Total Posts:89|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Do atheists feel free in atheism?

GodSands
Posts: 2,843
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I with two of my friends the other night, one of which got a bit drunk, and after he told me a bit of a secret that has impacted his life some what, he confessed that his atheistic belief that God does not exist gives him comfort in his times of need.

The comfort comes when an atheist can taken security in themselves and get enjoyment out of it. For example, if someone had some disease, and they knew that they would die from it in a number of years time, instead of turning to God and believe that they will go to heaven when they die, the atheist will instead have the confidence to in him or her self to say, "I'm going to make the most of my remaining life, I will enjoy myself as best I can and live life the way I want before I die." And in that, comfort is found in the excitement of the days to come for the atheist.

My atheist friend continued to drink as he explained his comfort in atheism. Shortly after his explanation he ended up smashing a wine glass with his hand and cutting him self, while also aggressively tipping over his coffee table and kicking a vase.

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 10:17:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:
Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

Right.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
kohai
Posts: 380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 10:18:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When I apostasised from Christianity, my soul was liberated.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 10:24:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You equated comfort in the absence of God with the comfort of pleasure. Those are two different things.

You get comfort in thinking that in the next life you and God will be like so cool and the best of buddies living in a paradise, and people who don't believe, think, act as you see fit will get theirs, yeah get theirs in an eternal hell, yeah that'll show em.

The accusation you believe xzy cause it's desirable to ones self works both ways.

Here is a speck, here is a log, enjoy.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 11:29:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:18:55 PM, kohai wrote:
When I apostasised from Christianity, my soul was liberated.

You escaped a cage into a larger cage, but you're so stupid that you haven't realized that you're in another cage.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 11:31:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:29:34 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:18:55 PM, kohai wrote:
When I apostasised from Christianity, my soul was liberated.

You escaped a cage into a larger cage, but your mind is not progressed to the point in which you realize that you're in another cage. Its just a matter of time with the right attitude before you have another epiphany and become like Cosmic.

That was a bit harsh. I'l fix it.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 11:38:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:28:53 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

Define god.

The Supreme and Ultimate reality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 11:51:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:38:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:28:53 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

Define god.

The Supreme and Ultimate reality.

Impossible to know if one exists or to know if you are existing on that plateau.
kogline
Posts: 134
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 11:55:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

i don't know if your joking, but i actually feel this way lol.

when i first became agnostic i felt very liberated and comforted(the idea of eternity scared the crap out of me even if i made it to heaven, still does) but i did grow up with the concept of hell and that sometimes haunts me, to think that if i'm wrong i could pay for it forever. this interferes with some of my hedonistic pursuits, if i spend my time playing an online game that makes me happy will it be held against me that i could have been out feeding the poor or other charitable things?

so the main thing that diminishes my liberty and happiness in agnosticism is leftover stuff from my religious days. if i knew that no matter what i was just going to end up in the ground with no conscious thought after i died, i think i would be much happier individual.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2011 11:57:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:51:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:38:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:28:53 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

Define god.

The Supreme and Ultimate reality.

Impossible to know if one exists or to know if you are existing on that plateau.

Denying the fact that there is existence is rather silly, as existence is pretty self evident. The fact that you are able to perceive an existence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is an existence.

Certainly we all exist in some form or another, but I'm not talking about personal existence. I'm talking about total objective existence. I'm talking about actuality.

Whether or not we perceive it accurately is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, it is there, and it is plainly there. To deny existence is rather ludicrous.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 12:05:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:57:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:51:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:38:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:28:53 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

Define god.

The Supreme and Ultimate reality.

Impossible to know if one exists or to know if you are existing on that plateau.

Denying the fact that there is existence is rather silly, as existence is pretty self evident. The fact that you are able to perceive an existence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is an existence.

Certainly we all exist in some form or another, but I'm not talking about personal existence. I'm talking about total objective existence. I'm talking about actuality.

Whether or not we perceive it accurately is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, it is there, and it is plainly there. To deny existence is rather ludicrous.

I'm not denying reality. I'm denying its importance, as you stated "supreme, ultimate".
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 12:42:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 12:05:49 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:57:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:51:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:38:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:28:53 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

Define god.

The Supreme and Ultimate reality.

Impossible to know if one exists or to know if you are existing on that plateau.

Denying the fact that there is existence is rather silly, as existence is pretty self evident. The fact that you are able to perceive an existence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is an existence.

