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Catholics How does prayer to the Saints work?

Marauder
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10/20/2011 12:50:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have a question for the Catholics on this sight, I am honestly curious about the specifics.

How does one have the saints pray intercessory prayer on your behalf? like if I wanted Saint George the dragon slayer or Saint Ignatius of Loyola to pray my prayer on my behalf how do I phrase that prayer?

like if I wanted to pray for the healing of someone I know. Lets say I cant bring myself to pray for there healing directly from me, through Jesus, then to God because lately I have been feeling like though I still have faith God listens to other peoples prayers he just dosent hear mine. But I do think maybe a Saint would have better faith than me to give the prayer. It seems like in the bible people would often seek out God's servants most renowned for there faith and ask them to pray to god for them. Do I go "Dear venerated Saint Ignatius; could you please pray in my place to God for my friend to be healed from there affliction? and do this in Jesus name of course Amen?"

Is that how prayer to the Saints is supposed to work or is my understanding off?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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10/20/2011 9:26:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 12:50:36 PM, Marauder wrote:
I have a question for the Catholics on this sight, I am honestly curious about the specifics.

How does one have the saints pray intercessory prayer on your behalf? like if I wanted Saint George the dragon slayer or Saint Ignatius of Loyola to pray my prayer on my behalf how do I phrase that prayer?

like if I wanted to pray for the healing of someone I know. Lets say I cant bring myself to pray for there healing directly from me, through Jesus, then to God because lately I have been feeling like though I still have faith God listens to other peoples prayers he just dosent hear mine. But I do think maybe a Saint would have better faith than me to give the prayer. It seems like in the bible people would often seek out God's servants most renowned for there faith and ask them to pray to god for them. Do I go "Dear venerated Saint Ignatius; could you please pray in my place to God for my friend to be healed from there affliction? and do this in Jesus name of course Amen?"

Is that how prayer to the Saints is supposed to work or is my understanding off?

Have you ever asked a fellow Christian to pray for you? It works exactly the same way.

Here's an example.

When I found out my grandpa was in the hospital and in critical condition I.

1. Dropped to my knees and asked Jesus for His help.

2. I called my wife, siblings and friends and asked them to pray (to Jesus) for grandpa.

3. I asked St. Joseph (my patron Saint) to pray (to Jesus) for my grandpa.

Later that night I went to Mass and lite a candle and asked Mary to pray to Her Son for my Grandpa.

The core of Catholic teaching is we are all the body of Christ, the ones that are here with me and those that have left. It's a family thing. ;)
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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10/20/2011 10:00:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 9:26:49 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 12:50:36 PM, Marauder wrote:
I have a question for the Catholics on this sight, I am honestly curious about the specifics.

How does one have the saints pray intercessory prayer on your behalf? like if I wanted Saint George the dragon slayer or Saint Ignatius of Loyola to pray my prayer on my behalf how do I phrase that prayer?

like if I wanted to pray for the healing of someone I know. Lets say I cant bring myself to pray for there healing directly from me, through Jesus, then to God because lately I have been feeling like though I still have faith God listens to other peoples prayers he just dosent hear mine. But I do think maybe a Saint would have better faith than me to give the prayer. It seems like in the bible people would often seek out God's servants most renowned for there faith and ask them to pray to god for them. Do I go "Dear venerated Saint Ignatius; could you please pray in my place to God for my friend to be healed from there affliction? and do this in Jesus name of course Amen?"

Is that how prayer to the Saints is supposed to work or is my understanding off?

Have you ever asked a fellow Christian to pray for you? It works exactly the same way.

Here's an example.

When I found out my grandpa was in the hospital and in critical condition I.

1. Dropped to my knees and asked Jesus for His help.

2. I called my wife, siblings and friends and asked them to pray (to Jesus) for grandpa.

3. I asked St. Joseph (my patron Saint) to pray (to Jesus) for my grandpa.

Later that night I went to Mass and lite a candle and asked Mary to pray to Her Son for my Grandpa.

The core of Catholic teaching is we are all the body of Christ, the ones that are here with me and those that have left. It's a family thing. ;)

okay, so its just an extension of asking other people who are here to pray with you, not just having them pray instead of you.

