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Heaven, Hell and the problem I have with God

Jon1
Posts: 314
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9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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9/23/2011 2:48:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hell is here on Earth, dawg.

So is heaven.

But they are in the mind, yo.

IF you are miserable, there is a good chance it is your own fault.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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9/23/2011 2:57:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

No true God of actuality would do such a thing. Some people are just weak minded and tend to just swallow concepts that don't actually make sense. Religions that have a hell through judgement are religions that reflect the mentality of some groups of men ages ago. These men wiped out other groups of men through conquest, killing all who oppose their views. What you have left is a world who is full of descendants from those conquerors and citizens from the conqueror nations. This is why there is such a high volume of people who believe such primitive nonsense. The human mind has moved far beyond these primitive theories about God and has created new mentalities for how such concepts may rationalized. The difference is that this new wave of thought doesn't go around killing people in order to gain followers like certain "hell bent" religions of the past did. Now people have the freedom of choice, true free will, that's how the true concepts of God and spirituality will be found and accepted. "Hell bent" religions spit words of love and free will, yet contradict themselves by believing the very concepts that they have built their teachings and laws around. These religions will eventually be replaced by a more intelligently evolved design, just as early paganism was seemingly replaced by "one God" religions world wide. A larger picture of spirituality will unfold as humans become more intelligent on average through this "age of information", while galloping full speed into an "age of awakening". I can recommend a few books that may interest you. These books present a new way to look at God and spirituality from a logical and intelligent point of view.

The Possible Human: http://www.amazon.com...

The Science of Spirituality: http://www.amazon.com...

The God Theory: http://www.amazon.com...
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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9/23/2011 3:45:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

The answer I've heard is that sinning against God is a crime of infinite magnitude, and thus we all deserve eternal punishment since we all sometimes sin against God, and only accepting Jesus can save us. It's absurd, of course.
Jon1
Posts: 314
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9/24/2011 1:24:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 3:45:16 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

The answer I've heard is that sinning against God is a crime of infinite magnitude, and thus we all deserve eternal punishment since we all sometimes sin against God, and only accepting Jesus can save us. It's absurd, of course.

Not really, I do believe that sin against God deserves great punishment (and sins against, for example, animals deserve lighter judgement). Whether it has to be eternal is another toic.

However, I don't believe sin exists. You can't sin. You can't do wrong. On the other hand, you can't be good. You can't do good. For we do what we see as the most reasonable choice.

I am certain that Jesus died on the cross because he believed it was the right thing to do. I mean, even insane people act according to what they consider to be best for them, though it usually isn't.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/24/2011 1:37:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/24/2011 1:24:25 PM, Jon1 wrote:
Not really, I do believe that sin against God deserves great punishment (and sins against, for example, animals deserve lighter judgement). Whether it has to be eternal is another toic.

Which god?

I am certain that Jesus died on the cross because he believed it was the right thing to do.

I am certain that the Tooth Fairy left me money on my pillow when I lost my first tooth because she believed it was the right thing to do, and so do I :)
President of DDO
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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9/24/2011 1:41:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If Jesus died for my sins, don't I owe it to him to sin as much as I can?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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9/24/2011 2:44:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/24/2011 1:41:06 PM, bluesteel wrote:
If Jesus died for my sins, don't I owe it to him to sin as much as I can?

Is that a quote? I'm sure I've heard that from somewhere...
Jon1
Posts: 314
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9/24/2011 5:33:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/24/2011 1:37:31 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 9/24/2011 1:24:25 PM, Jon1 wrote:
Not really, I do believe that sin against God deserves great punishment (and sins against, for example, animals deserve lighter judgement). Whether it has to be eternal is another toic.

Which god?

The Christian one.

I am certain that Jesus died on the cross because he believed it was the right thing to do.

I am certain that the Tooth Fairy left me money under my pillow when I lost my first tooth because she believed it was the best thing to do. Therefore, she did not do good nor bad. She did what she thought she should do, of course. Meaning: tooth fairies do not deserve hell nor heaven.

Out of context. First, I am attacking Christianity and not defending it. Second, you're welcome for the fix.
Jon1
Posts: 314
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9/24/2011 5:36:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/24/2011 1:41:06 PM, bluesteel wrote:
If Jesus died for my sins, don't I owe it to him to sin as much as I can?

If a parent dies for your failures, don't you owe to your parent's to be the biggest failure? You're assuming sin is good, not sure how that's possible but that's what you're doing.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/24/2011 5:37:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 2:48:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Hell is here on Earth, dawg.

So is heaven.

But they are in the mind, yo.


IF you are miserable, there is a good chance it is your own fault.


ignorance is bliss.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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9/24/2011 5:53:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

We can look at this practically and realize we would place the same distinctions as God.
It is my best option to rape as many women as I can.
God placed me in this superior body with this "great" lust for women. God placed those women in my path.
Thus I should rape all of them with reckless abandon.

If you use your logic as I understand it this thinking is valid.

The problem is not how you define good or bad or sin vs. decency it depends on how God defines these things.

Christian theology does make allowances for ignorance, but not deliberate ignorance. It makes allowances for time and place but not going against the God given conscience you posesses.

It is like mathematics. Some moral calculations can be complicated but with practice understanding comes more easily.
Jon1
Posts: 314
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9/24/2011 6:09:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/24/2011 5:53:40 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

We can look at this practically and realize we would place the same distinctions as God.
It is my best option to rape as many women as I can.
God placed me in this superior body with this "great" lust for women. God placed those women in my path.
Thus I should rape all of them with reckless abandon.

No, thus you shall rape all women (whether you should is another topic). If you won't, then you're not seeing rape as your best option anymore, are you?


If you use your logic as I understand it this thinking is valid.

The problem is not how you define good or bad or sin vs. decency it depends on how God defines these things.

Christian theology does make allowances for ignorance, but not deliberate ignorance. It makes allowances for time and place but not going against the God given conscience you posesses.

It is like mathematics. Some moral calculations can be complicated but with practice understanding comes more easily.

Forgive me, but I do not see the objection.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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9/24/2011 6:28:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/24/2011 6:09:44 PM, Jon1 wrote:
At 9/24/2011 5:53:40 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

We can look at this practically and realize we would place the same distinctions as God.
It is my best option to rape as many women as I can.
God placed me in this superior body with this "great" lust for women. God placed those women in my path.
Thus I should rape all of them with reckless abandon.

No, thus you shall rape all women (whether you should is another topic). If you won't, then you're not seeing rape as your best option anymore, are you?


If you use your logic as I understand it this thinking is valid.

The problem is not how you define good or bad or sin vs. decency it depends on how God defines these things.

Christian theology does make allowances for ignorance, but not deliberate ignorance. It makes allowances for time and place but not going against the God given conscience you posesses.

It is like mathematics. Some moral calculations can be complicated but with practice understanding comes more easily.

Forgive me, but I do not see the objection.

Your response did not make sense. Please restate.

The objection to your statement is that you are using a self orientated frame of reference as to what is the best option.
It is decided by God what is the best option we should have chosen.
Everybody has the ability to choose for the good or for the evil. Everyone's specific life is designed for that choice.
You arbitrarily stating something is the "best option" for you is an arbitrary standard of measurement.
Some people's choice of "best option" is completely morally evil and it is clear they will still go to hell.

A pedophile feels he did nothing wrong and chose his "best option" will still find himself quite uncomfortably behind bars.
Jon1
Posts: 314
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9/25/2011 4:36:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Your response did not make sense. Please restate.

What part did you not understand?


The objection to your statement is that you are using a self orientated frame of reference as to what is the best option.
It is decided by God what is the best option we should have chosen.

As I said before, it doesn't matter what actually is the best option. What matters is what the person considers as his best option.

Everybody has the ability to choose for the good or for the evil. Everyone's specific life is designed for that choice.

A chess player can see several strategies. Even so, he always and without fail chooses what he thinks is the best move.

You arbitrarily stating something is the "best option" for you is an arbitrary standard of measurement.

That's right, I am not God and so I don't know what actually is the best option. I can only do what I think is the best option. In fact, I have no choice. I will always, whether I want it or not, choose what I think is the best option.

If luck has it and my best options are near God's best options, I will go to heaven. Otherwise, if I am unlucky, I will go to hell.

Some people's choice of "best option" is completely morally evil and it is clear they will still go to hell.
A pedophile feels he did nothing wrong and chose his "best option" will still find himself quite uncomfortably behind bars.
For having a different best option :(

Let me get this clearly. You think:
1) God chooses what is actually the best option.
2) Some people's best option is not like God's.
Hence, those people will go to hell.

So, my response is:
1) God chooses what is actually the best option.
2) Some people's best option is not like God's.
3) God and humans act upon their best option. In fact, they have no choice in this matter.

.:. God and person X are ethically identical.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/28/2011 5:10:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

No-one who is being the best they can be is going to hell.

God has given us all a conscience, we all obey or disobey that conscience depending on certain factors and criteria, such as who we are with or what it will cost us etc..

Essetially, free will is a question of courage or cowardice; and courage begets courage and cowardice begets cowardice..

So it is the BRAVE that will get to heaven..
The Cross.. the Cross.
hotdog
Posts: 44
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9/28/2011 8:21:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

This world is hell. Where do you think you are - the good place? God creates this world for those people who choose to reside here. There are only two options - there is heaven which is god's abode, and hell - which is where god isn't. The reason its called hell is because god is not there. Heaven is eternal, this world is temporary. heaven is knowledge, this world is ignorance. heaven is bliss, this world is suffering. This world is the opposite of heaven, its what heaven is not. its the absence of heaven.

god doesnt send you here, you choose to live here. if you are ignorant of god, you are in hell. to get to heaven, you have to find god. if you find him, you will be in heaven. you suffer because you make ignorant decisions, you think its the best thing, but it isnt if it brings you suffering. you made the wrong choice. its not a punishment from god. you have free will - stop choosing things that cause you suffering.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/29/2011 4:37:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/28/2011 5:10:09 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/23/2011 2:32:00 PM, Jon1 wrote:
How could God send us to hell when we do what we consider to be the best option for us? Moreover, why would he bother with the creation of the world?

It seems to me that we are the result of the external factors. In other words, I am the result of my surroundings. If my surroundings were to have been different, Jon1 would not exist.

Considering this, why would God send someone for being what they consider the best they can be?

No-one who is being the best they can be is going to hell.

God has given us all a conscience, we all obey or disobey that conscience depending on certain factors and criteria, such as who we are with or what it will cost us etc..

Essetially, free will is a question of courage or cowardice; and courage begets courage and cowardice begets cowardice..

So it is the BRAVE that will get to heaven..

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


SEE? the cowardly FIRST before all else!
The Cross.. the Cross.