Certainly we all exist in some form or another, but I'm not talking about personal existence. I'm talking about total objective existence. I'm talking about actuality.

Whether or not we perceive it accurately is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, it is there, and it is plainly there. To deny existence is rather ludicrous.


I'm not denying reality. I'm denying its importance, as you stated "supreme, ultimate".

By "supreme, ultimate", I mean total objective reality, what I would call "actuality", the way things actually are.

Truly, it is the greatest authority there is.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
googlemabob
Posts: 16
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 4:29:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:55:27 PM, kogline wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

i don't know if your joking, but i actually feel this way lol.

when i first became agnostic i felt very liberated and comforted(the idea of eternity scared the crap out of me even if i made it to heaven, still does) but i did grow up with the concept of hell and that sometimes haunts me, to think that if i'm wrong i could pay for it forever. this interferes with some of my hedonistic pursuits, if i spend my time playing an online game that makes me happy will it be held against me that i could have been out feeding the poor or other charitable things?

so the main thing that diminishes my liberty and happiness in agnosticism is leftover stuff from my religious days. if i knew that no matter what i was just going to end up in the ground with no conscious thought after i died, i think i would be much happier individual.

See, I've been confronted by the same fears before but the way I look at it is this: I feel that I am, essentially, a fairly decent person, undeserving of eternal punishment in the fires of hell. So, any god petty enough to send me to eternal damnation of that kind for the relatively minor sins in my life is a god I wouldn't want to worship in the first place.
kogline
Posts: 134
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 4:42:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 4:29:28 AM, googlemabob wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:55:27 PM, kogline wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

i don't know if your joking, but i actually feel this way lol.

when i first became agnostic i felt very liberated and comforted(the idea of eternity scared the crap out of me even if i made it to heaven, still does) but i did grow up with the concept of hell and that sometimes haunts me, to think that if i'm wrong i could pay for it forever. this interferes with some of my hedonistic pursuits, if i spend my time playing an online game that makes me happy will it be held against me that i could have been out feeding the poor or other charitable things?

so the main thing that diminishes my liberty and happiness in agnosticism is leftover stuff from my religious days. if i knew that no matter what i was just going to end up in the ground with no conscious thought after i died, i think i would be much happier individual.

See, I've been confronted by the same fears before but the way I look at it is this: I feel that I am, essentially, a fairly decent person, undeserving of eternal punishment in the fires of hell. So, any god petty enough to send me to eternal damnation of that kind for the relatively minor sins in my life is a god I wouldn't want to worship in the first place.

i agree, but it is still a disconcerting scenario. my mom asked me if some of my anxiety could be from not being right with god, and i said i would never be right with him until he stops sending people to hell. it seems wrong to me to punish finite sins with infinite punishment.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 5:34:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:31:01 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:29:34 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:18:55 PM, kohai wrote:
When I apostasised from Christianity, my soul was liberated.

You escaped a cage into a larger cage, but your mind is not progressed to the point in which you realize that you're in another cage. Its just a matter of time with the right attitude before you have another epiphany and become like Cosmic.

Cosmic has what I like to call a "false-realization," a simplification of life that simply does not exist, but merely serves as a way to give one the ultimate sense of understanding. Life is not a phenomenon that can be understood, and anyone claiming the condescending position of superior understanding, has plainly deluded himself. We know one thing, that we know nothing.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 6:17:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 4:42:20 AM, kogline wrote:
At 10/18/2011 4:29:28 AM, googlemabob wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:55:27 PM, kogline wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

i don't know if your joking, but i actually feel this way lol.

when i first became agnostic i felt very liberated and comforted(the idea of eternity scared the crap out of me even if i made it to heaven, still does) but i did grow up with the concept of hell and that sometimes haunts me, to think that if i'm wrong i could pay for it forever. this interferes with some of my hedonistic pursuits, if i spend my time playing an online game that makes me happy will it be held against me that i could have been out feeding the poor or other charitable things?

so the main thing that diminishes my liberty and happiness in agnosticism is leftover stuff from my religious days. if i knew that no matter what i was just going to end up in the ground with no conscious thought after i died, i think i would be much happier individual.

See, I've been confronted by the same fears before but the way I look at it is this: I feel that I am, essentially, a fairly decent person, undeserving of eternal punishment in the fires of hell. So, any god petty enough to send me to eternal damnation of that kind for the relatively minor sins in my life is a god I wouldn't want to worship in the first place.

i agree, but it is still a disconcerting scenario. my mom asked me if some of my anxiety could be from not being right with god, and i said i would never be right with him until he stops sending people to hell. it seems wrong to me to punish finite sins with infinite punishment.