How do you pick/ know who there 'Patron Saint' is?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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10/20/2011 10:05:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 9:26:49 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 12:50:36 PM, Marauder wrote:
I have a question for the Catholics on this sight, I am honestly curious about the specifics.

How does one have the saints pray intercessory prayer on your behalf? like if I wanted Saint George the dragon slayer or Saint Ignatius of Loyola to pray my prayer on my behalf how do I phrase that prayer?

like if I wanted to pray for the healing of someone I know. Lets say I cant bring myself to pray for there healing directly from me, through Jesus, then to God because lately I have been feeling like though I still have faith God listens to other peoples prayers he just dosent hear mine. But I do think maybe a Saint would have better faith than me to give the prayer. It seems like in the bible people would often seek out God's servants most renowned for there faith and ask them to pray to god for them. Do I go "Dear venerated Saint Ignatius; could you please pray in my place to God for my friend to be healed from there affliction? and do this in Jesus name of course Amen?"

Is that how prayer to the Saints is supposed to work or is my understanding off?

Have you ever asked a fellow Christian to pray for you? It works exactly the same way.

Here's an example.

When I found out my grandpa was in the hospital and in critical condition I.

1. Dropped to my knees and asked Jesus for His help.

2. I called my wife, siblings and friends and asked them to pray (to Jesus) for grandpa.

3. I asked St. Joseph (my patron Saint) to pray (to Jesus) for my grandpa.

Later that night I went to Mass and lite a candle and asked Mary to pray to Her Son for my Grandpa.

The core of Catholic teaching is we are all the body of Christ, the ones that are here with me and those that have left. It's a family thing. ;)

okay, so its just an extension of asking other people who are here to pray with you, not just having them pray instead of you.

How do you pick/ know who your 'Patron Saint' is?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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10/20/2011 10:06:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
stupid glitch
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/20/2011 10:12:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Prayers Answered = God is good and miraculous!

Prayers Not Answered = "Everything happens for a reason" or"God works in mysterious ways..."

What an awesome deal God's got going on there :) I wish I could claim to be God to take credit for good things and shrug responsibility or failure for the not so good stuff ;)

To answer the OP, I think jharry basically explained it. When I was Catholic and I lost something, my family would tell me to pray to Saint Anthony (patron saint of lost things). I'd basically "ask him to help me find it" or perhaps put in a good word with the guy upstairs in the hopes that I'd help myself find it. I think Catholics are supposed to actually be emulating the virtues of saints though. In other words, they tend to be revered for something in particular - usually their piety, mercy, loyalty, etc. It was my understanding that we should be praying to those saints insofar as looking up to them and respecting them, and trying to use those same virtues to be good Christians just as they did. They were kinda like role models or inspirations. Of course Catholics espouse the idea that you could "pray" to them though just like you can to other figures. You can interpret that any way you want, since I doubt anyone ever responds...
President of DDO
jharry
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10/20/2011 10:13:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:00:03 PM, Marauder wrote:

The core of Catholic teaching is we are all the body of Christ, the ones that are here with me and those that have left. It's a family thing. ;)

okay, so its just an extension of asking other people who are here to pray with you, not just having them pray instead of you.

How do you pick/ know who there 'Patron Saint' is?

Each Saint was known for certain attributes in their life.

St. Joseph was a common man, a worker. He was also the father to a very special boy. He showed Faith in God by accepting his duty as a father to that baby boy. St. Joseph is the patron Saint of workers (common folk) and fathers.

I am a father and a common man. He lived those aspects of this life and I can look to his life for help in dealing with mine.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
JustCallMeTarzan
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10/20/2011 10:24:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is a very confusing doctrine... as a former Catholic I can confirm what (i think) jharry posted above.

There is no such thing as a prayer to a Saint, nor a prayer to Mary. What Catholics do is ask a Saint to intercede on their behalf and offer an additional prayer to God. This can be seen in the wording of "prayers" and incantations offered at Mass. I call them "prayers" because things like the prayer of St. Francis and the Hail Mary are not prayers per se - they are prayers in the advocacy sense, not the divine sense.

Examples:

- St. ______ Pray for us.
- Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners...
- St. _________, patron of ________ pray for us...

