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Prayer and the POE

seraine
Posts: 734
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10/19/2011 3:04:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If god is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient, why does he deny people's prayers that are for good outcomes (i.e. save a life, help someone)? This is just so there is no wiggling out of it by saying that god respects free will.
Diagoras
Posts: 187
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10/19/2011 3:28:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 3:09:45 PM, googlemabob wrote:
Perhaps God doesn't answer these prayers so that greater good can occur in the future.

I've never understood this argument by christians. If that was the case, then god has been steering us towards the "greatest" good and that means that this is the best there possibly is for this time frame. No other timeline would have been better. Had Hitler died in ww1, the world would somehow be a worse place than now. Basically, what those people are saying is that the holocaust was ultimately the best thing that could have happened.

yep, that's religious logic.


Or perhaps he does not exist at all.

*cough-true-cough*
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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10/19/2011 3:54:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 3:04:56 PM, seraine wrote:
If god is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient, why does he deny people's prayers that are for good outcomes (i.e. save a life, help someone)? This is just so there is no wiggling out of it by saying that god respects free will.

Come on prayer works, until it doesn't, then its free will.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
seraine
Posts: 734
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10/19/2011 6:45:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 3:44:12 PM, innomen wrote:
Generally there is a caveat that i tag on: "if it be thy will".

If he's omnibenevolent, he should want to help everyone, correct?
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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10/19/2011 6:47:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 3:44:12 PM, innomen wrote:
Generally there is a caveat that i tag on: "if it be thy will".

The old trick of making every possible outcome confirm your belief. When the reality is that is clearly not what jesus stats in the bible.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/19/2011 7:23:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Maybe god isn't omni-benevolent, but is instead ALL GOOD, which means something completely different unless you stubbornly cling to juvenile conceptions of morality that have little to do with how God operates.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
seraine
Posts: 734
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10/19/2011 8:55:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 7:23:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Maybe god isn't omni-benevolent, but is instead ALL GOOD, which means something completely different unless you stubbornly cling to juvenile conceptions of morality that have little to do with how God operates.

Explain plz?
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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10/19/2011 9:09:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 3:09:45 PM, googlemabob wrote:
Perhaps God doesn't answer these prayers so that greater good can occur in the future.
What good could come out of dying? It sure isn't good for the person suffering in the hospital.

Or perhaps he does not exist at all.

TRUE!
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/19/2011 9:21:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 8:55:45 PM, seraine wrote:
At 10/19/2011 7:23:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Maybe god isn't omni-benevolent, but is instead ALL GOOD, which means something completely different unless you stubbornly cling to juvenile conceptions of morality that have little to do with how God operates.

Explain plz?

Good as in, well founded, true, and right.

Now some people still cling to these moral systems without even realizing what they mean.

Morality is defined by most as "what you aught to do", but this is not a complete statement. Aught to do for what? In most moral systems, this is "What you aught to do for the benefit of yourself and others", and depending on your moral system, you might put more emphasis on the "self" or "others". The fact is, these moral systems are relativistic by nature, and can't be completely objective... And yes, you can get really complicated with morality, where there is no code, and it is pretty much based on probability and such, but the closest you are going to get is "objective from a relative standpoint", you aren't going to get total objectivity.

It is impossible to place our standard of morality on God without it being absurd. God does not operate on the same plane as us. People claim to know "God's law", but truly, God's law is manifest in the laws of the universe itself. The very things that make actuality are God's laws.

If God is defined as being all-good, it only makes sense if everything is good. Everything you see is the will of god, and it is good. Humans are overly self important though, and like to think of themselves as being special, when really we are not. Why would God feel anything but cold indifference to us? God is a being of cold hard law.

The virtual world that our minds operate in is like a world onto itself. It is still dictated and controlled by the God That Exists As Actuality, and is part of it, but it is like a part onto its own. People mistake the God of this world as the supreme being, when in fact, it is a God of fantasy, it is a phantom that only exists in our mind. Through this God of Fantasy, concepts that are patently absurd to the Objective God make sense. This God of Fantasy is one that creates a grid over reality that is used to fit the absurdities in nicely.

The God of Fantasy, like all grids we place over reality, is little more than a game, but people who take the game too seriously end up being rather poor sports to those who don't take it as seriously.

Truly though, God is neither all good, nor all bad. God is not even both. God just is. How you view God is entirely a reflection of your own state of mind. Whether or not you are even able to use that word to describe it is a reflection of your own state of mind.

The first verse of the Tao Te Ching (a rather spiffy book of riddles and ancient Chinese wisdom, ho ho) adequately explains what I am talking about.

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders"
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
seraine
Posts: 734
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10/21/2011 5:54:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 4:06:43 PM, WriterSelbe wrote:
God's an (insert profanity here) sometimes. Let's eat pie.

Since you used an, which means that the next word must begin with a vowel, we can deduce that you meant *sshole/*ss because no other swear words begin with a vowel. Logic!