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Karma and Buddhism

mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 5:10:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Karma.. The Law of Cause and Effect.. sounds like a good scientific-type principle Right?

well WTF do these people mean by "accumulation of karma"??

clearly MORE is meant by Karma than "the law of Cause and effect"

in fact Karma is just that dirty religious word we've always suspected it of being.. you save a bunny.. you get good karma and good stuff happens! :o)
sure..sure.. not all at once.. You've got to "Accumulate" it.

and then.. well.. after you die you get reborn and depending on your karma Might be able to be rewarded!!!

Karma as the Law of Cause and Effect (when treated Broadly and not dealing with some type of specific Moral substance that's "accumulated" to types of affects) is a sensible notion of how things of Experience (samsara) work.

Karma as it's Actually thought of (operating in some transcendent moral sphere) is baseless mumbo-jumbo Horse*h*t..

Is there basis (from what the buddha supposedly said) for the GRAND MAJORITY of buddhists from All major traditions believing in the Latter kind of Karma?

did Buddha preach a defensible Karma? or was his the same Mumbo-jumbo that the lama and co.. (all those mahayana, theravada, zen even!) believe in?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 5:13:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 5:10:23 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
did Buddha preach a defensible Karma? or was his the same Mumbo-jumbo that the lama and co.. (all those mahayana, theravada, zen even!) believe in?

I suspect it was mumbo jumbo from buddha too...

For he had no reason for putting Compassion on that pedestal.. and that strikes similar to having some transcending moral "karma" stuff too accumulate.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 5:34:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
maybe buddha deserves a slightly better rap..

I've got to do more reading of stuff he supposedly says.. but being in a buddhism class and reading/listening to practicing and Established "buddhist" sources I've come to the conclusion that "buddhism".. that religion that goes on today.. can only be taken so seriously

and that that which it has that is neat and interesting is all wrapped up in a whole bunch of bogusness.
(which the buddha at the very least left his doctrine open for with his emphasis on Compassion.. Compassion is NOT the "jewel" of wisdom.. Compassion happens b/c you happen to care.. you have emotions.. Understanding of how things are does not Bring Compassion of itself.. Sentient beings are not necessarily inherently compassionate and Buddha's suggesting that Compassion is a Transcendent quality of Intelligent beings that if they come to See Clearly they'll embrace is unsupported bull.. which Encourages more bull whether or not he explicitly wrote the tunes these later buddhists play)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/20/2011 5:44:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
For every action you do, there is positive and negative karma.

What makes karma positive and negative? Objectively, there is nothing positive or negative about it, it's just a flow of the universe. However, once you put a grid over it, positive is what is conducive to the goal of the grid, and negative is what isn't.

Reincarnation is a misunderstood concept. There is actually no such thing as an "eternal soul", at least not in the way people think of it. There is a reason that the reincarnated do not hold onto their past beliefs and self.

There are two types of reincarnation. There is the reincarnation that happens when one is living that deals with the reactions going on in the body and mind.. Then there is the reincarnation that happens independent of the body, which has more to do with other minds than your own.

The type of reincarnation that happens when one is living is the less familiar.. But throughout our lives, we live, and we die. We are not the same person we were a few years ago, we have different opinions. Some people have drastically changed mentally, this is being "born again" to use a common Christian expression. But the point being, reincarnation of this type is of change while your currently recognizable body is living.

The type of reincarnation that happens independent of the body has to do with ideas, cultures, attitudes, etc that live on past one's physical death, usually in a form that is a slight variation from the original. Great philosophers of the past will come up with ideas, and those ideas will be forgotten, and then thought up independently centuries later. This is another form of reincarnation.

Now, the funny thing about Buddhism is this, when it talks about escaping karma, the cycles of reincarnation, etc. he is speaking about something way beyond what most people realize. Buddha attempted to get people to realize that the perception of positive and negative karma itself has more to do with the grid you are placing over reality than how reality actually is. To escape that, you must be aware of the fact that the grid itself is a mental fabrication. Escaping reincarnation deals with seeing how the One, the None, and the Infinite are the all the same, and then looking beyond yourself as being any.