So communication with a Saint is a prayer (advocacy) but is not a Prayer (divine). Asking a Saint to grant something or do something other than intercede is forbidden - i.e. you cannot ask Mary to cure your wart.

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....
Marauder
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10/20/2011 11:05:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:13:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:00:03 PM, Marauder wrote:

The core of Catholic teaching is we are all the body of Christ, the ones that are here with me and those that have left. It's a family thing. ;)

okay, so its just an extension of asking other people who are here to pray with you, not just having them pray instead of you.

How do you pick/ know who there 'Patron Saint' is?

Each Saint was known for certain attributes in their life.

St. Joseph was a common man, a worker. He was also the father to a very special boy. He showed Faith in God by accepting his duty as a father to that baby boy. St. Joseph is the patron Saint of workers (common folk) and fathers.

I am a father and a common man. He lived those aspects of this life and I can look to his life for help in dealing with mine.

Okay.

So as a Eagle Scout, my patron saint would be Saint George right? http://thescoutingpages.org.uk...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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10/20/2011 11:20:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:12:22 PM, Danielle wrote:
Prayers Answered = God is good and miraculous!
Gods answer was a yes.

Prayers Not Answered = "Everything happens for a reason" or"God works in mysterious ways..."
Gods answer was a No, or a "not yet"

What an awesome deal God's got going on there :) I wish I could claim to be God to take credit for good things and shrug responsibility or failure for the not so good stuff ;)

I wish I were dannielle; so I could live with the idea that if there were to be a God I would by default be his boss, therefore I could declare him responsible for anything I want so I can enjoy being mad at him when he does not do what I decided he was 'responsible' for. such ignorance is said to be blissful. ;)

To answer the OP, I think jharry basically explained it. When I was Catholic and I lost something, my family would tell me to pray to Saint Anthony (patron saint of lost things). I'd basically "ask him to help me find it" or perhaps put in a good word with the guy upstairs in the hopes that I'd help myself find it. I think Catholics are supposed to actually be emulating the virtues of saints though. In other words, they tend to be revered for something in particular - usually their piety, mercy, loyalty, etc. It was my understanding that we should be praying to those saints insofar as looking up to them and respecting them, and trying to use those same virtues to be good Christians just as they did. They were kinda like role models or inspirations. Of course Catholics espouse the idea that you could "pray" to them though just like you can to other figures. You can interpret that any way you want, since I doubt anyone ever responds...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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10/20/2011 11:49:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:24:44 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
It is a very confusing doctrine... as a former Catholic I can confirm what (i think) jharry posted above.

There is no such thing as a prayer to a Saint, nor a prayer to Mary. What Catholics do is ask a Saint to intercede on their behalf and offer an additional prayer to God. This can be seen in the wording of "prayers" and incantations offered at Mass. I call them "prayers" because things like the prayer of St. Francis and the Hail Mary are not prayers per se - they are prayers in the advocacy sense, not the divine sense.

Examples:

- St. ______ Pray for us.
- Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners...
- St. _________, patron of ________ pray for us...

So communication with a Saint is a prayer (advocacy) but is not a Prayer (divine). Asking a Saint to grant something or do something other than intercede is forbidden - i.e. you cannot ask Mary to cure your wart.
okay; I guess its easy to mix those up when there both termed 'prayer' for short.

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....

well, over time that part of the puzzle that has always puzzled me to no longer is very puzzling to me. sometimes you meet people who are clearly closer in there walk with God than others. It's not that there 'worth' more, there just 'stronger' as far as faith is concerned. Elisha had such a faith that God raised a widows dead son through him. That was a pretty rare Miracle among prophets in the bible.

I believe in Jesus
I believe in God
I believe intellectually in all the things Jesus said like by faith I could walk on the water too. in a literal sense.
But when It comes to actually stepping on water, I have too many impositions that keep me from truely 100% believing I am not going to fall through. Peter had Jesus personally and carnally there with him to 'hold the handlebars of his bicycle' through trying that and he still fell through.

Have you ever seen "Saw II" at the start there's this guy who has to use a knife to stab his own eye to get a key that was surgically planted there so unlock the trap he is in. he has limited time and knows intellectually its the only way to live and wants to live. but he just cant make himself stab out his own eye, and he try's, but it goes against every fiber of his being.

