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Devils, Demons and Intelligence

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 7:12:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?

I believe you may need a little background.
2/3 of the Angels with superior intelligence choose to follow God.

Satan's issue was not intellect but desire to be God. He felt he could beat God.

Hence the generation of the human race and the earth now in which Satan is the god of.

Demons do not serve Satan. They are the half angelic half human people who now wander the earth that were killed in Noah's flood. They are called Nephilim in Genesis 1:6 and throughout the Bible.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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10/11/2011 7:25:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:12:35 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?

I believe you may need a little background.
2/3 of the Angels with superior intelligence choose to follow God.

Satan's issue was not intellect but desire to be God. He felt he could beat God.

Hence the generation of the human race and the earth now in which Satan is the god of.

Demons do not serve Satan. They are the half angelic half human people who now wander the earth that were killed in Noah's flood. They are called Nephilim in Genesis 1:6 and throughout the Bible.

As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 7:42:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:25:46 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:12:35 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?

I believe you may need a little background.
2/3 of the Angels with superior intelligence choose to follow God.

Satan's issue was not intellect but desire to be God. He felt he could beat God.

Hence the generation of the human race and the earth now in which Satan is the god of.

Demons do not serve Satan. They are the half angelic half human people who now wander the earth that were killed in Noah's flood. They are called Nephilim in Genesis 1:6 and throughout the Bible.

As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning?

Depends on how you define the function of our cognitive facilities. Does a criminals greed overide his intelligence/reasoning?

And where did this desire come from?
Freewill
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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10/11/2011 7:54:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.

See Gil I knew you were going to answer free will, but re-read the persons question again. He didn't ask how can Satan choose to do bad (free will) he asked where the DESIRE came from in the first place from which he then used his free will to act on that desire.

See you can have Satan with free will without evil DESIRE, the question the person asked is where the DESIRE comes from.

Best not to think to much about such things, just throw out free will and move on eh ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
kohai
Posts: 380
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10/11/2011 7:54:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Devils don't exist...
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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10/11/2011 7:56:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
I have only one big question left myself.

It's fallen under the cushions of your couch.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
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Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 8:21:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:54:17 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.

See Gil I knew you were going to answer free will, but re-read the persons question again. He didn't ask how can Satan choose to do bad (free will) he asked where the DESIRE came from in the first place from which he then used his free will to act on that desire.

See you can have Satan with free will without evil DESIRE, the question the person asked is where the DESIRE comes from.

Best not to think to much about such things, just throw out free will and move on eh ?

Anything that is evil is held - as a perversion of what was once good.
Freewill allowed the "good" in Satan to be perverted.

To state God is to blame for perversion, is like stating the engineer of a car is to blame for drunk driving or vehicular manslaughter.

It is absolutely absurd as a suggestion.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 8:22:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 7:56:22 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
I have only one big question left myself.

It's fallen under the cushions of your couch.

MY BINKIE!!!! I FOUND IT!!!!
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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10/11/2011 8:25:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?

seriously a tire iron is more intelligent then you, you couldn't possibly be disappointed in that.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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10/11/2011 8:33:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 8:25:53 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?

seriously a tire iron is more intelligent then you, you couldn't possibly be disappointed in that.

??
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

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"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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10/11/2011 8:35:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 8:33:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:25:53 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 10/11/2011 4:20:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How intelligent is the devil? Is he more intelligent than me? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if he was not.

If he with his superior intelligence and personal experience of God ended up rejecting him, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not believe in him?

If the Devil with all his knowledge, having personally met the trinitarian God, did not recognise Jesus as God, is it really so bad or so hard to understand that I might not recognise Jesus as God?

If the Devil did not understand that the crucifixtion of Jesus would defeat him, is it so hard to understand that I don't get this either?

Why would demons possess people? And provide direct evidence of the efficacy of Christian rites? Surely they would never bother, or if they did... why are we all not believers?

seriously a tire iron is more intelligent then you, you couldn't possibly be disappointed in that.

??

yes because a tire iron is more intelligent then you, you don't get it.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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10/11/2011 8:36:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 8:21:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:54:17 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.

See Gil I knew you were going to answer free will, but re-read the persons question again. He didn't ask how can Satan choose to do bad (free will) he asked where the DESIRE came from in the first place from which he then used his free will to act on that desire.

See you can have Satan with free will without evil DESIRE, the question the person asked is where the DESIRE comes from.

Best not to think to much about such things, just throw out free will and move on eh ?

Anything that is evil is held - as a perversion of what was once good.
Freewill allowed the "good" in Satan to be perverted.

To state God is to blame for perversion, is like stating the engineer of a car is to blame for drunk driving or vehicular manslaughter.

It is absolutely absurd as a suggestion.

Fine gill, free will allowed an evil desire to be acted upon. Now answer the question where did the DESIRE come from, from which Satan choose to act on.

If you dodge this, your done Gil.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 8:46:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 8:36:03 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:21:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:54:17 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.

See Gil I knew you were going to answer free will, but re-read the persons question again. He didn't ask how can Satan choose to do bad (free will) he asked where the DESIRE came from in the first place from which he then used his free will to act on that desire.

See you can have Satan with free will without evil DESIRE, the question the person asked is where the DESIRE comes from.

Best not to think to much about such things, just throw out free will and move on eh ?

Anything that is evil is held - as a perversion of what was once good.
Freewill allowed the "good" in Satan to be perverted.

To state God is to blame for perversion, is like stating the engineer of a car is to blame for drunk driving or vehicular manslaughter.

It is absolutely absurd as a suggestion.

Fine gill, free will allowed an evil desire to be acted upon. Now answer the question where did the DESIRE come from, from which Satan choose to act on.

If you dodge this, your done Gil.

I thought I did answer the question.
Desire is good. Freewill perverted a good desire to a bad one.
The good desire was placed within all God's creatures. Through our Freewill we choose the perversion or the original good.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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10/11/2011 8:54:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 8:46:26 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:36:03 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:21:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:54:17 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.

See Gil I knew you were going to answer free will, but re-read the persons question again. He didn't ask how can Satan choose to do bad (free will) he asked where the DESIRE came from in the first place from which he then used his free will to act on that desire.

See you can have Satan with free will without evil DESIRE, the question the person asked is where the DESIRE comes from.

Best not to think to much about such things, just throw out free will and move on eh ?

Anything that is evil is held - as a perversion of what was once good.
Freewill allowed the "good" in Satan to be perverted.

To state God is to blame for perversion, is like stating the engineer of a car is to blame for drunk driving or vehicular manslaughter.

It is absolutely absurd as a suggestion.

Fine gill, free will allowed an evil desire to be acted upon. Now answer the question where did the DESIRE come from, from which Satan choose to act on.

If you dodge this, your done Gil.

I thought I did answer the question.
Desire is good. Freewill perverted a good desire to a bad one.
The good desire was placed within all God's creatures. Through our Freewill we choose the perversion or the original good.

See either you so blinded by your doctrines your just not getting it, or you do get it but are just delibertly avoiding it.

Step: 1 Satan has free will
Step 2: Satan has desire to do evil
Step 3: Satan cause of his free will + desire to do evil does evil

Free will doesn't cause evil desire, it only allows you to act on it.

The question is, where did the DESIRE to do evil come from.

If in your cute little story Satan is made at least "good" he doesn't have such evil desires cause satan is made good by God.

So Gil, where does the evil desire that Satan choose to act on come from ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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10/11/2011 9:16:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?

"Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will."

Psalms 103:20-21
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 9:25:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 8:54:21 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:46:26 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:36:03 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 8:21:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:54:17 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:43:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 7:30:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
As someone who has little theological background, can I ask this question: so if the devil's main problem was his desire to be god, did such a desire override his intelligence/reasoning? And where did this desire come from?

Best not to ask such questions. Just accept Satan as the bad guy ok.

God = Good, Satan = Bad

Any questions ? No you don't have any questions cause I just told you its better not to ask such questions.

Actually, Christianity loves questions and has the answer for near all of them. I have only one big question left myself.

See Gil I knew you were going to answer free will, but re-read the persons question again. He didn't ask how can Satan choose to do bad (free will) he asked where the DESIRE came from in the first place from which he then used his free will to act on that desire.

See you can have Satan with free will without evil DESIRE, the question the person asked is where the DESIRE comes from.

Best not to think to much about such things, just throw out free will and move on eh ?

Anything that is evil is held - as a perversion of what was once good.
Freewill allowed the "good" in Satan to be perverted.

To state God is to blame for perversion, is like stating the engineer of a car is to blame for drunk driving or vehicular manslaughter.

It is absolutely absurd as a suggestion.

Fine gill, free will allowed an evil desire to be acted upon. Now answer the question where did the DESIRE come from, from which Satan choose to act on.

If you dodge this, your done Gil.

I thought I did answer the question.
Desire is good. Freewill perverted a good desire to a bad one.
The good desire was placed within all God's creatures. Through our Freewill we choose the perversion or the original good.

See either you so blinded by your doctrines your just not getting it, or you do get it but are just delibertly avoiding it.

Step: 1 Satan has free will
Step 2: Satan has desire to do evil
Step 3: Satan cause of his free will + desire to do evil does evil

Free will doesn't cause evil desire, it only allows you to act on it.

The question is, where did the DESIRE to do evil come from.

If in your cute little story Satan is made at least "good" he doesn't have such evil desires cause satan is made good by God.

So Gil, where does the evil desire that Satan choose to act on come from ?

Freewill allows for good desires to be perverted.
I do not know why this is hard to track.

Good desire + Freewill allows for perversion.

Lets try a thinking excersise:

There is nothing wrong with "desiring" a woman.
It is something good that God intended.

How did you get to a point where you "desire" little girls?
How about you "desiring" little boys?

Nothing about this culture or families or anything supports such a concept.
What puts these desires for innappropriate things in peoples hearts?

Certianly not parents, culture or educational system.

Now the desire is one thing, but imagine how different it is to desire something and how different it is to act on that desire.

How sin comes is through a thought, then grows and is fed by the person who harbors the thought. Certainly a person who becomes a pedophile goes to great lengths to foster such thinking and then to even go so far as to act upon it.

When you spend a few years contemplating the innerworkings of people and evil you will begin to understand how Satan choose to misplace a good desire with a bad one then even went so far as to begin in small ways to act upon that evil desire.

The good and freewill originated with God. Sin is the absence of the good.
Gileandos
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10/11/2011 9:27:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:16:47 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?

"Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will."

Psalms 103:20-21

How does that verse teach that there is no free will of the Angels?
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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10/11/2011 9:28:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:27:07 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:16:47 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?

"Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will."

Psalms 103:20-21

How does that verse teach that there is no free will of the Angels?

Angels obey God because that is their nature, no? They are his servants, and his praisers in Heaven. God has already deemed them worthy of Heaven, so they must be without sin. As you said yourself, sin and free will are things that go together (not that we can't be redeemed of sin, according to Christianity).
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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10/11/2011 9:29:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:16:47 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?

"Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will."

Psalms 103:20-21

I was actually taught the same thing as Torres when I was a Catholic.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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10/11/2011 9:31:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:25:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:

Freewill allows for good desires to be perverted.

But isn't that the fault of the agent? Of his will?
I do not know why this is hard to track.

Good desire + Freewill allows for perversion.

Lets try a thinking excersise:

There is nothing wrong with "desiring" a woman.
It is something good that God intended.

How did you get to a point where you "desire" little girls?
How about you "desiring" little boys?

Are you saying it's because of Satan that our desires are twisted? How?

Nothing about this culture or families or anything supports such a concept.
What puts these desires for innappropriate things in peoples hearts?

Certianly not parents, culture or educational system.

Then what is it?

Now the desire is one thing, but imagine how different it is to desire something and how different it is to act on that desire.

But isn't all seen by the eyes of God? He would know our desires as well as our actions. If our desires are perverted, is it still not a perverted action to THINK it?

How sin comes is through a thought, then grows and is fed by the person who harbors the thought. Certainly a person who becomes a pedophile goes to great lengths to foster such thinking and then to even go so far as to act upon it.

When you spend a few years contemplating the innerworkings of people and evil you will begin to understand how Satan choose to misplace a good desire with a bad one then even went so far as to begin in small ways to act upon that evil desire.

But how does Satan put evil desires in our heart? He certainly isn't not "inside"of us like God. I've never understood how Satan supposedly "works" against us. It's not like anyone claims to see his actions.

The good and freewill originated with God. Sin is the absence of the good.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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10/11/2011 9:33:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Gileandos, do you support Aquina's statement on how angels might sin in his Theologica?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
M.Torres
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10/11/2011 9:34:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:33:40 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Gileandos, do you support Aquina's statement on how angels might sin in his Theologica?

Care to explain?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/11/2011 9:39:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:28:50 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:27:07 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:16:47 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?

"Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will."

Psalms 103:20-21

How does that verse teach that there is no free will of the Angels?

Angels obey God because that is their nature, no? They are his servants, and his praisers in Heaven. God has already deemed them worthy of Heaven, so they must be without sin. As you said yourself, sin and free will are things that go together (not that we can't be redeemed of sin, according to Christianity).

Your response seems to indicate to me that you are choosing to read a presupposition into the verse?

None of those words indicate the lack of free will.
We know that Angels have free will for several reasons.
1. Satan choose against God
2. One third of the Angels choose against God.
3. The Watchers were disobedient.
Gileandos
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10/11/2011 9:42:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 9:29:21 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:16:47 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:10:59 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/11/2011 9:01:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I thought free will was God's gift to man. Angels weren't given this gift. They are meant to obey God completely. Which is why I never understood Lucifer's fall completely.

That is not Christian theology. Who taught you that?

"Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will."

Psalms 103:20-21

I was actually taught the same thing as Torres when I was a Catholic.

There are alot of "different" teachings within our church that are from lay understandings. The book of Jude was pretty clear that the watchers choose to have relations with women and are now being punished for that choice.