Escaping reincarnation is a bit more complicated to explain, but they are the same thing. It comes with understanding what you aren't and what you are. It is very abstract, and has to do with escaping the realm of symbols and such. It is a nirvana, an awareness of your union with True Chaos, Tao, God, Allah, etc., but really none of these things, because they are more or less words to describe it, but aren't in fact.. IT..

Get my drift, dawg?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/20/2011 5:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"There are deeds and the continued effect of deeds."
-- the Buddha

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 6:03:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 5:57:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"There are deeds and the continued effect of deeds."
-- the Buddha

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

yeah.. That sounds good... but how do those deeds lead to affects?

does "karma accumulate"???

or does Sh*t happen?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
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10/20/2011 6:11:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:03:18 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/20/2011 5:57:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"There are deeds and the continued effect of deeds."
-- the Buddha

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

yeah.. That sounds good... but how do those deeds lead to affects?

does "karma accumulate"???

or does Sh*t happen?

"The law of karma has no concrete existence."
-- Dogen Kigen
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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10/20/2011 6:12:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I made it clear that I support the notion of things being caused and causally related.

The thing I'm saying is baseless is the notion that there's some Transcendent moral order lying behind this...

that is that karma is "accumulated" and that is what determines what happens.

where'd they come up with that?!

Sure things relate causally.. but where'd they get the notion of the "thing" of Karma.

Karma as a notion of Causal relations among existing things... Yeah.
Karma as a special moral substance.. or some transcendent moral order lying behind/organizing the world.. No.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 6:14:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:11:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/20/2011 6:03:18 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/20/2011 5:57:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"There are deeds and the continued effect of deeds."
-- the Buddha

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

yeah.. That sounds good... but how do those deeds lead to affects?

does "karma accumulate"???

or does Sh*t happen?

"The law of karma has no concrete existence."
-- Dogen Kigen

what I draw from that is that it characterizes Samsara..

and Ok.. but there's no basis of saying it (as a moral order of some sort) characterizes samsara...
There's basis for saying Samsara operates by cause and effect.. but not Special Moral, behind the scenes, cause and effect.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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10/20/2011 6:17:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's just another version of the Christian belief that everyone will be judged after they die and thus all wrongs will eventually be righted. It's such an attractive idea that it's no wonder it's an integral part of all the major religions.

In some Buddhist traditions, however, interestingly, the objective is to bring the cycle of karma, and death and rebirth to an end by eliminating the self and performing as few actions that could be construed as good or evil as possible - thus accumulating no karma of either kind and stopping rebirth into a new realm.
GeoLaureate8
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10/20/2011 6:17:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Karma is not transcendental. It's a law of existence. It's not some ethereal transcendental database stored for each individual. Idk where you got that idea from.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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10/20/2011 6:31:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is a more common misconception than you think, Geo.

But basically yeah, I'm agreeing with Geo so far on this.

Morality is a grid that people place over karma, which gives it the "positive/negative" karma duality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 6:41:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.lamayeshe.com...
Dalai lama says:
Karma—the natural law of cause and effect. Whatever external causal conditions someone comes across in subsequent lives result from the accumulation of that individual's actions in previous lives.

The causes of the present situation has to do with all of the various inter-connected Natures at play in the situation.. and All of their pasts.

It's not due to My 'actions' in past lives..
what's this even mean? plants (of which I've partially come to be through) don't act.. and I don't think that the Cow's actions (whose beef I ate) has Particular relevance to my actions now (though I acknowledge they certainly may play some small part).. Plants don't act at least.. And neither do the rocks that I come from at at some point in the past

The causally interrelated natures of the situation determine how it goes.. Saying it's all due to accumulation of Merit through past lives (as he goes on below) is a Ridiculous way of talking if you simply mean cause and effect through the nature of the given things at hand.