What answer would there be to the question; why does God send people to hell for their sin?

God doesn't send people to hell so much based on what they have done, but based more on who they have committed the sin against. And people commit sin against God, an infinite, everlasting God, and so, that is why the punishment is so great, because sin is committed against a God that is just that, great. You sin against an everlasting God, you endure and everlasting hell. Today's world works in the same way, if you murdered your neighbours dog, you would be punished a little, maybe sent to jail or fined, perhaps both, but if your murdered your human neighbour you will surely face life in jail.

Saying hell isn't a fair punishment is like saying jail isn't fair also to a deserving crime to a worldly judge. The only differences is that God is infinitely worthy and the law isn't, but the same principle is applied, you commit the crime, you pay the time. So when one sins against God they sin against Him, His own standard that is Himself, and when one sins as if it were, against the law, they sin against it's standard.

As if the law on earth is a demo of God's standard. You know when you play a demo of some game, that you don't get the full experience of the game but you get a feel for what the game is like? Yeah, justice, law and punishment is the same in relation to God .
googlemabob
Posts: 16
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 8:33:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 6:17:52 AM, GodSands wrote:


What answer would there be to the question; why does God send people to hell for their sin?

God doesn't send people to hell so much based on what they have done, but based more on who they have committed the sin against. And people commit sin against God, an infinite, everlasting God, and so, that is why the punishment is so great, because sin is committed against a God that is just that, great. You sin against an everlasting God, you endure and everlasting hell. Today's world works in the same way, if you murdered your neighbours dog, you would be punished a little, maybe sent to jail or fined, perhaps both, but if your murdered your human neighbour you will surely face life in jail.

Saying hell isn't a fair punishment is like saying jail isn't fair also to a deserving crime to a worldly judge. The only differences is that God is infinitely worthy and the law isn't, but the same principle is applied, you commit the crime, you pay the time. So when one sins against God they sin against Him, His own standard that is Himself, and when one sins as if it were, against the law, they sin against it's standard.

As if the law on earth is a demo of God's standard. You know when you play a demo of some game, that you don't get the full experience of the game but you get a feel for what the game is like? Yeah, justice, law and punishment is the same in relation to God .

Like kogline said, man is finite, so punishing him with infinite punishment is unfair. If people sin against God, it is only because we have such a limited view point, or we our world view is so deluded that it is what we think is the best for our happiness at the time. This is why I'm a Buddhist and not a Christian: Buddhism takes the view that people do wrong simply because they are ignorant of what is truly right, not because the person doing wrong is inherently an evil person deserving of eternal punishment. Like I said, any God that would damn such a person for acting out as they thought best at the time, especially when that God is responsible for such a limiting world view, is kind of petty, and not worthy of my worship.
kogline
Posts: 134
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 9:45:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 8:33:54 AM, googlemabob wrote:
At 10/18/2011 6:17:52 AM, GodSands wrote:


What answer would there be to the question; why does God send people to hell for their sin?

God doesn't send people to hell so much based on what they have done, but based more on who they have committed the sin against. And people commit sin against God, an infinite, everlasting God, and so, that is why the punishment is so great, because sin is committed against a God that is just that, great. You sin against an everlasting God, you endure and everlasting hell. Today's world works in the same way, if you murdered your neighbours dog, you would be punished a little, maybe sent to jail or fined, perhaps both, but if your murdered your human neighbour you will surely face life in jail.

Saying hell isn't a fair punishment is like saying jail isn't fair also to a deserving crime to a worldly judge. The only differences is that God is infinitely worthy and the law isn't, but the same principle is applied, you commit the crime, you pay the time. So when one sins against God they sin against Him, His own standard that is Himself, and when one sins as if it were, against the law, they sin against it's standard.

As if the law on earth is a demo of God's standard. You know when you play a demo of some game, that you don't get the full experience of the game but you get a feel for what the game is like? Yeah, justice, law and punishment is the same in relation to God .