If your faith has the integrety to it that that man would have if he could really make himself stab his own eye, then its of the kind that could walk on the water.

God values me as much as my brother 'worth' wise, but I'm smarter than him so with that gift I can do some more stuff than him with my brain.
Elisha could do more with his faith than the widow could make use of her own.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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10/22/2011 12:21:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 11:05:11 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:13:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:00:03 PM, Marauder wrote:

The core of Catholic teaching is we are all the body of Christ, the ones that are here with me and those that have left. It's a family thing. ;)

okay, so its just an extension of asking other people who are here to pray with you, not just having them pray instead of you.

How do you pick/ know who there 'Patron Saint' is?

Each Saint was known for certain attributes in their life.

St. Joseph was a common man, a worker. He was also the father to a very special boy. He showed Faith in God by accepting his duty as a father to that baby boy. St. Joseph is the patron Saint of workers (common folk) and fathers.

I am a father and a common man. He lived those aspects of this life and I can look to his life for help in dealing with mine.

Okay.

So as a Eagle Scout, my patron saint would be Saint George right? http://thescoutingpages.org.uk...

Yep, any aspect of your life that lines up with Christ and is important to you. St. George knows your path in this life and can help greatly in praying to Our Lord for your assistance.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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10/22/2011 12:23:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:24:44 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
It is a very confusing doctrine... as a former Catholic I can confirm what (i think) jharry posted above.

There is no such thing as a prayer to a Saint, nor a prayer to Mary. What Catholics do is ask a Saint to intercede on their behalf and offer an additional prayer to God. This can be seen in the wording of "prayers" and incantations offered at Mass. I call them "prayers" because things like the prayer of St. Francis and the Hail Mary are not prayers per se - they are prayers in the advocacy sense, not the divine sense.

Examples:

- St. ______ Pray for us.
- Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners...
- St. _________, patron of ________ pray for us...

So communication with a Saint is a prayer (advocacy) but is not a Prayer (divine). Asking a Saint to grant something or do something other than intercede is forbidden - i.e. you cannot ask Mary to cure your wart.

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....

Not so much worth. More understanding your situation and being able to relate. I'm still waiting on a southern hick Saint. But I think St. Joseph is pretty close though.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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10/22/2011 12:27:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 12:21:22 AM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 11:05:11 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:13:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:00:03 PM, Marauder wrote:
How do you pick/ know who there 'Patron Saint' is?

Each Saint was known for certain attributes in their life.

St. Joseph was a common man, a worker. He was also the father to a very special boy. He showed Faith in God by accepting his duty as a father to that baby boy. St. Joseph is the patron Saint of workers (common folk) and fathers.

I am a father and a common man. He lived those aspects of this life and I can look to his life for help in dealing with mine.

Okay.

So as a Eagle Scout, my patron saint would be Saint George right? http://thescoutingpages.org.uk...

Yep, any aspect of your life that lines up with Christ and is important to you. St. George knows your path in this life and can help greatly in praying to Our Lord for your assistance.

one other question (it just now poped in my head cause I have John Wesley on my brain) does this form of prayer only work toward people Catholics have cannonized as Saints, or would advocacy prayer work more or less the same with founders of my church like John Wesley or Frances Asbury?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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10/22/2011 12:41:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 12:27:08 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/22/2011 12:21:22 AM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 11:05:11 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:13:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:00:03 PM, Marauder wrote:
How do you pick/ know who there 'Patron Saint' is?

Each Saint was known for certain attributes in their life.

St. Joseph was a common man, a worker. He was also the father to a very special boy. He showed Faith in God by accepting his duty as a father to that baby boy. St. Joseph is the patron Saint of workers (common folk) and fathers.

I am a father and a common man. He lived those aspects of this life and I can look to his life for help in dealing with mine.

Okay.

So as a Eagle Scout, my patron saint would be Saint George right? http://thescoutingpages.org.uk...

Yep, any aspect of your life that lines up with Christ and is important to you. St. George knows your path in this life and can help greatly in praying to Our Lord for your assistance.

one other question (it just now poped in my head cause I have John Wesley on my brain) does this form of prayer only work toward people Catholics have cannonized as Saints, or would advocacy prayer work more or less the same with founders of my church like John Wesley or Frances Asbury?