Plants and rocks don't act... and the beef that I've been constructed with probably didn't "act" either.. though it was a meaty part of a thing that did.

is When the karmic force of past deeds reaches maturity a person experiences pleasurable and unpleasurable mental states. They are but a natural sequence of his own previous actions.

in part.. But my previous actions are NOT the only thing that goes in here.. All natures do.. and talking of Past lives makes no sense either ;)

Sure I came from causes.. and I myself cause things..

there's no reason to talk of Continuity of a particular Mind stream or whatever though.. as Buddhists are apt to.

The most important thing to understand is that, when suitable (karmic) conditions resulting from the totality of past actions are there, one's external factors are bound to be favourable.

or not.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 6:45:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:31:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is a more common misconception than you think, Geo.

But basically yeah, I'm agreeing with Geo so far on this.

Morality is a grid that people place over karma, which gives it the "positive/negative" karma duality.

that's not what the common buddhist conception is from what I can tell..

And do you or do you not think that buddha suggested that Compassion was "Good"
in a manner that Goes beyond what a particular person desires?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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10/20/2011 6:46:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:45:53 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
And do you or do you not think that buddha suggested that Compassion was "Good"
in a manner that Goes beyond what a particular person desires?

it seems he suggested Compassion is a "grid" that ALL should put upon things
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/20/2011 6:48:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:41:04 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
The causes of the present situation has to do with all of the various inter-connected Natures at play in the situation.. and All of their pasts.

This is what I'm saying.

For the record the Dalai Lama is like the pope of Tibetian Buddhism.. They have doctrines that give him authority due to this conception of reincarnation that is faulty.

I wouldn't take him too seriously in terms of spiritual matters unless what he says is true, then by all means do so.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 6:50:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:48:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
For the record the Dalai Lama is like the pope of Tibetian Buddhism.. They have doctrines that give him authority due to this conception of reincarnation that is faulty.

From what I've seen the grand majority of buddhist practitioners and traditions have similarly faulty doctrines
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/20/2011 6:59:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:45:53 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/20/2011 6:31:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is a more common misconception than you think, Geo.

But basically yeah, I'm agreeing with Geo so far on this.

Morality is a grid that people place over karma, which gives it the "positive/negative" karma duality.

that's not what the common buddhist conception is from what I can tell..

And do you or do you not think that buddha suggested that Compassion was "Good"
in a manner that Goes beyond what a particular person desires?

Most Buddhists don't really know what they are talking about, it's more of a pretentious ego thing than actually being a Buddhist. Most of the Buddhists I've met don't really seem to have a clue, and are more New Age than Buddhist, even though they use the Buddhist label. They don't even know what the purpose of meditation is!

I think the Buddha saw his attempt at trying to enlighten the people around him as more of a game than anything, and why not? The hardest thing in the entire world is to transfer this type of knowledge to someone, even if they want it!

The very nature of the knowledge makes you understand why it is counterproductive to try to transfer it, and I would be surprised if Buddha wasn't aware of this.

Attempting to elevate mankind was certainly good for the Buddha, as he felt so, but no, this is not an objective truth, it isn't necessary. It is fun to try though. If nothing else, it is a great way to measure the depth of someone's awareness of actuality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mikeee
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10/20/2011 7:50:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Karma is not a materialistic thing, once I gain 100 Karma points, I can't just go and get a free meal. Just because I save cats does not mean I will win the lottery. Regardless of your religions and political views, you should always do the moral thing. By doing good, your life will be filled with happiness. By doing the right thing, you become a better person, regardless of an afterlife or not.
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 8:12:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 7:50:33 PM, Mikeee wrote:
Regardless of your religions and political views, you should always do the moral thing. By doing good, your life will be filled with happiness. By doing the right thing, you become a better person, regardless of an afterlife or not.

what do you mean by the moral/right thing? what do you mean by good?

and why should everyone always do That?.. what make it sensible to Them?

