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Lets be honest.

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/23/2011 12:56:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

The vast majority of Christian theologians do not claim you go to hell for not "knowing" God or Jesus.
You can go to hell for being an athiest. That is attacking God. A very different concept than ignorance.

Most that do not "know" God or have not heard the Gospel go to the intermediate state.
Those people (whether Christian or another religion) if they become evil and choose to reject the "self-evident" moral conscience placed inside of them do indeed warrant a place in Hell.

There is a very large number of "specific" situations any given person can find themselves in.

The above covers the vast majority of them.

Only a few subsects of Christianity would as a denomination disagree.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/23/2011 1:01:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Atheists do not attack God, they attack the worship of false idols.

Oh no wait, they don't even do that most of the time, they just don't believe in something because they have no good reason to.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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10/23/2011 1:06:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:01:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Atheists do not attack God, they attack the worship of false idols.

Oh no wait, they don't even do that most of the time, they just don't believe in something because they have no good reason to.

God is jealous of the Ungod.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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10/23/2011 1:08:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:56:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
The vast majority of Christian theologians do not claim you go to hell for not "knowing" God or Jesus.
You can go to hell for being an athiest. That is attacking God. A very different concept than ignorance.

Regarding God as non-existent, or abstaining from belief in God is not 'attacking' God, any more than regarding Zeus, Vishnu, reincarnation or the Tooth Fairy is 'attacking' any of those concepts. Personally I think sending people to a place of infinite punishment can never be justified by any crime anyway. Any crimes we commit on earth are necessarily finite.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/23/2011 1:09:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hell makes for a good marketing device among schmucks, cowards, and the like.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/23/2011 1:14:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.
I'll respond from a Muslim perspective.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God?
In Islam, there is a difference between an unbeliever and a disbeliever. The Arabic term "kaafir" is used to describe a person who conceals the truth, i.e., he knows it is right but rejects it. An unbeliever is not a kaafir; he just does not believe due to say, ignorance of Islam, but he does not outright reject the religion.

Going to Hell for disbelieving is because disbelief is a serious crime. One is misleading himself as well as others, which leads to more consequences in long terms.

I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.
If people do not reject the religion, and are simply not aware of it, then they are forgiven by God if He wishes to forgive them, of course.

[Qur'an 17:15] Whoever came to guidance, has come for his own good; and whoever went astray, has strayed for his own ruin; and no burdened soul will bear another's burden; and We never punish until We have sent a Noble Messenger.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/23/2011 1:17:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

I find it quite interesting that people are such moral relativists until they question theology.

Let me ask you something before we move forward -- do you believe in right and wrong? Do you believe that there are set laws in the universe that govern morality, as there are set laws that govern physics?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/23/2011 1:21:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why is not believing in God a bad thing? Why is that given the same punishment as murder, rape, mass slaughter, genocide, torture, and sheer inhumanity?

The act of disbelief is not one of coercion. It does not harm people, it does not violate morality. Its merely a belief.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/23/2011 1:25:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:17:42 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

I find it quite interesting that people are such moral relativists until they question theology.

Let me ask you something before we move forward -- do you believe in right and wrong? Do you believe that there are set laws in the universe that govern morality, as there are set laws that govern physics?

Right and wrong is evolutionary development from man's need to sustain existence. As we increased in intelligence and awareness of being so did our inherent capacity to comprehend "fairness." Now, not all of morality is decided in this fashion, but the core of morality which condemns murder and the like are probably a product of evolution, to sustain the existence of humans.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/23/2011 1:26:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:25:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/23/2011 1:17:42 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

I find it quite interesting that people are such moral relativists until they question theology.

Let me ask you something before we move forward -- do you believe in right and wrong? Do you believe that there are set laws in the universe that govern morality, as there are set laws that govern physics?

Right and wrong is evolutionary development from man's need to sustain existence. As we increased in intelligence and awareness of being so did our inherent capacity to comprehend "fairness." Now, not all of morality is decided in this fashion, but the core of morality which condemns murder and the like are probably a product of evolution, to sustain the existence of humans.
Own goal, but go on.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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10/23/2011 1:27:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:17:42 PM, Ren wrote:
I find it quite interesting that people are such moral relativists until they question theology.

Let me ask you something before we move forward -- do you believe in right and wrong? Do you believe that there are set laws in the universe that govern morality, as there are set laws that govern physics?

I'm not a moral relativist in any case, but pointing out moral inconsistencies within Christianity itself requires no prior belief in objective morality. They're problems within the Christian worldview itself: the views of the criticiser need not come into it.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/23/2011 1:28:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:08:15 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:56:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
The vast majority of Christian theologians do not claim you go to hell for not "knowing" God or Jesus.
You can go to hell for being an athiest. That is attacking God. A very different concept than ignorance.

Regarding God as non-existent, or abstaining from belief in God is not 'attacking' God, any more than regarding Zeus, Vishnu, reincarnation or the Tooth Fairy is 'attacking' any of those concepts. Personally I think sending people to a place of infinite punishment can never be justified by any crime anyway. Any crimes we commit on earth are necessarily finite.

Relatively few people that advocate atheism are silent about it. Once you advocate it you are against God.

A weak athiest is to me an agnostic. I believe God would see it that way as well. The majority of the church would also find this assessment appropriate.

As for your personal opinion on justice... just because you believe Pot should be legal (or find some such disagreement within your own view)
does not mean you will still not wind up punished by someone else's view of "appropriate" punishment.

I concur with God's assesment. I have no problem with Hilter spending forever in Hell for the evil things he has done.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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10/23/2011 1:29:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:21:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
Why is not believing in God a bad thing? Why is that given the same punishment as murder, rape, mass slaughter, genocide, torture, and sheer inhumanity?

Worse. Mainstream Christianity entails that you can do any or all of those things and be let off the hook if you accept Christ.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/23/2011 1:36:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:17:42 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

I find it quite interesting that people are such moral relativists until they question theology.

Let me ask you something before we move forward -- do you believe in right and wrong? Do you believe that there are set laws in the universe that govern morality, as there are set laws that govern physics?

The problem is, if you are religious, you've read your religious text, and do not see a problem with it, no amount of stabbing from the moral angle is going to be effective.

Arguing the morality of religion is as big a waste of time as arguing over what scripture means, and none of these things get to the root.

Debating religion in itself is a complete waste of time anyway. It's all psychic bondage and things of the like. The only person who can break free from that demonic possession is the person being possessed. There is nothing I could do to convert anyone, and there is nothing I could say that would convince anyone that I know what I'm talking about.

You can't convince people of anything. If someone appears to switch sides in an argument, it is because they found that they already agreed with the other person.

Those under the control of psychic manipulation are not self aware, if they were, they would know of the spell they are under. Some of the more cowardly and miserable ones knowingly practice self deceit.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Kinesis
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10/23/2011 1:38:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:28:19 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Relatively few people that advocate atheism are silent about it. Once you advocate it you are against God.

lol, the only reason you think that is because you don't know about people who are atheists and keep silent about it.

A weak athiest is to me an agnostic. I believe God would see it that way as well. The majority of the church would also find this assessment appropriate.

So uh...Dawkins still has a shot at heaven? :P

As for your personal opinion on justice... just because you believe Pot should be legal (or find some such disagreement within your own view)
does not mean you will still not wind up punished by someone else's view of "appropriate" punishment.

Don't you think that punishment should be scaled to the seriousness of the crime? Stealing a cookie is worth a sharp word or a slap on the wrist. Stealing a car is worth a few years in jail or a fine. Manslaughter is worth a lot of years in jail. Justice entails punishment in proportion to the crime. Given that, and you're entirely free to disagree with that notion, it's blatantly unjust to punish someone forever for any crime that has finite weight.

I concur with God's assesment. I have no problem with Hilter spending forever in Hell for the evil things he has done.

Ironically, since Christianity entails that people's belief system rather than their actions determines whether they go to hell or not, people who have done horrifying things like Hitler can still get into heaven if they truly convert and accept Christ before death.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/23/2011 1:39:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
An atheist is against very specifically the theistic concept of God, which is an abominable idol which is often mistaken as the One God by those who are still being manipulated by forces they are not aware of.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mikeee
Posts: 234
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10/23/2011 1:47:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God? What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

Teachings like this exist because because the true faith has been distorted over the years since its emergence. No one can say weather or not someone will be in heaven or hell (I don't believe in either). Why are women not allowed to be priest? It has nothing to do with religion itself, it has everything to do with what life was like during the development of it. Had a Christianity been developed after women's rights movements, they would be able to be priest, but because Christianity developed in Rome, which was a strict patriarchal society, they had not been allowed, but many poorer people and women choice to convert because its new idea of tolerance.

What many atheist and theist tend to fail at is perspective. If Christianity developed over 2000 years ago, it probably will not directly address things like medical abortion, because that was not an issue back then. Religion is adapted to address the problems of today.
jewgirl
Posts: 20
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10/23/2011 1:54:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

Why would someone go to hell for not believing in God? I thought the lord was omnibenevolent. It seems to me like quite a menial crime. Can you explain the necessity of believing in God?

1) Moral relativism: Without G-d, man will not know what is moral.
2) Heard from Professor Gottleib, if there is a G-d, there is a moral imperative of gratitude.
jewgirl
Posts: 20
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10/23/2011 1:58:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions?

Many have found god on their own, through desiring and actively seeking truth.

God knows the hart of all man. If a person is really blameless , had no ability, and did the best he could, he will not be held punished.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/23/2011 2:49:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
First circle of hell right? It's not paradise but you aren't being tortured.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/23/2011 2:53:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 2:49:26 PM, MarquisX wrote:
First circle of hell right? It's not paradise but you aren't being tortured.

Gileandos, do you agree with this?

And, MarquisX, do you believe that heaven is in a 4th dimension, and God blew the red sea apart from the 4th dimension to let Moses pass?

Intellectual Christians have such scattered views. They are all trying to justify an unjustifiable belief and as a result purport random things than are neither part of mainstream Christianity or known by anyone else but themselves.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
MarquisX
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10/23/2011 2:57:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 2:53:49 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/23/2011 2:49:26 PM, MarquisX wrote:
First circle of hell right? It's not paradise but you aren't being tortured.

Gileandos, do you agree with this?

And, MarquisX, do you believe that heaven is in a 4th dimension, and God blew the red sea apart from the 4th dimension to let Moses pass?
Nope

Intellectual Christians have such scattered views. They are all trying to justify an unjustifiable belief and as a result purport random things than are neither part of mainstream Christianity or known by anyone else but themselves.

What are you talking about? I didn't make up the Circles of Hell.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/23/2011 3:06:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:38:46 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/23/2011 1:28:19 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Relatively few people that advocate atheism are silent about it. Once you advocate it you are against God.

lol, the only reason you think that is because you don't know about people who are atheists and keep silent about it.
I clarified earlier. You risk Hell as an athiest. If you are weak or agnostic it is a risk. To attack God is near certain.

A weak athiest is to me an agnostic. I believe God would see it that way as well. The majority of the church would also find this assessment appropriate.

So uh...Dawkins still has a shot at heaven? :P
Yes he has a shot. If he repents then yes He could still get into Heaven after a long stint in the intermediate state or temporal reform in this life.


As for your personal opinion on justice... just because you believe Pot should be legal (or find some such disagreement within your own view)
does not mean you will still not wind up punished by someone else's view of "appropriate" punishment.

Don't you think that punishment should be scaled to the seriousness of the crime? Stealing a cookie is worth a sharp word or a slap on the wrist. Stealing a car is worth a few years in jail or a fine. Manslaughter is worth a lot of years in jail. Justice entails punishment in proportion to the crime. Given that, and you're entirely free to disagree with that notion, it's blatantly unjust to punish someone forever for any crime that has finite weight.

You did not seem to reflect what I stated. I will expand.
No criminal has ever set the punishment for their own crime.
I believe it would be ludicrous to do so.
I have no problem with scale but I assure you I would be much harsher on most than you would.

The point was that no matter what you believe, you will still be punished by the judicial system whether you agree with the punishment or not.


I concur with God's assesment. I have no problem with Hilter spending forever in Hell for the evil things he has done.

Ironically, since Christianity entails that people's belief system rather than their actions determines whether they go to hell or not, people who have done horrifying things like Hitler can still get into heaven if they truly convert and accept Christ before death.

Everything you stated above indicates you have a limited view of Christianity.
Only a few of the protestant sects believe that "belief" in Jesus alone gets you into heaven.

The vast vast majority of denominations and theologians recognize that rejection of the character of God (morality) will place you into hell.
That is not a mainstream Christian doctrine.
shift4101
Posts: 50
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10/23/2011 3:07:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
First, we need to understand 2 things:

1) Why do we exist, if God is real?
2) What is heaven, how do we get there, why do we go there, and what is the purpose?

The very simple answer to (1) is to bring glory to God. It is not to become more logically like God (Deism), or to survive in a cruel world while trying to be the best person you can be (Cathlotocism). The end result of our existence, so as long God exists, is to bring glory to his sacred name.

Heaven is where the sinless go when they die. If you (a) follow all of the Old Testament law perfectly for your entire life (b) or believe in Jesus Christ so he may forgive you of your sins, you will go to Heaven. In Heaven, in the believers perfection, they worship God for the rest of eternity.

Now, at first that might sound like a bad thing, having to be completely submissive and lacking free will. However, if God exists, he designed those qualities to make us the happiest and holiest people so as long as we follow them. So we should be more so excited to go to heaven than fear it.

So in heaven, God surrounds himself with his perfect, holy followers so they may worship him and make holy his name. However, imperfection cannot exist in heaven. By being imperfect, it does not bring honor to God's name, but rather it demonstrates flaws within him. God is not flawed. So God cannot surround himself with those who are flawed.

Those who are flawed do not share the kingdom of God, so they are cast away into the lake of fire.

Thats pretty much the gist of it.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/23/2011 3:12:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 1:27:54 PM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm not a moral relativist in any case, but pointing out moral inconsistencies within Christianity itself requires no prior belief in objective morality. They're problems within the Christian worldview itself: the views of the criticiser need not come into it.

Of course it does. You cannot point out moral inconsistencies if you deny the existence of morals. For those people, just as morals are relative to each individual person, they're relative to God, as well.

The moral tenets that God presented to us were for us, not for Him.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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10/23/2011 3:14:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 2:53:49 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/23/2011 2:49:26 PM, MarquisX wrote:
First circle of hell right? It's not paradise but you aren't being tortured.

Gileandos, do you agree with this?
The place he is referring to is Dante's work and is a work of fiction from medieval times.
Technically there is no document of the internal workings of hell.


And, MarquisX, do you believe that heaven is in a 4th dimension, and God blew the red sea apart from the 4th dimension to let Moses pass?

Intellectual Christians have such scattered views. They are all trying to justify an unjustifiable belief and as a result purport random things than are neither part of mainstream Christianity or known by anyone else but themselves.

Here is a link from a 1954 painting with Jesus being crucified on the Tesseract. Since the Mathematical inceptions, educated Christians in mathematics have recognized the 4th dimension has a clear explanatory power of the function of angels being with us but invisible etc...

http://im-possible.info...
Image at the bottom of the page.
shift4101
Posts: 50
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10/23/2011 3:21:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:38:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
I have a question for the Christians of this site.

What would happen to the innocent people that never even heard of God or were born into different religions? This sounds more cruel and wrong than fair and immeasurably forgiving.

Are you assuming that no man is capable of dragging other men away from God? In the beginning, everyone believed. Only through works of men do we lose sight.

For instance, the Indians. They came over to the Americas from Eurasia. If Christianity is correct, their ancestors believed in God. But somewhere down the line, a man distorted everything they were taught, and they lost faith. Because of that man, all his children and their children and their children were doomed to hell. Men are able to change the fate of other men.

Also, God reveals himself to all of us. Only sin and corruption of our souls prevent us from seeing him, so as long as Christianity is correct.

PROTESTANTISM TEACHES UNBELIEVERS GO TO HELL, PERIOD. ANYTHING ELSE IS NON-ORTHODOX AND A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SECT OF CHRISTIANITY.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/23/2011 3:45:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Lol, create a debate and put your money where your mouth is about christianity being unjustifiable, ike. I'd love to see your 1337 arguments.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/23/2011 3:51:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 3:45:29 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Lol, create a debate and put your money where your mouth is about christianity being unjustifiable, ike. I'd love to see your 1337 arguments.

Problem of Evil.
God will send people to hell for belief, something which is beyond conscious control.
God is utterly just yet our chance of salvation is a lottery.
The story of lot, Sodom, Noah...

Seriously, it can't survive a precocious child in sunday school.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.