As far as I know you can request the prayers from anyone departed. Family, friends and others. The Saints are examples we can emulate (just as Danielle said) but like I said before, the Body of Christ is your family......ALL of them.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Crede
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10/22/2011 6:22:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok, I am just asking a question here so don't go crazy on me. Asking others (people who are alive in this world) to pray for you makes sense...you can talk to them. Asking a saint (dead in this world) to pray doesn't make sense...they can't hear you...only God can hear your prayers. Also I watched a recent documentary that polled thousands of Catholics...because of the "Saints" Jesus was number 6 for who they prayed for. I think praying to the saints is deceptive and unbiblical..Thoughts?
Marauder
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10/23/2011 12:13:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 6:22:43 PM, Crede wrote:
Ok, I am just asking a question here so don't go crazy on me. Asking others (people who are alive in this world) to pray for you makes sense...you can talk to them. Asking a saint (dead in this world) to pray doesn't make sense...they can't hear you...only God can hear your prayers. Also I watched a recent documentary that polled thousands of Catholics...because of the "Saints" Jesus was number 6 for who they prayed for. I think praying to the saints is deceptive and unbiblical..Thoughts?

I'm just asking questions too. like here's one in response to this post; How is it unbiblical to say the dead could hear our prayer request and pray with us any different than the prayer request in our church? if the only difference as Jharry explained was that there dead and our congregation is alive why does death separate them. They are still part of the body of Christ arnt they? there going to be in the resurrection arnt they?
And most importantly I thought scripture tought 'we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses' http://www.biblegateway.com... I once heard a sermon by joel olsteen were he was explaining how we have all those past Christians encouraging us through our harder times.

even if its not strictly said in any passage 'the passed on saints are aware of the life on earth' is it not inferred they do to some extent keep awareness of some of whats going on?

Yes, its bad that many Catholics are just praying to saints and not to Jesus, but many Christians period are not living out there faith the way they should if they were correctly applying it.

if all Catholics kept it in mind the way jharry has that you pray to Jesus first and the saints are just supposed to be praying WITH you then that survey would turn out different.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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10/23/2011 12:18:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
@jharry,
as long as Crede is bringing it up though, while I know the 'cloud of witnesses' passage is used to infer that the passed on part of the body of christ can hear us what do you say about the scripture in 1 Samuel. the part were Samuel is brought up from the dead and he says 'why have you awakened me' indicating he was asleep.

If patriarchs like Samuel are 'asleep' after they pass on how could they here us, the living. Samuel would have never even known Saul wanted to talk had God not specifically intervened in that instance.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Mirza
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10/23/2011 12:42:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is also what certain sects of Shi'a do. They pray "through" some dead imams because these imams have greater faith in God, so their plea will be accepted. Of course, this is somehow nonsensical because you do not pray via a dead person to God, nor does God need anyone to do prayer for you.
jharry
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10/23/2011 2:58:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 6:22:43 PM, Crede wrote:
Ok, I am just asking a question here so don't go crazy on me. Asking others (people who are alive in this world) to pray for you makes sense...you can talk to them. Asking a saint (dead in this world) to pray doesn't make sense...they can't hear you...only God can hear your prayers. Also I watched a recent documentary that polled thousands of Catholics...because of the "Saints" Jesus was number 6 for who they prayed for. I think praying to the saints is deceptive and unbiblical..Thoughts?

How do you know they can't hear you?

I think your argument about what Catholics do is some type of fallacy. I'm not sure the name but you are implying that the doctrine is wrong because people use it incorrectly.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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10/23/2011 3:13:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:18:29 AM, Marauder wrote:
@jharry,
as long as Crede is bringing it up though, while I know the 'cloud of witnesses' passage is used to infer that the passed on part of the body of christ can hear us what do you say about the scripture in 1 Samuel. the part were Samuel is brought up from the dead and he says 'why have you awakened me' indicating he was asleep.

If patriarchs like Samuel are 'asleep' after they pass on how could they here us, the living. Samuel would have never even known Saul wanted to talk had God not specifically intervened in that instance.

I'm not sure what translation this is from? I've read several and I don't remember seeing it phrased as "asleep".

I've seen disquieted and disturbed but never asleep. I think the Hebrew word used in that verse is disturbed.