your page says you're a Taoist.. what would you say to Robber Zhi who murders and pillages and explains himself thusly:
"You're the one who wanted to come to tell me something. If you want to tell me about the affairs of ghosts, then I couldn't possible understand what you'd have to say. If you want to tell me about the affairs of people, then I'm not interested in that. I've already heard about all those stories and understand them thoroughly.
"Now I'm going to tell you about people's emotions. Their eyes want to see colors. Their ears want to hear sounds. Their mouths want to taste flavors. They want their aspirations to be fulfilled. People think it's best to live for a hundred years, see it as mediocre to live for eighty years, and find it least attractive to live for merely sixty years. Excluding the times when one is seriously ill and leaving out the times when one is in mourning, the times when one can open one's mouth and laugh out loud wouldn't be more than four or five days in a month.
"The heavens and the earth are without end, but one who dies is limited by time. To try to hold on to what is ultimately limited by time and retain a sense of that which passes without end - don't even try to do that. It would be no different than trying to see a speeding stallion passing by a crack in a wall. Anyone who isn't able to rejoice in what's within their hearts and the expressions that come from their hearts, nor nourish themselves throughout their natural lifespan has made no connection whatsoever with Dao.

http://www.daoisopen.com...

why should he carry out your "good" instead of Embracing that which is... Embracing his existence as it comes.. Embracing his will as it comes and is.

Robber Zhi lives his life just as Butcher Ding cuts up oxen. http://c2.com...

why should he listen to You?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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10/20/2011 8:32:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Robber Zhi lives his life just as Butcher Ding cuts up oxen. http://c2.com...

if you're to read the cook ding bit.. be sure to read the 'poetic' version just below the first one... Much better :o)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Kinesis
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10/21/2011 4:27:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Karma is what you get when you give a beggar non-irradiated water to make up for blowing up Megaton with a nuclear bomb.
GeoLaureate8
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10/21/2011 10:29:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 6:48:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/20/2011 6:41:04 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
The causes of the present situation has to do with all of the various inter-connected Natures at play in the situation.. and All of their pasts.

This is what I'm saying.

For the record the Dalai Lama is like the pope of Tibetian Buddhism..

Except he doesn't believe in Tibetan Buddhism really. After his years and years of study, he takes a more rational, philosophical approach to Buddhism but still has great knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism.

They have doctrines that give him authority due to this conception of reincarnation that is faulty.

I wouldn't take him too seriously in terms of spiritual matters unless what he says is true, then by all means do so.

It's not his fault their conception of reincarnation is faulty. He has a pretty rational approach to the issue of rebirth and the continuity of consciousness.

Dalai Lama: "in the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness, or "no soul" theory, the understanding is that there is no eternal, unchanging, abiding, permanent self called "soul." That is what is being denied in Buddhism.

Buddhism does not deny the continuum of consciousness. Because of this, we find some Tibetan scholars, such as the Sakya master Rendawa, who accept that there is such a thing as self or soul, the "kangsak ki dak" (Tib. gang zag gi bdag). However, the same word, the "kangsak ki dak", the self, or person, or personal self, or identity, is at the same time denied by many other scholars.

We find diverse opinions, even among Buddhist scholars, as to what exactly the nature of self is, what exactly that thing or entity is that continues from one moment to the next moment, from one lifetime to the next lifetime. Some try to locate it within the aggregates, the composite of body and mind. Some explain it in terms of a designation based on the body and mind composite, and so on.... One of the divisions of [the "Mind-Only"] school maintains there is a special continuum of consciousness called alayavijnana which is the fundamental consciousness."

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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10/21/2011 1:04:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 10:29:21 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/20/2011 6:48:16 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
For the record the Dalai Lama is like the pope of Tibetian Buddhism..

Except he doesn't believe in Tibetan Buddhism really. After his years and years of study, he takes a more rational, philosophical approach to Buddhism but still has great knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism.
ography

Ah, that's interesting to know. Haven't really looked too deep into the guy, because Tibetan Buddhism interested me less and less the more I learned about it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp