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The Rock Paradox

Mr.Infidel
Posts: 300
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10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).
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Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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10/23/2011 6:08:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

Kohai/Mr. Infidel, what do you think of InquireTruth's arguments against the Omnipotence paradox?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

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jewgirl
Posts: 20
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10/23/2011 6:12:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

http://www.debate.org...
Mr.Infidel
Posts: 300
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10/23/2011 6:15:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:08:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Kohai/Mr. Infidel, what do you think of InquireTruth's arguments against the Omnipotence paradox?

This was an interesting attempt. Like I said, it all depends on how the theist defines omniscient.

Want to debate the stone paradox?
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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10/23/2011 6:15:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:12:36 PM, jewgirl wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

http://www.debate.org...

You try to argue against the rock paradox...by citing your own debate...which YOU lost...
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Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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10/23/2011 6:18:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:15:00 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:08:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Kohai/Mr. Infidel, what do you think of InquireTruth's arguments against the Omnipotence paradox?

This was an interesting attempt. Like I said, it all depends on how the theist defines omniscient.

Want to debate the stone paradox?

Sorry, but I'm occupied with other matters--including tests (technology class in particular, which I detest)....
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
jewgirl
Posts: 20
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10/23/2011 6:19:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:15:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:12:36 PM, jewgirl wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

http://www.debate.org...

You try to argue against the rock paradox...by citing your own debate...which YOU lost...

Loseing is not evidence of being wrong.
As was pointed out my opponent had the advantage of going first and last.
I whanted to discuss those points in a forum format for that reason.
So if you are willing, I would like to discuss why you think I am wrong.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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10/23/2011 6:24:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:19:09 PM, jewgirl wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:15:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:12:36 PM, jewgirl wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

http://www.debate.org...

You try to argue against the rock paradox...by citing your own debate...which YOU lost...

Loseing is not evidence of being wrong.

But it is one hell of a hint.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/23/2011 7:15:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).:

Well, if you say it is a paradox then you admit that it is a seemingly impossible or contradictory proposition, not that it is necessarily so.
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tvellalott
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10/23/2011 7:32:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?

/thread
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/23/2011 7:58:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The general refutation I've heard is that the argument rests entirely on a God being limited to the laws of logic. Seeing as God is definitionally omnipotent, he is not constrained by such laws.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/23/2011 8:02:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Being omnipotent does not mean that you can do the impossible. This is patently retarded.

If it able to be done, it isn't impossible.
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BennyW
Posts: 698
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10/23/2011 8:40:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

I could basically use the ontological argument to refute this. Since the concept of God creating something too heavy for him to lift is not only impossible in theory but also impossible logically it fails to hold up. Essentially, you set up an argument with flawed logic.
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izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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10/23/2011 8:50:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 8:40:13 PM, BennyW wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

I could basically use the ontological argument to refute this. Since the concept of God creating something too heavy for him to lift is not only impossible in theory but also impossible logically it fails to hold up. Essentially, you set up an argument with flawed logic.

Is god restricted by the rules of logic or did he create them?
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jewgirl
Posts: 20
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10/23/2011 9:24:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:07:06 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
The rock paradox says, "Can God make a rock too big that even he cannot lift it?" I use to think this argument was invalid until I read a verse in Luke that says, "With God all things are possible." Hence I believe it is a valid argument.

Christians, what are you to do about paradoxes that limits god's ability when it says, "With god, all things are possible."

(this does not prove the non-existence of other God's, just the Christian god).

Since god is all powerful, the words, "A stone he can't lift", have no meaning. There can be no such thing; it is like a "square circle" there is no such thing. God cannot create square circles, nor create a stone he can't lift, nor can he check mate with only his king. Bec. Such things are logical impossibilities, and thus make no sense and thus no question has even been proposed.

An alternate approach is even if you say that god cannot create a stone he can't lift. This is not a limitation since it comes from his all powerfulness. There are many things god cannot do such as make a mistake, or improve. This does not show god is not all powerful it's just that there are certain things that only imperfect people can do. And so too is it with the stone.
Mr.Infidel
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10/24/2011 9:56:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
An interesting rebuttal I seen is "Yes, God can create a rock too heavy for him to lift; and then lift the rock."

1) Nothing is impossible for God
2) Illogical things are something
3) Lifting a stone so heavy he can't lift it is an illogical thing
4) Therefore, lifting a stone so heavy he can't lift is possible for God
5) Therefore, God can create a stone so heavy he can't lift it, yet still lift it
6) Therefore, the SP fails in its attempt to disprove the existence of an Omnipotent God.

Quite an interesting argument. I believe that this argument works for the paradox.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/24/2011 10:37:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?

Huh... what... yes... I mean no... I mean what... AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Gileandos
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10/24/2011 10:43:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?

Great way of showing the problem.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/24/2011 10:46:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 10:43:20 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?

Great way of showing the problem.

Did you understand it or do you need it broken down for you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mr.Infidel
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10/24/2011 11:05:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 10:43:20 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?

Great way of showing the problem.

I don't get it.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/24/2011 11:09:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 11:05:56 AM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
At 10/24/2011 10:43:20 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:54:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Kohai, should God be able to make green ideas sleep furiously if he's omnipotent?

Great way of showing the problem.

I don't get it.

If God is omnipotent can he make an object that is both square and circular?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Illegalcombatant
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10/24/2011 11:30:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
With God all things are possible...........except the following things.....err what ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Greyparrot
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10/24/2011 11:36:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 11:30:52 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
With God all things are possible...........except the following things.....err what ?

this
drafterman
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10/24/2011 11:41:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't find the "Rock Paradox" to be a direct statement against gods per se, but rather an illustration of the incoherence of the words typically used to describe gods.

Of course, the point of contention is "anything."

Omnipotence - the power to do anything. Ok, can you do the impossible? If you can then it truly wasn't impossible, if you can't, then there is something you can't do.

Omniscience - knowing everything. Ok, can you know something that is false? If you can, then it wasn't truly false, if you can't, then there is something you don't know.

Etc.

These types of arguments do have their uses. I feel their utility lies in forcing god-believers to describe their god in more accessible terms. Take "God is love" for example. Poetic, but essentially meaningless. If god is to be discussed in a manner that could ever potentially result in some sort of satisfiable conclusion, then we need to be able to articulate, clearly, what is being talked about. Omniscience and omnipotence, as defined above, don't cut it.

However, the argument is not useful in any sort of disproof of god in general, as it just results in redefinition. Omnipotence - the power to do anything that is possible. Omniscience - knowing all that is true, etc. So, at best, it just delays the discussion. However, if we are dealing with a god-concept that is consists only of those types of words, as defined above, then we can rightfully point out that it is a meaingless concept. Word fluff and nothing more.
Kinesis
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10/24/2011 12:41:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
*sigh*

I wish someone would come up with a philosophical point about God that hasn't already been beaten to death a million times before.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/24/2011 12:43:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 12:41:48 PM, Kinesis wrote:
*sigh*

I wish someone would come up with a philosophical point about God that hasn't already been beaten to death a million times before.

You believe every philosophical argument against God has been refuted?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
CosmicAlfonzo
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10/24/2011 1:53:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/24/2011 12:41:48 PM, Kinesis wrote:
*sigh*

I wish someone would come up with a philosophical point about God that hasn't already been beaten to death a million times before.

I do all the time, and when that happens, people find that they can't google an rebuttal, so they just ignore me.

I'm being patient. Maybe one day, someone will pull their head out of their @ss and realize I know what I'm talking about.
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JustCallMeTarzan
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10/24/2011 10:40:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:08:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Kohai/Mr. Infidel, what do you think of InquireTruth's arguments against the Omnipotence paradox?

I commented on this (the OP, not InquireTruth) debate, and later remembered I had seen this thread...

IT's argument is one of the (few) points that he and I agree on. There is no omnipotence paradox... I don't think it's necessarily self-refuting as IT says... I think it's just meaningless. That said, we employ the same reasoning.