Have you read where the rich man has a conversation with Abraham in Sheol /Hades/Abraham's side? When the rich man requested to go to his brothers to warn them Abraham didn't say they can't hear you. He said they wouldn't listen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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10/23/2011 3:20:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:42:59 AM, Mirza wrote:
This is also what certain sects of Shi'a do. They pray "through" some dead imams because these imams have greater faith in God, so their plea will be accepted. Of course, this is somehow nonsensical because you do not pray via a dead person to God, nor does God need anyone to do prayer for you.

Huh, I was unaware there was anything even close to this in Islam. It's not exactly the same though, Catholics don't pray through others. Just ask them to pray to God WITH us.

I don't know exactly what God needs. But I think this is more around what God wants. Is there anything like Matthew 5:44 in Islam?

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Or Matt 8: 5-13?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
JustCallMeTarzan
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10/23/2011 4:40:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 11:49:54 PM, Marauder wrote:

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....

It's not that there 'worth' more, there just 'stronger' as far as faith is concerned.

So a prayer's strength has no effect on its worth? That's a strange concept of worth... What would you fill in for the blank??

"Strong prayers from St. Michael are ______________ than weak prayers from Agnostic Allen.
Marauder
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10/24/2011 12:40:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 4:40:39 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 10/20/2011 11:49:54 PM, Marauder wrote:

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....

It's not that there 'worth' more, there just 'stronger' as far as faith is concerned.

So a prayer's strength has no effect on its worth? That's a strange concept of worth... What would you fill in for the blank??

"Strong prayers from St. Michael are ___stronger____ than weak prayers from Agnostic Allen.

how is that hard or strange? a campfire and a brush-fire can both burn up a field (one a little faster than the other) if burning up the field is what you want, putting both to work at burning it up works faster still.

Anyway the actual place you should have put the blank to fill in that statement would have gone like this.
"Stronger __Faith__ from St. Michael makes stronger prayers than weak prayers from Agnostic Allen
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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10/24/2011 12:46:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 4:40:39 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 10/20/2011 11:49:54 PM, Marauder wrote:

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....

It's not that there 'worth' more, there just 'stronger' as far as faith is concerned.

So a prayer's strength has no effect on its worth? That's a strange concept of worth... What would you fill in for the blank??

"Strong prayers from St. Michael are ______________ than weak prayers from Agnostic Allen.

I think the prayers of the Saints are stronger then mine.

Determining worth gets a little sketchy. Kinda like your children. Is one worth more then the other? I don't know many parents that would say yes. Can one child's requests be stronger then another? Yes.

For one thing the Saints don't have some of the restraints we do. I know you don't pray but sometimes when I'm praying something will pop in my head distracting me. Anything really, last week was my boy's ball practice.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Marauder
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10/25/2011 12:22:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 3:13:59 AM, jharry wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:18:29 AM, Marauder wrote:
@jharry,
as long as Crede is bringing it up though, while I know the 'cloud of witnesses' passage is used to infer that the passed on part of the body of christ can hear us what do you say about the scripture in 1 Samuel. the part were Samuel is brought up from the dead and he says 'why have you awakened me' indicating he was asleep.

If patriarchs like Samuel are 'asleep' after they pass on how could they here us, the living. Samuel would have never even known Saul wanted to talk had God not specifically intervened in that instance.

I'm not sure what translation this is from? I've read several and I don't remember seeing it phrased as "asleep".

I've seen disquieted and disturbed but never asleep. I think the Hebrew word used in that verse is disturbed.

thank you for making me re-look that up and find out how off I was. I read somewhere the term 'sleep' and it used scripture to back it up and I thought it was in that story but I guess not. I going to keep looking cause I've had the idea in my head we sleep in 'sheol' until judgement day when we are resurrected and judged.

Have you read where the rich man has a conversation with Abraham in Sheol /Hades/Abraham's side? When the rich man requested to go to his brothers to warn them Abraham didn't say they can't hear you. He said they wouldn't listen.

the thing is, thats a parable. and its a very much a parable about why unbelievers rejecting scripture and the Law, and miracles not helping them if they cant get past those two things.

