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Aren't Atheists and Christians ...

Volkov
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4/29/2009 7:02:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Its not arrogance so much as it is belief or dogma.

Christians believe in a God because their scriptures tell them one exists. They also claim the 'feel' His presence, et cetera.

Atheists don't believe in a God because they do not see how one can be verified, or because they don't see one simply fitting in with the equation, especially considering the fact that you can theorize matter, energy and our origins without a God. Due to the fact that the opposition (Christians) verify their God through scripture, atheists feel that since their evidence disproves what is said in those scriptures, there is no God.
Other people, like myself, have simply never felt the need for the existence, or even the question, of God. This is of course hard to explain and very hard to prove, but I call it 'gut-feeling atheism'.

So as I was saying, its not a question of 'arrogance', but just of belief. It is two competing beliefs against each other, though it is easily possible for people to become arrogant during these debates. I think its more a matter of what your background is, and how sure you are of your beliefs. To me it makes more sense that a studied atheist will be less arrogant and more open to listening. Compared to a person who has rooted themselves in religious belief, a belief that teaches them they are above all others who do not accept their ways... you can see where I am going with this.
I'm not saying that all Christian theorists are like this either, just those that refuse to even see a modicum of evidence from the opposition.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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4/29/2009 7:31:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thanks Volkov for the very well-balanced and intelligent response.

I was using the word arrogant to be intentionally provocative really and certainly don't believe that all atheists or all Christians are actually arrogant people.

I don't believe in a specific God myself and like you I have never really felt the need for one. However I do not dismiss the possibility outright that a higher intelligence exists.

But my understanding of Atheism is that it is a belief system that says there is no god or creator rather than just disproving specific Gods.

My point was just that no one can really claim to know for certain either way, so they are perhaps being over-confident in stating there is or isn't any kind of god/creator/supreme being/entity.

I call myself Agnostic (literally 'unknowing') because I like to think I am humble enough to accept that I can never know certain things. You can call it sitting on the fence, but I like to see evidence for my beliefs. (Or maybe I'm just too arrogant to accept the truth!)

Peace.
Volkov
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4/29/2009 7:51:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thank you for that compliment feverish and I wish to return it in kind, as well as thank you for this topic.

I believe one of the reasons you will find arrogance on both sides of the debate is because of how each belief system is structured.
Though this is not true in most cases, atheists believe that Christians will base their entire debate off of the Bible. Because atheism has its beliefs rooted in the fact that their evidence contradicts things said in the Bible, they sort of get a haughty air among them, almost as if they're offended that a debate is structured around a document that has been proven false, contradictory, etc.
That fact I believe also extends into the general beliefs of an atheist. They see the only argument for God coming from the Christians, and as I explained above, atheists see their evidence as faulty and unusable. Being in opposition to your foe's beliefs actually reinforce your own, at least in your own mind. This just another explanation for perceived arrogance by atheists on the question of God.

The same goes for Christians, though as an atheist myself, I am biased when I say that I believe they rely much more on faith in their doctrines than atheists will. They see the evidence provided by atheists as just 'speculation' and 'theory', and most likely these people have been brought up to believe in the scriptures, or have had scriptures relate to their life in a significant way (just as any book can), and are dogmatic about their beliefs. It relies somewhat on the reinforcement of being in opposition to others, but I believe it relies much more on pure, unwavering belief.
As such, you will get perceived arrogance from them because they will just assume they are right.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/29/2009 8:16:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Of course I'm arrogant. In lots of respects. Disproving most definitions of God I seem to encounter is only one such manifestation :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
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4/29/2009 8:23:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 8:16:37 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Of course I'm arrogant. In lots of respects. Disproving most definitions of God I seem to encounter is only one such manifestation :)

Isn't that considered more of a 'hobby'?
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/29/2009 8:28:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
A hobby of arrogant people, yeah. ^_^
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/29/2009 9:28:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 6:41:23 AM, feverish wrote:
... both being just a teeny bit arrogant?

How can you really know whether there is a god one way or another?

Arrogance, like beauty , is in the eye of the beholder.
" I am THE WAY, THE Truth and THE Life." Could be contrued as being arrogant..
But only if He is not who He says He is.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/29/2009 9:58:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nope. Arrogance is arrogance even if it's accurate. Incidentally, this is why "arrogant" isn't much of an indictment.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
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4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 9:58:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Nope. Arrogance is arrogance even if it's accurate. Incidentally, this is why "arrogant" isn't much of an indictment.

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.. it's always an accusation which means it's an opinion.
For example, many people absolutely loathed Muhammad Ali (many for racial reasons) and so charged him with arrogance.. those who loved him and admired his natural genius saw not arrogance, but self confidence and psychological domination.
The Cross.. the Cross.
feverish
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4/29/2009 1:57:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.

Well Ragnar just did, above (at least he's honest) and I'm willing to accept that I may behave arrogantly on occasion, I think we all do.
I am a huge admirer of Mohammed Ali but would be the first to admit that he could be extremely arrogant at times.

As I said before I was using the term to be intentionally provocative, what I really mean in this case is that a 100% conviction that there either is or is not a god is a rather conceited opinion to have, as it is pretty much impossible to be sure.

I mean no offense to anyone's beliefs, just trying to promote an open-minded attitude.
crackofdawn_Jr
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4/29/2009 2:13:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 9:28:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/29/2009 6:41:23 AM, feverish wrote:
... both being just a teeny bit arrogant?

How can you really know whether there is a god one way or another?

Arrogance, like beauty , is in the eye of the beholder.
" I am THE WAY, THE Truth and THE Life." Could be contrued as being arrogant..
But only if He is not who He says He is.

I don't have my Bible with me, so I can't quote it directly, but check out the earlier part of matthew. Jesus says something about first getting the log out of one's own eye before getting the speck out of a friend's eye.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Volkov
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4/29/2009 2:36:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 2:13:07 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
I don't have my Bible with me, so I can't quote it directly, but check out the earlier part of matthew. Jesus says something about first getting the log out of one's own eye before getting the speck out of a friend's eye.

Reminds me of "please secure your mask before you secure your childs" from the airplane safety manuals.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/29/2009 2:50:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 1:57:46 PM, feverish wrote:
At 4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.

Well Ragnar just did, above (at least he's honest) and I'm willing to accept that I may behave arrogantly on occasion, I think we all do.
I am a huge admirer of Mohammed Ali but would be the first to admit that he could be extremely arrogant at times.

As I said before I was using the term to be intentionally provocative, what I really mean in this case is that a 100% conviction that there either is or is not a god is a rather conceited opinion to have, as it is pretty much impossible to be sure.

I mean no offense to anyone's beliefs, just trying to promote an open-minded attitude.

But all of Alis ranting etc before the fight never appeared arrogant after he delivered on his promise. (to my mind)
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/29/2009 4:07:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/29/2009 9:58:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Nope. Arrogance is arrogance even if it's accurate. Incidentally, this is why "arrogant" isn't much of an indictment.

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.

Not only did I just do so above, I do so EAGERLY. I STRIVE to be moar arrogant :).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Nail_Bat
Posts: 132
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4/29/2009 4:58:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's only arrogance when you believe that people who hold the opposite position are inferior.

Taking something to be true without proof isn't a sign of arrogance. Proof isn't as rock-solid a concept as many would like it to be anyway.
Kleptin
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4/29/2009 8:57:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 4:58:24 PM, Nail_Bat wrote:
It's only arrogance when you believe that people who hold the opposite position are inferior.

I'd like to offer a revision of that.

"It's only arrogance when you believe that people who hold the opposite position are inferior purely because they hold an opposite position"
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/29/2009 11:38:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 4:07:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/29/2009 9:58:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Nope. Arrogance is arrogance even if it's accurate. Incidentally, this is why "arrogant" isn't much of an indictment.

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.

Not only did I just do so above, I do so EAGERLY. I STRIVE to be moar arrogant :).

False bravado arrogance aint..

Arrogance is perception based on a negative judgement.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/30/2009 11:37:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I myself am an agnostic, for the same reason OP stated. I think that neither atheists nor christians can make any legitimate claim besides "It cannot be proven". However, I'm still pretty arrogant in having this position :O I think arrogance just comes with belief in general.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/30/2009 12:25:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/30/2009 11:37:37 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I think arrogance just comes with belief in general.

Of course, because if you're not arrogant enough then your belief obviously isn't strong enough.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/30/2009 1:03:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/30/2009 12:25:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/30/2009 11:37:37 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I think arrogance just comes with belief in general.

Of course, because if you're not arrogant enough then your belief obviously isn't strong enough.

So then why are Atheists, who do not believe, the most arrogant and conceited of all?
Answer that and stay fashionable.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/30/2009 1:09:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/30/2009 12:25:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/30/2009 11:37:37 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I think arrogance just comes with belief in general.

Of course, because if you're not arrogant enough then your belief obviously isn't strong enough.

Haha, well said :D too often are beliefs supported with fervor instead of logic.

"Volume + Verbosity = Veracity" XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
threelittlebirds
Posts: 142
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5/1/2009 5:06:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Atheism basically means godless. Just because you don't believe in or worship a god doesn't mean that you automatically claim to know for sure that there is no god.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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5/1/2009 5:34:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 6:41:23 AM, feverish wrote:
... both being just a teeny bit arrogant?

How can you really know whether there is a god one way or another?

Read the Bible.
That's how we know.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/1/2009 6:38:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/1/2009 5:34:27 AM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
At 4/29/2009 6:41:23 AM, feverish wrote:
... both being just a teeny bit arrogant?

How can you really know whether there is a god one way or another?

Read the Bible.
That's how we know.

Now why didn't I think of that answer..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/1/2009 8:35:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 11:38:39 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/29/2009 4:07:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/29/2009 9:58:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Nope. Arrogance is arrogance even if it's accurate. Incidentally, this is why "arrogant" isn't much of an indictment.

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.

Not only did I just do so above, I do so EAGERLY. I STRIVE to be moar arrogant :).

False bravado arrogance aint..

Arrogance is perception based on a negative judgement.

How do you become more arrogant when arrogance is perception?

Improve upon what's being perceived, duh.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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5/1/2009 8:37:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/1/2009 5:34:27 AM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
At 4/29/2009 6:41:23 AM, feverish wrote:
... both being just a teeny bit arrogant?

How can you really know whether there is a god one way or another?

Read the Bible.
That's how we know.

I've read the Bible e-nuff, I still don't know.
Alotta_Fagina
Posts: 31
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5/1/2009 10:39:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Unmoved mover theory with slight variations.
Currently hacking everyone's accounts and creating dull forum topics along with using excessive e's and changing account avatars. Sign up to get yours hacked here:
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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5/1/2009 11:04:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 1:57:46 PM, feverish wrote:
At 4/29/2009 1:34:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

But no one ever admits to being arrogant.

Well Ragnar just did, above (at least he's honest) and I'm willing to accept that I may behave arrogantly on occasion, I think we all do.
I am a huge admirer of Mohammed Ali but would be the first to admit that he could be extremely arrogant at times.

As I said before I was using the term to be intentionally provocative, what I really mean in this case is that a 100% conviction that there either is or is not a god is a rather conceited opinion to have, as it is pretty much impossible to be sure.

I mean no offense to anyone's beliefs, just trying to promote an open-minded attitude.

Anyway, on topic: Whoever said that you had to fully believe in something 100% to legitimize it as a belief? When did the majority of atheists ever say this? Such an intellectually sucking belief would be akin to epistemological skepticism and solipsism. If you stand on the fence with respect to anything empirical, than all you can trust is your thoughts are arguably logic/math.
TheSkeptic
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5/2/2009 12:04:13 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Anyway, on topic: Whoever said that you had to fully believe in something 100% to legitimize it as a belief? When did the majority of atheists ever say this? Such an intellectually sucking belief would be akin to epistemological skepticism and solipsism. If you stand on the fence with respect to anything empirical, than all you can trust is your thoughts are arguably logic/math.

Oops, didn't mean to say "anyway, on topic".

*sheepish grin*