Like kogline said, man is finite, so punishing him with infinite punishment is unfair. If people sin against God, it is only because we have such a limited view point, or we our world view is so deluded that it is what we think is the best for our happiness at the time. This is why I'm a Buddhist and not a Christian: Buddhism takes the view that people do wrong simply because they are ignorant of what is truly right, not because the person doing wrong is inherently an evil person deserving of eternal punishment. Like I said, any God that would damn such a person for acting out as they thought best at the time, especially when that God is responsible for such a limiting world view, is kind of petty, and not worthy of my worship.

i think this was what i was trying to describe earlier, not knowing what is right.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 10:30:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

This reminds me of a quote I once heard: "is the reason we become closer to God once we die...because we no longer exist?"
devinni01841
Posts: 1,405
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 11:59:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Define "free". It doesn't make a difference except that I do nice things because I want to, not because I'm afraid Jesus will throw me into the fiery pits of Hades if I don't. And the only thing weighing on my conscience when I'm rude to people is ... well my own conscience.

I feel like only having to answer to my self is a bit liberating, but it's not like when I became an atheist I had a burden lifted from my back or anything.
There is nothing more bad-@ss than being yourself.

I solemnly swear I am up to no good.

Member of the Texas Army National Guard since 20111212

An Armed society is a polite society.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 1:13:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:
I with two of my friends the other night, one of which got a bit drunk, and after he told me a bit of a secret that has impacted his life some what, he confessed that his atheistic belief that God does not exist gives him comfort in his times of need.

The comfort comes when an atheist can taken security in themselves and get enjoyment out of it. For example, if someone had some disease, and they knew that they would die from it in a number of years time, instead of turning to God and believe that they will go to heaven when they die, the atheist will instead have the confidence to in him or her self to say, "I'm going to make the most of my remaining life, I will enjoy myself as best I can and live life the way I want before I die." And in that, comfort is found in the excitement of the days to come for the atheist.

My atheist friend continued to drink as he explained his comfort in atheism. Shortly after his explanation he ended up smashing a wine glass with his hand and cutting him self, while also aggressively tipping over his coffee table and kicking a vase.

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

How is hedonism an escape from the philosophical conundrums of existence?

Either your atheist friends have not thought their position out or you simply have no met enough atheists.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 1:18:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 5:34:38 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:31:01 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:29:34 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:18:55 PM, kohai wrote:
When I apostasised from Christianity, my soul was liberated.

You escaped a cage into a larger cage, but your mind is not progressed to the point in which you realize that you're in another cage. Its just a matter of time with the right attitude before you have another epiphany and become like Cosmic.

Cosmic has what I like to call a "false-realization," a simplification of life that simply does not exist, but merely serves as a way to give one the ultimate sense of understanding. Life is not a phenomenon that can be understood, and anyone claiming the condescending position of superior understanding, has plainly deluded himself. We know one thing, that we know nothing.

If you understood half of the things I'd say, you'd realize that I'm not what you think, and I'm actually more in line with what you are saying right now.

Despite what people may think, my position when it comes to ultimate reality is sculpted by a knowledge of my own epistemelogical limitations, and an abandoning of pretension.

I've said this before, but it is impossible to hold a position that abandons all pretenses without appearing to be pretentious.

What is condescending about stating that existence is god? There is one thing that everyone, even a solipsist could agree on, and that is that there is existence in some form.

Even "non-existent" things exist on the virtual level. The theistic conception of God for example, even if it doesn't "exist", it still "exists" on a virtual level within the minds of those who believe it or have thought of it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 1:20:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Of course, claiming to abandon all pretensions definitely comes off as pretentious, but you get what I'm saying, right?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Diagoras
Posts: 187
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 1:47:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:
I with two of my friends the other night, one of which got a bit drunk, and after he told me a bit of a secret that has impacted his life some what, he confessed that his atheistic belief that God does not exist gives him comfort in his times of need.

The comfort comes when an atheist can taken security in themselves and get enjoyment out of it. For example, if someone had some disease, and they knew that they would die from it in a number of years time, instead of turning to God and believe that they will go to heaven when they die, the atheist will instead have the confidence to in him or her self to say, "I'm going to make the most of my remaining life, I will enjoy myself as best I can and live life the way I want before I die." And in that, comfort is found in the excitement of the days to come for the atheist.

My atheist friend continued to drink as he explained his comfort in atheism. Shortly after his explanation he ended up smashing a wine glass with his hand and cutting him self, while also aggressively tipping over his coffee table and kicking a vase.

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

It's very comforting. I feel bad for all the adults that believe in myths and fairytales. If an adult said that they still believed that Santa visited them every christmas and gave them presents. Or adults that believe the tooth fairy still visits them. Ignorace is bliss, but as someone else said, enlightenment is liberating.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 7:41:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 8:33:54 AM, googlemabob wrote:
At 10/18/2011 6:17:52 AM, GodSands wrote:


What answer would there be to the question; why does God send people to hell for their sin?

God doesn't send people to hell so much based on what they have done, but based more on who they have committed the sin against. And people commit sin against God, an infinite, everlasting God, and so, that is why the punishment is so great, because sin is committed against a God that is just that, great. You sin against an everlasting God, you endure and everlasting hell. Today's world works in the same way, if you murdered your neighbours dog, you would be punished a little, maybe sent to jail or fined, perhaps both, but if your murdered your human neighbour you will surely face life in jail.

Saying hell isn't a fair punishment is like saying jail isn't fair also to a deserving crime to a worldly judge. The only differences is that God is infinitely worthy and the law isn't, but the same principle is applied, you commit the crime, you pay the time. So when one sins against God they sin against Him, His own standard that is Himself, and when one sins as if it were, against the law, they sin against it's standard.

As if the law on earth is a demo of God's standard. You know when you play a demo of some game, that you don't get the full experience of the game but you get a feel for what the game is like? Yeah, justice, law and punishment is the same in relation to God .

Like kogline said, man is finite, so punishing him with infinite punishment is unfair. If people sin against God, it is only because we have such a limited view point, or we our world view is so deluded that it is what we think is the best for our happiness at the time. This is why I'm a Buddhist and not a Christian: Buddhism takes the view that people do wrong simply because they are ignorant of what is truly right, not because the person doing wrong is inherently an evil person deserving of eternal punishment. Like I said, any God that would damn such a person for acting out as they thought best at the time, especially when that God is responsible for such a limiting world view, is kind of petty, and not worthy of my worship.

Another reply from the source of ignorance. The body of man is finite and that dies, by the spirit, that we all have, is not finite. Our bodies are not punished in hell for they are dead, but instead our soul and spirit is. Therefore, as we have spirits that maintain a soul, punishment that is everlasting is necessary. If we continue on forever once our bodies are dead, then either one fate can be justified in relation of what we deserve. For example, if I go to hell for 10,000 years, then go to heaven, then really I am not being punished because I will be in heaven forever. And the reality that I was in hell at one point will one day no longer exist, due to it being drowned out by the eternal heaven I am in.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 7:43:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 7:41:45 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/18/2011 8:33:54 AM, googlemabob wrote:
At 10/18/2011 6:17:52 AM, GodSands wrote:


What answer would there be to the question; why does God send people to hell for their sin?

God doesn't send people to hell so much based on what they have done, but based more on who they have committed the sin against. And people commit sin against God, an infinite, everlasting God, and so, that is why the punishment is so great, because sin is committed against a God that is just that, great. You sin against an everlasting God, you endure and everlasting hell. Today's world works in the same way, if you murdered your neighbours dog, you would be punished a little, maybe sent to jail or fined, perhaps both, but if your murdered your human neighbour you will surely face life in jail.

Saying hell isn't a fair punishment is like saying jail isn't fair also to a deserving crime to a worldly judge. The only differences is that God is infinitely worthy and the law isn't, but the same principle is applied, you commit the crime, you pay the time. So when one sins against God they sin against Him, His own standard that is Himself, and when one sins as if it were, against the law, they sin against it's standard.

As if the law on earth is a demo of God's standard. You know when you play a demo of some game, that you don't get the full experience of the game but you get a feel for what the game is like? Yeah, justice, law and punishment is the same in relation to God .

Like kogline said, man is finite, so punishing him with infinite punishment is unfair. If people sin against God, it is only because we have such a limited view point, or we our world view is so deluded that it is what we think is the best for our happiness at the time. This is why I'm a Buddhist and not a Christian: Buddhism takes the view that people do wrong simply because they are ignorant of what is truly right, not because the person doing wrong is inherently an evil person deserving of eternal punishment. Like I said, any God that would damn such a person for acting out as they thought best at the time, especially when that God is responsible for such a limiting world view, is kind of petty, and not worthy of my worship.

Another reply from the source of ignorance. The body of man is finite and that dies, by the spirit, that we all have, is not finite. Our bodies are not punished in hell for they are dead, but instead our soul and spirit is. Therefore, as we have spirits that maintain a soul, punishment that is everlasting is necessary. If we continue on forever once our bodies are dead, then either one fate can be justified in relation of what we deserve. For example, if I go to hell for 10,000 years, then go to heaven, then really I am not being punished because I will be in heaven forever. And the reality that I was in hell at one point will one day no longer exist, due to it being drowned out by the eternal heaven I am in.

No more than 11 months actually.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
reasonable75
Posts: 211
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 7:59:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/18/2011 6:17:52 AM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/18/2011 4:42:20 AM, kogline wrote:
At 10/18/2011 4:29:28 AM, googlemabob wrote:
At 10/17/2011 11:55:27 PM, kogline wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:30:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I feel closer to god as an atheist than I ever did as a theist.

i don't know if your joking, but i actually feel this way lol.

when i first became agnostic i felt very liberated and comforted(the idea of eternity scared the crap out of me even if i made it to heaven, still does) but i did grow up with the concept of hell and that sometimes haunts me, to think that if i'm wrong i could pay for it forever. this interferes with some of my hedonistic pursuits, if i spend my time playing an online game that makes me happy will it be held against me that i could have been out feeding the poor or other charitable things?

so the main thing that diminishes my liberty and happiness in agnosticism is leftover stuff from my religious days. if i knew that no matter what i was just going to end up in the ground with no conscious thought after i died, i think i would be much happier individual.

See, I've been confronted by the same fears before but the way I look at it is this: I feel that I am, essentially, a fairly decent person, undeserving of eternal punishment in the fires of hell. So, any god petty enough to send me to eternal damnation of that kind for the relatively minor sins in my life is a god I wouldn't want to worship in the first place.

i agree, but it is still a disconcerting scenario. my mom asked me if some of my anxiety could be from not being right with god, and i said i would never be right with him until he stops sending people to hell. it seems wrong to me to punish finite sins with infinite punishment.

What answer would there be to the question; why does God send people to hell for their sin?

God doesn't send people to hell so much based on what they have done, but based more on who they have committed the sin against. And people commit sin against God, an infinite, everlasting God, and so, that is why the punishment is so great, because sin is committed against a God that is just that, great. You sin against an everlasting God, you endure and everlasting hell. Today's world works in the same way, if you murdered your neighbours dog, you would be punished a little, maybe sent to jail or fined, perhaps both, but if your murdered your human neighbour you will surely face life in jail.

Saying hell isn't a fair punishment is like saying jail isn't fair also to a deserving crime to a worldly judge. The only differences is that God is infinitely worthy and the law isn't, but the same principle is applied, you commit the crime, you pay the time. So when one sins against God they sin against Him, His own standard that is Himself, and when one sins as if it were, against the law, they sin against it's standard.

As if the law on earth is a demo of God's standard. You know when you play a demo of some game, that you don't get the full experience of the game but you get a feel for what the game is like? Yeah, justice, law and punishment is the same in relation to God .

So you think an atheist should go to hell for simply not believing?
"There's a false assumption about science operating here. Science is not in principle committed to the idea that there's no after-life, or that the mind is identical to the brain, or that materialism is true. Science is completely open to whatever in fact is true." - Sam Harris

jimtimmy wrote:
"Look at me look at me look at me! I am a scary racist... trololololol. Oh noes somene is holding me to account for my sh1t."

Cerebral_Narcissist: "Cool story bro."
rogue
Posts: 2,325
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2011 11:35:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:
I with two of my friends the other night, one of which got a bit drunk, and after he told me a bit of a secret that has impacted his life some what, he confessed that his atheistic belief that God does not exist gives him comfort in his times of need.

The comfort comes when an atheist can taken security in themselves and get enjoyment out of it. For example, if someone had some disease, and they knew that they would die from it in a number of years time, instead of turning to God and believe that they will go to heaven when they die, the atheist will instead have the confidence to in him or her self to say, "I'm going to make the most of my remaining life, I will enjoy myself as best I can and live life the way I want before I die." And in that, comfort is found in the excitement of the days to come for the atheist.

My atheist friend continued to drink as he explained his comfort in atheism. Shortly after his explanation he ended up smashing a wine glass with his hand and cutting him self, while also aggressively tipping over his coffee table and kicking a vase.

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

Ok you've assumed your friend gets the comfort from sin. Also you assume all atheists gain comfort from that? I would feel much more comfortable if there really was a God and the good are rewarded and the evil were punished and there's an afterlife and life has meaning. That doesn't make it true. When I was at my saddest, when I was in the psych ward, I convinced myself that God was real and that he wanted me to be in there and get better. But it was really just because I felt so alone and needed comfort. God is a comfort mechanism. Accepting the truth about life is brave and hard to do.