It could have double meaning of it describing in every sense how it is for the dead, I'm very open to that interpretation, but even if it is the rich man asked for lazureth be raised from the dead so he can go tell his brothers. that does not mean he could see his brothers and saw they were going to go to Hades with him given how they acted, it just means he knew his brothers.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Gileandos
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10/25/2011 9:42:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Interesting discussion.

I think my problem with asking the Saints to intercede for us is key.

I have no problem if they are near you and able to hear you, but like Satan we see no reason to believe they are everywhere present.

How can Mary possibly hear a billion prayers every minute?

Some have responded to me saying that there is no time in Heaven, but there is clearly a linear time frame in heaven as Satan fell, took 1/3 of the angels etc...
JustCallMeTarzan
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10/25/2011 5:04:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 12:40:15 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/23/2011 4:40:39 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 10/20/2011 11:49:54 PM, Marauder wrote:

But what has always puzzled me is the idea that you should ask the Saints to intercede because, you know, their prayer is worth more than yours....

It's not that there 'worth' more, there just 'stronger' as far as faith is concerned.

So a prayer's strength has no effect on its worth? That's a strange concept of worth... What would you fill in for the blank??

"Strong prayers from St. Michael are ___stronger____ than weak prayers from Agnostic Allen.

how is that hard or strange? a campfire and a brush-fire can both burn up a field (one a little faster than the other) if burning up the field is what you want, putting both to work at burning it up works faster still.

In terms of field-burning-capacity, which is better? Supposing you could start any number of either fire, which would be the better solution to burn the field?

I assume you want to burn it quickly... and the same with prayers... people make time sensitive prayers all the time...

Anyway the actual place you should have put the blank to fill in that statement would have gone like this.
"Stronger __Faith__ from St. Michael makes stronger prayers than weak prayers from Agnostic Allen

So his prayers are worth more because his faith is stronger?
jharry
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10/25/2011 6:15:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/25/2011 12:22:31 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/23/2011 3:13:59 AM, jharry wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:18:29 AM, Marauder wrote:
@jharry,
as long as Crede is bringing it up though, while I know the 'cloud of witnesses' passage is used to infer that the passed on part of the body of christ can hear us what do you say about the scripture in 1 Samuel. the part were Samuel is brought up from the dead and he says 'why have you awakened me' indicating he was asleep.

If patriarchs like Samuel are 'asleep' after they pass on how could they here us, the living. Samuel would have never even known Saul wanted to talk had God not specifically intervened in that instance.

I'm not sure what translation this is from? I've read several and I don't remember seeing it phrased as "asleep".

I've seen disquieted and disturbed but never asleep. I think the Hebrew word used in that verse is disturbed.

thank you for making me re-look that up and find out how off I was. I read somewhere the term 'sleep' and it used scripture to back it up and I thought it was in that story but I guess not. I going to keep looking cause I've had the idea in my head we sleep in 'sheol' until judgement day when we are resurrected and judged.

Have you read where the rich man has a conversation with Abraham in Sheol /Hades/Abraham's side? When the rich man requested to go to his brothers to warn them Abraham didn't say they can't hear you. He said they wouldn't listen.

the thing is, thats a parable. and its a very much a parable about why unbelievers rejecting scripture and the Law, and miracles not helping them if they cant get past those two things.

I'm not so certain it is a parable. A parable is usually used to show how something is somewhere else using things people understand. They usually don't have specific people or places, just Lord,servant,master,woman and man. This is pretty descriptive.

If I told you a parable about my work I could use a field and people working there. I could call the supervisor the master and the workers servants. I could describe workers that messed everything up but kissed butt good so they moved up and the workers that did their job with skill were kept in those places so the work would get done.

Or I could tell you about the place I work and tell you my supervisor Don promoted James cause he's a butt kisser and a snitch and keep good likes like Gerald in the field because they continually produce.

The first one would be a parable where the second would not.

It could have double meaning of it describing in every sense how it is for the dead, I'm very open to that interpretation, but even if it is the rich man asked for lazureth be raised from the dead so he can go tell his brothers. that does not mean he could see his brothers and saw they were going to go to Hades with him given how they acted, it just means he knew his brothers.

Yes he knew his brothers. He wanted to warn them, or he wanted to help them. Just like the Saints want to help us. As far as the Saints knowing what we want we would need to go into Revelations.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen