Total Posts:63|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Problem of Evil explained

wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/19/2011 10:23:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've had a question about the problem of evil, so I'll explain it here.

--- gr33k wrote: ---
:Christianity is the only religion to teach total depravity.

Total depravity is the utter inability of a human being to be saved. No benevolent act will ever be great enough to blot out the sin and corruption that we take on by simply breathing the air of this world. It follows from this that no "punishment" is undeserved, which removes the POE. Religions that teach children are born naturally pure (i.e. Islam) can easily be debunked via the problem of Evil. To my knoweledge Christianity is the only religion that adequately answers the fundamental question of why bad things happen to "good" people.

---end of quotation---

The PoE (problem of evil) is a paradox or contradiction. Imagine a god who didn't want evil to exist, who had the ability to prevent or eliminate evil, and who knew all about evil and its causes and cures. If a god like that existed, then there would be no evil.

It is only if someone believes in such a god, and also believes in evil, that there is a problem.

The tri-omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) cannot logically coexist with evil.

Weaker gods, less-knowing gods, not-so-benevolent gods, they don't have a problem with evil. For them, coexistence with evil is no contradiction.

Jews don't necessarily believe god is all that good. A lot of them don't believe in him at all. And I don't know enough about Islam to have an opinion on whether the existence of evil is a problem for them. And a lot of Christians, too, don't believe that god is omnipotent, or don't believe he is omniscient, or don't believe he's really opposed to evil, or don't believe that evil exists.

But many Christians, those that I think of as regular Christians, or "standard normal Christians," do hold conflicting beliefs about evil. They maintain that god is powerful enough to have prevented evil easily, that he knows everything (including the future), and that he really really strongly wants ("omni" wants) there to be no evil---and they believe that evil exists.

That's a problem. That's a contradiction. We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong.

So it makes no sense to say that only Christianity explains the problem of evil.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 5:11:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 10:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
I've had a question about the problem of evil, so I'll explain it here.

--- gr33k wrote: ---
:Christianity is the only religion to teach total depravity.

Total depravity is the utter inability of a human being to be saved. No benevolent act will ever be great enough to blot out the sin and corruption that we take on by simply breathing the air of this world. It follows from this that no "punishment" is undeserved, which removes the POE. Religions that teach children are born naturally pure (i.e. Islam) can easily be debunked via the problem of Evil. To my knoweledge Christianity is the only religion that adequately answers the fundamental question of why bad things happen to "good" people.

---end of quotation---

The PoE (problem of evil) is a paradox or contradiction. Imagine a god who didn't want evil to exist, who had the ability to prevent or eliminate evil, and who knew all about evil and its causes and cures. If a god like that existed, then there would be no evil.

It is only if someone believes in such a god, and also believes in evil, that there is a problem.

The tri-omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) cannot logically coexist with evil.

Weaker gods, less-knowing gods, not-so-benevolent gods, they don't have a problem with evil. For them, coexistence with evil is no contradiction.

Jews don't necessarily believe god is all that good. A lot of them don't believe in him at all. And I don't know enough about Islam to have an opinion on whether the existence of evil is a problem for them. And a lot of Christians, too, don't believe that god is omnipotent, or don't believe he is omniscient, or don't believe he's really opposed to evil, or don't believe that evil exists.

But many Christians, those that I think of as regular Christians, or "standard normal Christians," do hold conflicting beliefs about evil. They maintain that god is powerful enough to have prevented evil easily, that he knows everything (including the future), and that he really really strongly wants ("omni" wants) there to be no evil---and they believe that evil exists.

That's a problem. That's a contradiction. We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong.

So it makes no sense to say that only Christianity explains the problem of evil.

If God HAS certain attributes (love, mercy, justice etc) then the opposite of those attributes must exist in order for them to exist, if only in the mind of God.

To withhold this information or the choice would to have been guillty of precisely the lie satan used in the garden; the God is withholding valuable information.. to have made evil freely available would have been just as irresponsible..

So, God being God, He did the only good thing to do, He made it available with the strongest possible warning; " You'll SURELY die."

Light cannot be darkness, God cannot be what He is not.. the omni words are SELF refuting, it is the words themselves that do not hold up to scrutiny, not God or Christianity.

"We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong."

Objective Reality, discovered at last!
The Cross.. the Cross.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 12:30:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 10:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
I've had a question about the problem of evil, so I'll explain it here.

--- gr33k wrote: ---
:Christianity is the only religion to teach total depravity.

Total depravity is the utter inability of a human being to be saved. No benevolent act will ever be great enough to blot out the sin and corruption that we take on by simply breathing the air of this world. It follows from this that no "punishment" is undeserved, which removes the POE. Religions that teach children are born naturally pure (i.e. Islam) can easily be debunked via the problem of Evil. To my knoweledge Christianity is the only religion that adequately answers the fundamental question of why bad things happen to "good" people.

---end of quotation---

The PoE (problem of evil) is a paradox or contradiction. Imagine a god who didn't want evil to exist, who had the ability to prevent or eliminate evil, and who knew all about evil and its causes and cures. If a god like that existed, then there would be no evil.

It is only if someone believes in such a god, and also believes in evil, that there is a problem.

The tri-omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) cannot logically coexist with evil.

Weaker gods, less-knowing gods, not-so-benevolent gods, they don't have a problem with evil. For them, coexistence with evil is no contradiction.

Jews don't necessarily believe god is all that good. A lot of them don't believe in him at all. And I don't know enough about Islam to have an opinion on whether the existence of evil is a problem for them. And a lot of Christians, too, don't believe that god is omnipotent, or don't believe he is omniscient, or don't believe he's really opposed to evil, or don't believe that evil exists.

But many Christians, those that I think of as regular Christians, or "standard normal Christians," do hold conflicting beliefs about evil. They maintain that god is powerful enough to have prevented evil easily, that he knows everything (including the future), and that he really really strongly wants ("omni" wants) there to be no evil---and they believe that evil exists.

That's a problem. That's a contradiction. We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong.

So it makes no sense to say that only Christianity explains the problem of evil.

To clarify according to Islam for Dummies,The complete idiots guide to the Koran, and Why I am not a Muslim the problem of evil is relevant to islam as Allah is explicitely a god of love and all three omnis.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 12:41:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 10:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
I've had a question about the problem of evil, so I'll explain it here.

--- gr33k wrote: ---
:Christianity is the only religion to teach total depravity.

Total depravity is the utter inability of a human being to be saved. No benevolent act will ever be great enough to blot out the sin and corruption that we take on by simply breathing the air of this world. It follows from this that no "punishment" is undeserved, which removes the POE. Religions that teach children are born naturally pure (i.e. Islam) can easily be debunked via the problem of Evil. To my knoweledge Christianity is the only religion that adequately answers the fundamental question of why bad things happen to "good" people.

---end of quotation---

The PoE (problem of evil) is a paradox or contradiction. Imagine a god who didn't want evil to exist, who had the ability to prevent or eliminate evil, and who knew all about evil and its causes and cures. If a god like that existed, then there would be no evil.

It is only if someone believes in such a god, and also believes in evil, that there is a problem.

The tri-omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) cannot logically coexist with evil.

Weaker gods, less-knowing gods, not-so-benevolent gods, they don't have a problem with evil. For them, coexistence with evil is no contradiction.

Jews don't necessarily believe god is all that good. A lot of them don't believe in him at all. And I don't know enough about Islam to have an opinion on whether the existence of evil is a problem for them. And a lot of Christians, too, don't believe that god is omnipotent, or don't believe he is omniscient, or don't believe he's really opposed to evil, or don't believe that evil exists.

But many Christians, those that I think of as regular Christians, or "standard normal Christians," do hold conflicting beliefs about evil. They maintain that god is powerful enough to have prevented evil easily, that he knows everything (including the future), and that he really really strongly wants ("omni" wants) there to be no evil---and they believe that evil exists.

That's a problem. That's a contradiction. We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong.

So it makes no sense to say that only Christianity explains the problem of evil.

also be prepared, certain idiots cough cough cerebral cough cough will assume you are asserting an objective evil and give you a hard time because he learned a cute new term moral nilihsim and wants to pretend like he is one.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 1:24:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 12:41:54 PM, izbo10 wrote:

also be prepared, certain idiots cough cough cerebral cough cough will assume you are asserting an objective evil and give you a hard time because he learned a cute new term moral nilihsim and wants to pretend like he is one.

I know I shouldn't but here goes...

You continue to post snide little insults and retain a dishonest signature aimed at me, presumably this is to provoke me into a response. Yet when I am stupid enough to reply you refuse to actually discuss the bone of contention between us.

For the record I am a moral nhilist expressivist, I am perfectly able to explain that, to defend it, to debate it. If you have an issues with moral nihilism expressivism then please express that or challenge me to a debate. This is after all a debate site.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 2:38:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 1:24:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 12:41:54 PM, izbo10 wrote:

also be prepared, certain idiots cough cough cerebral cough cough will assume you are asserting an objective evil and give you a hard time because he learned a cute new term moral nilihsim and wants to pretend like he is one.

I know I shouldn't but here goes...

You continue to post snide little insults and retain a dishonest signature aimed at me, presumably this is to provoke me into a response. Yet when I am stupid enough to reply you refuse to actually discuss the bone of contention between us.

For the record I am a moral nhilist expressivist, I am perfectly able to explain that, to defend it, to debate it. If you have an issues with moral nihilism expressivism then please express that or challenge me to a debate. This is after all a debate site.

oh so the assumption(under the christian worldview) that evil exists is ok in an argument, but dar you say murder is wrong(under the christian worldveiw) your purely hypothetical worldview of moral nihilism comes out. A worldview that is impossible to live.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 2:40:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 10:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
I've had a question about the problem of evil, so I'll explain it here.

--- gr33k wrote: ---
:Christianity is the only religion to teach total depravity.

Total depravity is the utter inability of a human being to be saved. No benevolent act will ever be great enough to blot out the sin and corruption that we take on by simply breathing the air of this world. It follows from this that no "punishment" is undeserved, which removes the POE. Religions that teach children are born naturally pure (i.e. Islam) can easily be debunked via the problem of Evil. To my knoweledge Christianity is the only religion that adequately answers the fundamental question of why bad things happen to "good" people.

---end of quotation---

The PoE (problem of evil) is a paradox or contradiction. Imagine a god who didn't want evil to exist, who had the ability to prevent or eliminate evil, and who knew all about evil and its causes and cures. If a god like that existed, then there would be no evil.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. How is a God suppose to make a being who has the ability to choose for himself, yet not allow him to choose anything but what God wants?? What you're asking for is logically impossible. You can't give man free will, yet only give him the ability to choose one thing. Those two things are mutually exclusive, they can't co-exist within the same being. There is no choice to be made, man would simply be a mindless robot acting out a script. This is not an effective argument against an all-powerful God.

It is only if someone believes in such a god, and also believes in evil, that there is a problem.

It's a problem for you, not for us.

The tri-omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) cannot logically coexist with evil.

If you use those words in such a way as to make it sound illogical, then you may have a fair argument. But the only really accurate way to argue against God, is to argue against what the Bible says about His qualities. The only way to show me that I'm wrong, is to disprove what I believe about God, and you can't do that by choosing three words and making an argument against them.

Weaker gods, less-knowing gods, not-so-benevolent gods, they don't have a problem with evil. For them, coexistence with evil is no contradiction.

Jews don't necessarily believe god is all that good. A lot of them don't believe in him at all. And I don't know enough about Islam to have an opinion on whether the existence of evil is a problem for them. And a lot of Christians, too, don't believe that god is omnipotent, or don't believe he is omniscient, or don't believe he's really opposed to evil, or don't believe that evil exists.

But many Christians, those that I think of as regular Christians, or "standard normal Christians," do hold conflicting beliefs about evil. They maintain that god is powerful enough to have prevented evil easily,

God chose to make us He did, but He knew that we had the capacity to do bad things. Love is not real love unless it is given freely, with an option of not loving(free will). This is why God made us as He did, not because His power was limited. This choice does not, in any way, disprove God's power.

that he knows everything (including the future), and that he really really strongly wants ("omni" wants) there to be no evil---and they believe that evil exists.

Yes, He really wants us do good, but He wants us to "choose" to do good. Some of us don't though, so yes evil exists. I still don't see the problem, nor the contradiction.

That's a problem. That's a contradiction. We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong.

It seems to me that your understanding of what you're arguing against is what is wrong. I'm really not sure how you made the leap to now "know" that Christians are wrong, unless you're claiming omniscience. You'll have to elaborate.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 2:46:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 2:38:41 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/20/2011 1:24:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 12:41:54 PM, izbo10 wrote:

also be prepared, certain idiots cough cough cerebral cough cough will assume you are asserting an objective evil and give you a hard time because he learned a cute new term moral nilihsim and wants to pretend like he is one.

I know I shouldn't but here goes...

You continue to post snide little insults and retain a dishonest signature aimed at me, presumably this is to provoke me into a response. Yet when I am stupid enough to reply you refuse to actually discuss the bone of contention between us.

For the record I am a moral nhilist expressivist, I am perfectly able to explain that, to defend it, to debate it. If you have an issues with moral nihilism expressivism then please express that or challenge me to a debate. This is after all a debate site.

oh so the assumption(under the christian worldview) that evil exists is ok in an argument, but dar you say murder is wrong(under the christian worldveiw) your purely hypothetical worldview of moral nihilism comes out. A worldview that is impossible to live.

Seriously man this was months ago, you used the term moral, you were simply asked what you meant by that. I don't really see why you are sill so upset. Personally I think Jehovah is a moral nihilist as well, in fact he goes one step further into utter amorality. Your assumption that moral nihilism is purely hypothetical and that it is impossible to live by is an understandable mistake. I was little confused by it as well and posted threads in which I said crap like that, only difference is I actually read the replies and have heard of wikipedia and google.

I have no idea what you want from me but I am certain your whining will continue.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:50:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Dactmoto:
Please go away. I think you're a troll, full of insults and baiting, wanting to rile people up rather than having meaningful conversation.

Don't post in any of my threads.

Izbo and Cerebral Narcisist:
You seem to have a prior disagreement about something. Don't bring it here. This thread is for GR33k and me to have a calm discussion on a single topic.

Medic:
Welcome. You make interesting points. I'll be happy to address them at greater length when I get time. I'm packing to go on the road, so I don't know when that will be.

I'll say this now: If you don't believe in an omipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god, then the problem of evil is no problem for you. The PoE disproves a particular kind of god, not necessarily your god, and definitely not all Christian gods.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:54:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:50:55 PM, wiploc wrote:
Izbo and Cerebral Narcisist:
You seem to have a prior disagreement about something. Don't bring it here. This thread is for GR33k and me to have a calm discussion on a single topic.


I am responding to a personal attack which by Izbo's implication is directly relevant to the PoE, take it up with him.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:19:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, the POE is NOT that some suffering/evil exists which is not warranted or deserved. . . definitely clears things up, thanks m8.

Also, I still believe that Christianity answers the POE quite easily. The idea that God is "omnipotent" is never found in the Bible.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:20:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also, Cerebral, if you dont mind will you explain what moral nihilism is? Actually, lets make this a challenge. . . explain it in ONE paragraph or less!
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:24:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:20:49 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
Also, Cerebral, if you dont mind will you explain what moral nihilism is? Actually, lets make this a challenge. . . explain it in ONE paragraph or less!

Moral Nihilism Expressivism is the position that objective moral facts do not exist, moral statements being merely expressions of personal taste and emotion.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 5:10:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:19:45 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
So, the POE is NOT that some suffering/evil exists which is not warranted or deserved. . . definitely clears things up, thanks m8.

Also, I still believe that Christianity answers the POE quite easily. The idea that God is "omnipotent" is never found in the Bible.

Good response.

There are five possible good responses to the PoE:

1. God isn't all powerful. (This is your response.)
2. God isn't all-knowing. (For instance, some people who call themselves Christians don't believe that god knows the future. He has to guess what will make people happy.)
3. God isn't totally opposed to evil.
4. Logic sucks. My belief isn't logical, but I'm keeping it anyway.
5. Evil doesn't exist.

I've had people use all five responses on me.

If you run into a Christian who believes god is omnipotent, then the PoE is your tool of choice: If evil exists, and if god is omniscient and and omnibenevolent, then he can't be omnipotent.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 5:35:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:24:09 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 4:20:49 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
Also, Cerebral, if you dont mind will you explain what moral nihilism is? Actually, lets make this a challenge. . . explain it in ONE paragraph or less!

Moral Nihilism Expressivism is the position that objective moral facts do not exist, moral statements being merely expressions of personal taste and emotion.

In other words a catholic priest: I like raping children

cerebral: well i don't but to each his own. that is your taste and preference so be it.

Strangely, cerebral is too stupid to realize he doesn't, nor could he ever actually live under those premises.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 5:39:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 5:35:55 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 9/20/2011 4:24:09 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 4:20:49 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
Also, Cerebral, if you dont mind will you explain what moral nihilism is? Actually, lets make this a challenge. . . explain it in ONE paragraph or less!

Moral Nihilism Expressivism is the position that objective moral facts do not exist, moral statements being merely expressions of personal taste and emotion.

In other words a catholic priest: I like raping children

cerebral: well i don't but to each his own. that is your taste and preference so be it.

Strangely, cerebral is too stupid to realize he doesn't, nor could he ever actually live under those premises.

1: How is this relevant to this thread.
2: Where have I ever expressed such an opinion.
3: Why bother making these snide remarks if you are not interested in my replies.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 5:51:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
izbo, we all understand you have a deep hatred for cerebral because hes a "poser" or something. . . but you posted that exact comment on his other thread . . . do you really follow him around trolling? come on . . .

also, I love the idea of Gods omniscience, lemme throw this at you

I explain his omniscience as God know the past, present, and end . . . not the "future" but the end. He also understands perfectly what is required to reach that end and has designed the universe so meticulously that it will inevitably lead to that end.

Basically, there is an infinite number of possible changes that could happen in the world, i.e. I cough on someone so they never get sick, which means that said person never gets their aunt sally sick just before she leaves for Australia and happens to get that poor old man sick who just so happens was supposed to do something amazing for the Kingdom of God. . . .you get where I'm going?

Ok, so the idea is that since God has "infinite" knowledge, he can plan for an "infinite" number of discrepancies. It just so happens that one of the things he "planned" for was the fall of man. . . He knew it was possible, so he "planned" accordingly.

whatcha think?
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 6:01:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
People still argue using the PoE? Huh. I thought that that died out a while ago.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 6:09:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 5:51:43 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
izbo, we all understand you have a deep hatred for cerebral because hes a "poser" or something. . . but you posted that exact comment on his other thread . . . do you really follow him around trolling? come on . . .

also, I love the idea of Gods omniscience, lemme throw this at you

I explain his omniscience as God know the past, present, and end . . . not the "future" but the end. He also understands perfectly what is required to reach that end and has designed the universe so meticulously that it will inevitably lead to that end.

Basically, there is an infinite number of possible changes that could happen in the world, i.e. I cough on someone so they never get sick, which means that said person never gets their aunt sally sick just before she leaves for Australia and happens to get that poor old man sick who just so happens was supposed to do something amazing for the Kingdom of God. . . .you get where I'm going?

Ok, so the idea is that since God has "infinite" knowledge, he can plan for an "infinite" number of discrepancies. It just so happens that one of the things he "planned" for was the fall of man. . . He knew it was possible, so he "planned" accordingly.

whatcha think?

All the suffering in the world, is that really the best way for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God to get to an omnibenevolent end?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 6:23:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The most common response to the PoE is that evil exists for some morally sufficient reason. If this response is even conceivable, then the logical PoE fails. That being said, I still think that the argument works if you talk of gratuitous evil providing evidence against the traditional conception of God.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 6:36:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God designed the "end," ultimately we choose the means by which that end will be attained. Because we chose to disobey God, as His creation He had the right to utterly destroy us, instead he had a different plan though . . .

Im not gonna bore you with the whole Gospel spiel :) . . . .

Anyways, no qualms with the omniscience AND freewill being satisfied? Thats a question I debate often with people, and a very fun one at that.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 7:27:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
People still argue using the PoE? Huh. I thought that that died out a while ago.

No, it's bulletproof.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 7:29:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 6:09:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 5:51:43 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
All the suffering in the world, is that really the best way for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God to get to an omnibenevolent end?

His god isn't omnipotent or omniscient. We don't know whether it's omnibenevolent.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 7:54:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 2:40:29 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/19/2011 10:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
The PoE (problem of evil) is a paradox or contradiction. Imagine a god who didn't want evil to exist, who had the ability to prevent or eliminate evil, and who knew all about evil and its causes and cures. If a god like that existed, then there would be no evil.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. How is a God suppose to make a being who has the ability to choose for himself, yet not allow him to choose anything but what God wants?? What you're asking for is logically impossible. You can't give man free will, yet only give him the ability to choose one thing. Those two things are mutually exclusive, they can't co-exist within the same being. There is no choice to be made, man would simply be a mindless robot acting out a script. This is not an effective argument against an all-powerful God.

This seems like a change of topic. I pointed out that if somebody didn't want something, and had ability to prevent it, then it wouldn't exist. There's no way around that.

The tri-omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) cannot logically coexist with evil.

If you use those words in such a way as to make it sound illogical, then you may have a fair argument. But the only really accurate way to argue against God, ...

Why would I want to do that?

... is to argue against what the Bible says about His qualities.

I don't believe in god. Nor do I believe Christians get their beliefs about god from the bible.

The only way to show me that I'm wrong, is to disprove what I believe about God, and you can't do that by choosing three words and making an argument against them.

I can't show you that you're wrong. I don't even know whether you're wrong, or what you might be wrong about. I can't disprove whatever it is that you believe. I don't know what you believe.

But, apparently you don't believe that god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenvolent. Therefore, you shouldn't have any problem with the PoE. It only disproves a particular kind of god, and that kind is not your kind.

God chose to make us He did, but He knew that we had the capacity to do bad things. Love is not real love unless it is given freely, with an option of not loving(free will). This is why God made us as He did, not because His power was limited. This choice does not, in any way, disprove God's power.

Fine. Make him omnipotent. If you try to make him omniscient and omnibenevolent too, and if you also want to believe in evil, then you have a problem.

that he knows everything (including the future), and that he really really strongly wants ("omni" wants) there to be no evil---and they believe that evil exists.

Yes, He really wants us do good, but He wants us to "choose" to do good. Some of us don't though, so yes evil exists. I still don't see the problem, nor the contradiction.

So you're rejecting omnibenevolence. God isn't dead set against evil. Fine. Then why are you arguing against the PoE?

That's a problem. That's a contradiction. We absolutely know that these Christians are wrong.

It seems to me that your understanding of what you're arguing against is what is wrong. I'm really not sure how you made the leap to now "know" that Christians are wrong, unless you're claiming omniscience. You'll have to elaborate.

Let's take a god less close to your heart. Let's say he wants everything to be blue. And he wants this a lot. He totally, infinitely, unconflictedly wants everything to be blue. That is, his desire for everything to be blue is "omni."

Also, let's make him so powerful that he can easily make everything blue. It's not a significant drain on his resources. He can do it with no effort at all.

So, now the question: Does this god exist?

The answer is no. This god does not exist. Some things aren't blue, so we know for a fact that he doesn't exist.

If there were a god who wanted everything blue, and who could make everything blue, then everything would be blue.

Since some things aren't blue, that god does not exist.

There aren't two sides to this. This god does not exist.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 10:31:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
well, Ill say this,

The PoE doesnt apply to what I believe about God. . . the problem with Christianity is (as with any belief religious or not) it has become convoluted with minor discrepancies and changes. . . in the end the belief that Jesus the Christ died for our sins and faith that in Him we are forgiven is all that really matters. . . any outside arguing or questioning, as fun as it may be, is superfluous.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 10:34:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 10:31:56 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
well, Ill say this,

The PoE doesnt apply to what I believe about God. . . the problem with Christianity is (as with any belief religious or not) it has become convoluted with minor discrepancies and changes. . . in the end the belief that Jesus the Christ died for our sins and faith that in Him we are forgiven is all that really matters. . . any outside arguing or questioning, as fun as it may be, is superfluous.

selectively taking parts of the bible, if you want to actually figure out the truth Jesus was a apocalyptic preacher (born in nazareth) who thought the end times would come he ended up getting crucified. End of Story. End of Jesus.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 10:50:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
not at all selective. . . so plz dont spew ignorant filth into forums that have somewhat logical portions to them
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 10:52:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 10:50:48 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
not at all selective. . . so plz dont spew ignorant filth into forums that have somewhat logical portions to them

You picked the parts that were important and said the rest doesn't matter the bible is clear god is all powerful and is also clear at other points that he is not though.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.