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A Serious Question to Christians

OMGJustinBieber
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10/5/2011 8:43:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm interested in engaging in a serious dialogue with Christians, Muslims, and Jews on DDO. Izbo is not welcome ITT.

Let's say it's taken as accepted that the universe required a supernatural first cause, and that that first cause is "God."

Once the logical necessity of God is acknowledged, how do you get from that to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism? Sure, you have scripture but in the case of the Old/New Testament conflict how do you absolutely prove that the New Testament or Qu'ran is divinely inspired?
Crede
Posts: 455
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10/5/2011 8:52:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well without making a book in this post here we go. If one can get to Theism there are ways to then get to another religion. For Christianity we have the NT. The fact that they are considered to be one of the most, if not thee most reliable historical document ever persevered in it's original writing says a lot about the Judeo-Christian religion. Then you have to consider if the writings are true. Many evidences are available to testify that Jesus is who the NT says he was. The resurrection being the key ingredient in the NT to be exact.

This is a great video to show how one can be led to Christianity. There are two parts to this video so make sure to watch both.
izbo10
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10/5/2011 8:56:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 8:52:10 PM, Crede wrote:
Well without making a book in this post here we go. If one can get to Theism there are ways to then get to another religion. For Christianity we have the NT. The fact that they are considered to be one of the most, if not thee most reliable historical document ever persevered in it's original writing says a lot about the Judeo-Christian religion. Then you have to consider if the writings are true. Many evidences are available to testify that Jesus is who the NT says he was. The resurrection being the key ingredient in the NT to be exact.




This is a great video to show how one can be led to Christianity. There are two parts to this video so make sure to watch both.

Really, seriously? The resurrection does not appear in the first gospel of Mark, just an empty tomb,cue credits. Once we get it, in Matthew, Luke almost immediately contradicts it. Not only this but both Matthew and Luke show a blatant disregard for truth. They make all sorts of contradictions in the birth narrative. Serious scholars almost all agree the resurrection is not a historical event.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Crede
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10/5/2011 9:02:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Really, seriously? The resurrection does not appear in the first gospel of Mark, just an empty tomb,cue credits. Once we get it, in Matthew, Luke almost immediately contradicts it. Not only this but both Matthew and Luke show a blatant disregard for truth. They make all sorts of contradictions in the birth narrative. Serious scholars almost all agree the resurrection is not a historical event.

Did you even watch it or did you just start blabbing?
Illegalcombatant
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10/5/2011 9:09:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 8:43:26 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm interested in engaging in a serious dialogue with Christians, Muslims, and Jews on DDO. Izbo is not welcome ITT.

Let's say it's taken as accepted that the universe required a supernatural first cause, and that that first cause is "God."


There a big gap between first cause and God. Its not necessary that the first cause is all loving or even gives a rats a$$ if babies are raped and tortured.

Its not necessary that the first cause be all powerful, just powerful enough to cause something else.

Its not necessary that the first cause possess any kind of intelligence.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Crede
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10/5/2011 9:11:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Its not necessary that the first cause possess any kind of intelligence.

Well the teleological argument would disagree. The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence.
kohai
Posts: 380
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10/5/2011 9:16:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 8:43:26 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm interested in engaging in a serious dialogue with Christians, Muslims, and Jews on DDO. Izbo is not welcome ITT.

Let's say it's taken as accepted that the universe required a supernatural first cause, and that that first cause is "God."

Once the logical necessity of God is acknowledged, how do you get from that to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism? Sure, you have scripture but in the case of the Old/New Testament conflict how do you absolutely prove that the New Testament or Qu'ran is divinely inspired?

(Devil's advocate)

You cannot prove NT or Qu'ran is inspired as they are based on a personal revelation. However, Judaism is the ONLY RELIGION THAT EVER EXISTED that had G-d speak to 3,000,000 at Mt. Sinai. Cam such an event be faked!
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
Illegalcombatant
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10/5/2011 9:30:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 9:11:57 PM, Crede wrote:
Its not necessary that the first cause possess any kind of intelligence.

Well the teleological argument would disagree. The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence.

"The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, " What so incredible about it ? In any universe where intelligent life exists, there is the temptation to think, Oh see it was made just for us !!!

" to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible," Two lies, yes it is fathomable, and yes it is possible. No serious argument says that its impossible cause it can't be proven that is the case.

"basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence." - Fine precision can be refuted with "ill design" arguments. Women dying in child birth anyone ? The reproductive system could be alot better.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Crede
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10/5/2011 9:32:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You cannot prove NT or Qu'ran is inspired as they are based on a personal revelation. However, Judaism is the ONLY RELIGION THAT EVER EXISTED that had G-d speak to 3,000,000 at Mt. Sinai. Cam such an event be faked!

Well the scripture says it was God breathed, not just personal revelation. And if so, then what was Moses? Wouldn't he have fallen into your view. Besides, Moses being true presupposes that the Judeo God is true. If we use the same presupposition that Christianity is true (which includes the OT God) then we have Christ who was God in person. Therefore we have Christ who was God who spoke to millions of people throughout his life. Also remember that the Jewish religion is the Christian religion minus the NT, so the claim that Judaism is the only religion with this history is false as Christians also hold it as apart of religious history.
kohai
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10/5/2011 9:34:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 9:32:48 PM, Crede wrote:
You cannot prove NT or Qu'ran is inspired as they are based on a personal revelation. However, Judaism is the ONLY RELIGION THAT EVER EXISTED that had G-d speak to 3,000,000 at Mt. Sinai. Cam such an event be faked!

Well the scripture says it was God breathed, not just personal revelation. And if so, then what was Moses? Wouldn't he have fallen into your view. Besides, Moses being true presupposes that the Judeo God is true. If we use the same presupposition that Christianity is true (which includes the OT God) then we have Christ who was God in person. Therefore we have Christ who was God who spoke to millions of people throughout his life. Also remember that the Jewish religion is the Christian religion minus the NT, so the claim that Judaism is the only religion with this history is false as Christians also hold it as apart of religious history.

^lie. Judaism is VASTLY different than the just removal of New Testament.

Jesus sinned. Some are recorded in the Bible, others in Sanhedrian/Talmud.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/5/2011 9:37:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 8:43:26 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm interested in engaging in a serious dialogue with Christians, Muslims, and Jews on DDO. Izbo is not welcome ITT.

Let's say it's taken as accepted that the universe required a supernatural first cause, and that that first cause is "God."

Once the logical necessity of God is acknowledged, how do you get from that to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism? Sure, you have scripture but in the case of the Old/New Testament conflict how do you absolutely prove that the New Testament or Qu'ran is divinely inspired?

What do you mean by "absolute proof"? Do you mean ironclad, incontrovertible, undoubtable evidence or an argument with the aforementioned traits? There isn't any and you're never going to find it and that mainly has to with our (humans) epistemic situation.

On which matters do you have "absolute proof" in the first place? Very, very few.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Crede
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10/5/2011 9:41:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 9:30:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:11:57 PM, Crede wrote:
Its not necessary that the first cause possess any kind of intelligence.

Well the teleological argument would disagree. The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence.

"The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, " What so incredible about it ? In any universe where intelligent life exists, there is the temptation to think, Oh see it was made just for us !!!

The argument does not say made just for us, but it does argue that it was made, and with superior intelligence.

" to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible," Two lies, yes it is fathomable, and yes it is possible. No serious argument says that its impossible cause it can't be proven that is the case.

Well 1 in 10^37 (conservative estimate) is pretty unfathomable. And this number is only the parameters of the quantom particles in order to have a sustainable universe.
If you add all the other necessary elements it even furthers the case.

"basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence." - Fine precision can be refuted with "ill design" arguments. Women dying in child birth anyone ? The reproductive system could be alot better.

Your analogy of unfortunate events has no explicit reason why the Universe wasn't created.

Also this has nothing to do with the original intent of this thread, please stay on topic!
Illegalcombatant
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10/5/2011 9:55:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 9:41:47 PM, Crede wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:30:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:11:57 PM, Crede wrote:
Its not necessary that the first cause possess any kind of intelligence.

Well the teleological argument would disagree. The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence.

"The fact that the universe is so incredibly finely tuned, " What so incredible about it ? In any universe where intelligent life exists, there is the temptation to think, Oh see it was made just for us !!!

The argument does not say made just for us, but it does argue that it was made, and with superior intelligence.

" to a degree that is unfathomable, basically impossible," Two lies, yes it is fathomable, and yes it is possible. No serious argument says that its impossible cause it can't be proven that is the case.

Well 1 in 10^37 (conservative estimate) is pretty unfathomable. And this number is only the parameters of the quantom particles in order to have a sustainable universe.
If you add all the other necessary elements it even furthers the case.

"basically impossible, shows that if the universe was created, it was done so with such a fine precision it shows a massively superior intelligence." - Fine precision can be refuted with "ill design" arguments. Women dying in child birth anyone ? The reproductive system could be alot better.

Your analogy of unfortunate events has no explicit reason why the Universe wasn't created.

So ? Its better to say we don't know, than to use the "GOD did it" for everything we don't understand now isn't it ? How do you magnets work ? I dunno ergo God did it.

Oh I see, when considering the claim that the universe is the product of an OMI God, women dying in child birth is just an "unfortunate" event ? So by unfortunate event you mean bad crappy ill design maybe ?

Also this has nothing to do with the original intent of this thread, please stay on topic!

No your the one who made these assertions in the first place. So either withdraw them or be prepared to defend them :)

Well 1 in 10^37 (conservative estimate) is pretty unfathomable. And this number is only the parameters of the quantom particles in order to have a sustainable universe.

What is the argument here ? The universe operates a certain way therefore God did it ? Why can't the universe be the way it is WITHOUT God ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
kohai
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10/5/2011 10:00:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 9:46:51 PM, Crede wrote:
Jesus sinned. Some are recorded in the Bible, others in Sanhedrian/Talmud.

Jesus sinned?

Yes. We can debate if you want.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
Crede
Posts: 455
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10/5/2011 10:02:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:00:41 PM, kohai wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:46:51 PM, Crede wrote:
Jesus sinned. Some are recorded in the Bible, others in Sanhedrian/Talmud.

Jesus sinned?

Yes. We can debate if you want.

Excellent, I'd be willing to except that one.
kohai
Posts: 380
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10/5/2011 10:04:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:02:59 PM, Crede wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:00:41 PM, kohai wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:46:51 PM, Crede wrote:
Jesus sinned. Some are recorded in the Bible, others in Sanhedrian/Talmud.

Jesus sinned?

Yes. We can debate if you want.

Excellent, I'd be willing to except that one.

*Accept

Challenge me ad I have burden of proof.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
Crede
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10/5/2011 10:05:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No your the one who made these assertions in the first place. So either withdraw them or be prepared to defend them :)

Well 1 in 10^37 (conservative estimate) is pretty unfathomable. And this number is only the parameters of the quantom particles in order to have a sustainable universe.

What is the argument here ? The universe operates a certain way therefore God did it ? Why can't the universe be the way it is WITHOUT God ?

Actually you started brining in existence of God arguments with the first cause argument. I got suckered in following you down but I'm trying to get back on topic. Look back at your first post if you don't believe me. The fact that you don't know about the probability factor pertaining to the fine tuning argument shows me you don't actually have any idea about what the actual argument is...go do some research please and then ask me about it in a different thread.
Crede
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10/5/2011 10:07:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:04:27 PM, kohai wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:02:59 PM, Crede wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:00:41 PM, kohai wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:46:51 PM, Crede wrote:
Jesus sinned. Some are recorded in the Bible, others in Sanhedrian/Talmud.

Jesus sinned?

Yes. We can debate if you want.

Excellent, I'd be willing to except that one.

*Accept

Challenge me ad I have burden of proof.

Can this wait for a few days until I finish the debate I just started or are you gunning to start it right away? I'd appreciate it if you could wait cause I like to fully concentrate on one debate at a time.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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10/5/2011 10:08:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What do you mean by "absolute proof"? Do you mean ironclad, incontrovertible, undoubtable evidence or an argument with the aforementioned traits? There isn't any and you're never going to find it and that mainly has to with our (humans) epistemic situation.
On which matters do you have "absolute proof" in the first place? Very, very few.

I'm just asking them to make a strong case. My wording may be off.

There a big gap between first cause and God. Its not necessary that the first cause is all loving or even gives a rats a$$ if babies are raped and tortured.

Its not necessary that the first cause be all powerful, just powerful enough to cause something else.

Its not necessary that the first cause possess any kind of intelligence.

Yes, I'm trying to tackle the issue one step at a time. We'll get no where if we just bring our last of 1,000 atheist critiques towards religion.
kohai
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10/5/2011 10:10:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:07:12 PM, Crede wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:04:27 PM, kohai wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:02:59 PM, Crede wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:00:41 PM, kohai wrote:
At 10/5/2011 9:46:51 PM, Crede wrote:
Jesus sinned. Some are recorded in the Bible, others in Sanhedrian/Talmud.

Jesus sinned?

Yes. We can debate if you want.

Excellent, I'd be willing to except that one.

*Accept

Challenge me ad I have burden of proof.

Can this wait for a few days until I finish the debate I just started or are you gunning to start it right away? I'd appreciate it if you could wait cause I like to fully concentrate on one debate at a time.

Few days. Besides, I have an abortion debate I need to focus on.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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10/5/2011 10:14:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Actually you started brining in existence of God arguments with the first cause argument. I got suckered in following you down but I'm trying to get back on topic. Look back at your first post if you don't believe me. The fact that you don't know about the probability factor pertaining to the fine tuning argument shows me you don't actually have any idea about what the actual argument is...go do some research please and then ask me about it in a different thread.

I know enough about probability to know that you need a number of trials and events to come out with a number. How many trials have there been of the universe again ? 1, 10 , infinity ? You can't argue probabilities unless you have this information.

How am I doing so far ?

How many trials of universe with life like ours has there been ? What about trials of universes with life that is not like ours and can operate in a universe with different constants and or laws.

Tell me how I don't understand.

But hey, golly, we don't know these things, but lets just say its so fantastically improbable so it must be God eh ?

What was the probability of God existing in the first place again ? :)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
popculturepooka
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10/5/2011 10:21:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:14:31 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Actually you started brining in existence of God arguments with the first cause argument. I got suckered in following you down but I'm trying to get back on topic. Look back at your first post if you don't believe me. The fact that you don't know about the probability factor pertaining to the fine tuning argument shows me you don't actually have any idea about what the actual argument is...go do some research please and then ask me about it in a different thread.

I know enough about probability to know that you need a number of trials and events to come out with a number.

Not with bayesian probabilty.

*yawn*
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Crede
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10/5/2011 10:23:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:14:31 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Actually you started brining in existence of God arguments with the first cause argument. I got suckered in following you down but I'm trying to get back on topic. Look back at your first post if you don't believe me. The fact that you don't know about the probability factor pertaining to the fine tuning argument shows me you don't actually have any idea about what the actual argument is...go do some research please and then ask me about it in a different thread.

I know enough about probability to know that you need a number of trials and events to come out with a number. How many trials have there been of the universe again ? 1, 10 , infinity ? You can't argue probabilities unless you have this information.

How am I doing so far ?

How many trials of universe with life like ours has there been ? What about trials of universes with life that is not like ours and can operate in a universe with different constants and or laws.

Tell me how I don't understand.

But hey, golly, we don't know these things, but lets just say its so fantastically improbable so it must be God eh ?

What was the probability of God existing in the first place again ? :)

If you really want to debate this, I will challenge you to a debate later on the topic. I firmly believe you are absolutely wrong about your thought process but whatever. If you are interested let me know.

Sorry OMGJustinBeiber for how off topic this has gotten.
Illegalcombatant
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10/5/2011 10:25:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:23:56 PM, Crede wrote:
At 10/5/2011 10:14:31 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Actually you started brining in existence of God arguments with the first cause argument. I got suckered in following you down but I'm trying to get back on topic. Look back at your first post if you don't believe me. The fact that you don't know about the probability factor pertaining to the fine tuning argument shows me you don't actually have any idea about what the actual argument is...go do some research please and then ask me about it in a different thread.

I know enough about probability to know that you need a number of trials and events to come out with a number. How many trials have there been of the universe again ? 1, 10 , infinity ? You can't argue probabilities unless you have this information.

How am I doing so far ?

How many trials of universe with life like ours has there been ? What about trials of universes with life that is not like ours and can operate in a universe with different constants and or laws.

Tell me how I don't understand.

But hey, golly, we don't know these things, but lets just say its so fantastically improbable so it must be God eh ?

What was the probability of God existing in the first place again ? :)

If you really want to debate this, I will challenge you to a debate later on the topic. I firmly believe you are absolutely wrong about your thought process but whatever. If you are interested let me know.

Sorry OMGJustinBeiber for how off topic this has gotten.

Give two examples of where I am wrong in my thought processes please :)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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10/5/2011 10:29:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 10:28:17 PM, Crede wrote:
Give two examples of where I am wrong in my thought processes please :)

Start a new thread please.

Okey, Ill put in religion section with the title something like Crede will explain some things to me :)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Marauder
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10/5/2011 11:59:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 8:43:26 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm interested in engaging in a serious dialogue with Christians, Muslims, and Jews on DDO. Izbo is not welcome ITT.

Let's say it's taken as accepted that the universe required a supernatural first cause, and that that first cause is "God."

Once the logical necessity of God is acknowledged, how do you get from that to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism? Sure, you have scripture but in the case of the Old/New Testament conflict how do you absolutely prove that the New Testament or Qu'ran is divinely inspired?

look up Wesleyan Quadrilateral
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Mirza
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10/6/2011 5:07:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 9:37:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/5/2011 8:43:26 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm interested in engaging in a serious dialogue with Christians, Muslims, and Jews on DDO. Izbo is not welcome ITT.

Let's say it's taken as accepted that the universe required a supernatural first cause, and that that first cause is "God."

Once the logical necessity of God is acknowledged, how do you get from that to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism? Sure, you have scripture but in the case of the Old/New Testament conflict how do you absolutely prove that the New Testament or Qu'ran is divinely inspired?

What do you mean by "absolute proof"? Do you mean ironclad, incontrovertible, undoubtable evidence or an argument with the aforementioned traits? There isn't any and you're never going to find it and that mainly has to with our (humans) epistemic situation.

On which matters do you have "absolute proof" in the first place? Very, very few.
This. I don't think you can have absolute proof. That would mean you point at this proof and someone believes it immediately. If you mean strong proof, then we can argue.

As for why say, Islam is true, I've argued that many times.

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
izbo10
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10/6/2011 8:27:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/5/2011 8:52:10 PM, Crede wrote:
Well without making a book in this post here we go. If one can get to Theism there are ways to then get to another religion. For Christianity we have the NT. The fact that they are considered to be one of the most, if not thee most reliable historical document ever persevered in it's original writing says a lot about the Judeo-Christian religion. Then you have to consider if the writings are true. Many evidences are available to testify that Jesus is who the NT says he was. The resurrection being the key ingredient in the NT to be exact.




This is a great video to show how one can be led to Christianity. There are two parts to this video so make sure to watch both.

Actually not only have I watched the video, but i have read the ridiculous book they are based on. None of which I have done that recently. Craig is a moron, whose sole skill set is deceiving the gullible. He claims to be a philosopher, yet missed every single class on fallacies that was ever given.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.