independence), you can see that the USA was founded on God, or religious freedom, the Constitution protects religious freedom from the government infringing upon those rights.

You want to know what the nation was founded on? Look at the Declaration of Independence. There are 28 Injuries ("candid facts") presented, and not a single one mentions religion.

Ok... maybe that's not enough evidence. Let's look at the Articles of Confederation. The only mention of religion is: "The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense... binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever." The Articles of Confederation do not even mention freedom of religious expression.

Just for historical timeline... the Constitution was adopted in 1787. And 9 years later, we have...

The Treaty of Tripoli.... which some have stated wasn't signed by the Founding Fathers. No... the treaty was ordered to be sought out by one George Washington, sitting president. The English version clearly states: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

The treaty was recieved (after a few years of traveling back and forth) by our second president, one John Adams (whose VP happened to be one Thomas Jefferson), who issued a statement that said "...having seen and considered the said Treaty do... accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof."

Adams then sent it to the Senate for ratification, where it was read aloud, including the provision above... and unanimously affirmed (including a sitting senator who also signed the Constitution).

**************************************************************

So I'm very curious to know where people get the idea that the US was founded on Christianity, when it is nowhere mentioned in the founding documents, and there is a treaty within the first 20 years of the nation's history that expressly disavows any association with the Christian religion....

It just boggles my mind.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/13/2011 3:40:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 3:31:15 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/13/2011 3:25:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:46:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:55:52 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:53:42 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
You do realize that the First Amendment has guarantees concerning freedom OF religion and freedom FROM?

Also, the founding fathers were mostly deists, generally did not view the Constitution as a document that was supposed to be read in conjunction with the bible... and on top of that, the Treaty of Tripoli expressly states that the US is in no way founded on the Christian religion?

The Treaty of Tripoli was not signed by the founders.

Also, Treaty's written with the intent to placate pirates should be taken with a grain of salt.

It was not written to placate pirates, the guns of the US navy did that.

What navy?

Sorry I thought the barbary war occured before said treaty, it was after the treaty that America went to war.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/13/2011 3:42:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
But more on topic...

At 9/12/2011 2:05:16 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution. Some Atheists believe that allowing Theists to have a freedom of religion, is actually inflicting upon their freedoms...

Only in the sense that the two interact... i.e. if you get a tax break to send your kid to a religious school, and this increases my tax burden, then hell yes, it's infringing upon my freedom.

I find it highly unlikely that the First Amendment will ever be Amended... Establishment/Exercise jurisprudence may be whittled away, but it won't be the atheist's doing - it's just the natural progress of society. Someday Christianity will go the way of the rest of mythology and nobody will bother with it anymore.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/13/2011 4:03:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"I don't think it was right that the Constitution permitted all religions to flourish and be equal in America."
-- Michael Tsarion (Conspiracy researcher)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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9/13/2011 10:13:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm continually baffled by American's worship of the constitution. It's like your second bible, except even the atheists believe in it.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/13/2011 11:55:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 10:13:52 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm continually baffled by American's worship of the constitution. It's like your second bible, except even the atheists believe in it.

Last year while in Nicaragua i was talking politics with a local merchant and she was explaining what Daniel Ortega was doing with the up coming election. He implemented voting rules where you have to apply for and pay for a ballot. It cost about $60 which is a months worth of wages for the average Nicaraguan. He's been making moves so that citizens living outside the country cannot vote and those who are Sandinista only may vote. I asked her about the Nicaraguan constitution and she called it toilet paper. It's just something that they have, and the president pays no attention to it at all.

Yes we do value the constitution, but some more than others.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/13/2011 1:39:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 10:13:52 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm continually baffled by American's worship of the constitution. It's like your second bible, except even the atheists believe in it.

it's good to have laws about what laws you can have.

Also.. Laws about what laws you can have are relevant to a lot of conversations about laws... And laws generally are pretty important stuff.. so it comes up a good bit.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/13/2011 2:29:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:03:57 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"I don't think it was right that the Constitution permitted all religions to flourish and be equal in America."
-- Michael Tsarion (Conspiracy researcher)

Well, your conspiracy researcher is a moron. Unsurprisingly.

The bill of rights was a tack-on pushed through the first congress as an "easy win" for the anti-federalists. It was NOT meant to suppress the rights of states.

The bill was a political tactic the federalists used to out-maneuver the anti-federalists. It promised the federal government would not interfere with how states run themselves in certain areas.

NONE of the bill of rights applied to states before the Civil War. When the fourteenth amendment passed, THEN the bill of rights applied to states (though only when directly incorporated via a lawsuit).
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/13/2011 2:31:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 10:13:52 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm continually baffled by American's worship of the constitution. It's like your second bible, except even the atheists believe in it.

American's are just as baffled by European worship of royalty.

We understand movie stars and fame for the sake of fame, but Americans find royalty quite ridiculous.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/13/2011 4:28:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:29:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/13/2011 4:03:57 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"I don't think it was right that the Constitution permitted all religions to flourish and be equal in America."
-- Michael Tsarion (Conspiracy researcher)

Well, your conspiracy researcher is a moron. Unsurprisingly.

The bill of rights was a tack-on pushed through the first congress as an "easy win" for the anti-federalists. It was NOT meant to suppress the rights of states.

The bill was a political tactic the federalists used to out-maneuver the anti-federalists. It promised the federal government would not interfere with how states run themselves in certain areas.

NONE of the bill of rights applied to states before the Civil War. When the fourteenth amendment passed, THEN the bill of rights applied to states (though only when directly incorporated via a lawsuit).

First of all, none of what you said refutes his quote. You gave a background of the Bill of Rights. Great, but that doesn't mean Tsarion can't disagree with a clause in the Bill of Rights.

Secondly, Tsarion probably knows more about the Constitution than you and yet he's from Ireland. He's the one who made the documentary "The Constitution Con." It's asinine to call him a moron, the man is literally a walking library, I have doubts you would even get near defeating him in a one-on-one debate.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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9/13/2011 4:34:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 10:57:14 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 9/12/2011 10:11:15 PM, kohai wrote:
At 9/12/2011 2:05:16 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution. Some Atheists believe that allowing Theists to have a freedom of religion, is actually inflicting upon their freedoms. Obviously this isn't something that's going to be brought up for a long time, the Christian influence on this country is still relatively powerful, however, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

My opinion, the day we take God out of the Constitution is the day I lose all respect for this country. From the mouth of John Adams, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Do you realize god isn't even in our constitution???? Just protects religious freedom.

Its just the name of a title people.... dang lol. Its refering to talking religious freedom out of the constitution. I quote myself... "I heard rumors today that some Atheists are planning to take the freedom of religion out of the constitution."

How would you think it justified in taking away someone's freedom of spiritual beliefs?
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/13/2011 4:38:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:31:26 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/13/2011 10:13:52 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm continually baffled by American's worship of the constitution. It's like your second bible, except even the atheists believe in it.

American's are just as baffled by European worship of royalty.

We understand movie stars and fame for the sake of fame, but Americans find royalty quite ridiculous.

Thats the funny thing, you don't as a race find royalty ridiculous. You guys love the Royals. The cultural mindset of the American's is naturally wired to be Monarchial.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/13/2011 4:46:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Restricting theism is fascism. Restricting atheism is fascism. Plain and simple.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus