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Do theists feel free in theism?

jat93
Posts: 1,440
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10/26/2011 12:57:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
This post is a response and rebuttal to GodSands' post entitled "Do atheists feel free in atheism?" Though it is in response to his post and I quote part of it, I didn't post it on the topic he created because I wanted to start a new one based on the total opposite of his assertions, namely that atheists are attracted to atheism because of the "freedom" that a godless life provides. I've heard this argument all too often from religious teachers and friends. I think that on the contrary, it's theists that are attracted to theism because of the comfort that god and religion provide, and because of the immense pain and fear that a life without god will at first cause someone who grew up indoctrinated in any given religion (and even one who didn't).

At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie. And even if it was true that your comfort in religion seriously resulted from some kind of truth, that would make you a very small minority among religious people. One of the biggest driving forces behind religion's existence in the age of science is as follows:

- Most people who believe in any given religion were raised with that belief by their parents or community. As such, their minds want to do everything they can to sustain their belief in the religion they were raised with. To reject that religion would mean to alienate them from their parents, family, community, and in some cases friends, school, or even country. That's an unpleasant feeling for the vast, vast majority of human beings. This emotional search for justifying religion prevents religious people from seeing their belief system from a clear, unbiased point of view, because people who were raised religious tend to do everything they can to justify their belief in that religion.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

This is a common pathetic "rejection" of atheism offered by the faithful to convince themselves that atheism is only for those who seek vain pursuits of pleasures. After all, without religion, isn't man free from rules, and therefore free to do as he pleases? Not an uncommon argument but it is extraordinarily stupid and shortsighted. Most of all, it's ironic, because as Christopher Hitchens so astutely stated:

"In The Future of an Illusion, Freud made the obvious point that religion suffered from one incurable deficiency: it was too clearly derived from our own desire to escape from or survive death. This critique of wish-thinking is strong and unanswerable."

The irony of your assertion that atheists feel free in atheism is that without the "wish-thinking" of religion that makes its adherents feel ever so protected from the uncertainty and helplessness of blind nature - without a father in the sky who cares for you, listens to all your problems, and guarantees you a spot right up there with him after you die - religion would die instantaneously. In fact, without those silly and naive promises it never would have been born in the first place. Each individual's inevitable contemplation (usually done during childhood) of dying and ceasing to exist is the most absolutely horrific thought any human being can possibly fathom. It's downright terrifying to imagine that someday we all cease to exist, and thus that our time here is necessarily limited. So, I think it's the theists that feel free in theism, not the other way around.

After all, who would ever want to believe that there's no afterlife? It's a simple argument but a heavy one - everyone to some extent wishes to live forever and fears death, so the fact that atheists by default reject religion's promise of an afterlife should show you that it's really the theists who find comfort in their ideology, and crave it to ease the fear of death. It's never a pleasant thing to accept that someday we will all die, our bodies will rot in the ground and the world will continue without our existence. So the fact that the atheist accepts precisely that should be enough to demonstrate that emotions have little to no influence on the decision to reject religion as man-made.

In conclusion, most atheists aren't atheists because atheism makes them feel free, but rather because they believe it's the truth and value intellectual honesty over childish fantasies of an all-powerful daddy in the sky who cares about our each and every need, and who will let us live forever if we act as he sees fit.

Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist.
shift4101
Posts: 50
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10/26/2011 1:36:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I could have just said "no".

Anybody who doesn't think they are limited because of their religion is either wrong or believes in something completely different.

But thanks for the paragraphs I won't bother reading.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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10/26/2011 1:41:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/26/2011 1:36:38 AM, shift4101 wrote:
I could have just said "no".

Anybody who doesn't think they are limited because of their religion is either wrong or believes in something completely different.

Well, I could have just said "yes" and that would have been equally as valid, but I proposed an actual argument to go along with my assertion so believe it or not that makes my "yes" more credible.

While religion offers some limitations, they are nothing in comparison with the "rewards" that religious people crave in return for those limitations: most importantly, a father in heaven who cares about their every need and offers them a spot in heaven for all eternity. Any earthly limitations are trivial compared to that. If you don't want to read the entire thing I'll copy and paste the very end and hopefully that will suffice:

"Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist."
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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10/26/2011 4:26:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, yes ,yes , yes and yes. Amen.

Before I was a slave to my rage and my lust. Also worrying and trying to control every thing and every one around me.

I was once lost, but no I'm found. I once was blind, but now I see.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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10/26/2011 6:49:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/26/2011 12:57:45 AM, jat93 wrote:
This post is a response and rebuttal to GodSands' post entitled "Do atheists feel free in atheism?" Though it is in response to his post and I quote part of it, I didn't post it on the topic he created because I wanted to start a new one based on the total opposite of his assertions, namely that atheists are attracted to atheism because of the "freedom" that a godless life provides. I've heard this argument all too often from religious teachers and friends. I think that on the contrary, it's theists that are attracted to theism because of the comfort that god and religion provide, and because of the immense pain and fear that a life without god will at first cause someone who grew up indoctrinated in any given religion (and even one who didn't).

At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie. And even if it was true that your comfort in religion seriously resulted from some kind of truth, that would make you a very small minority among religious people. One of the biggest driving forces behind religion's existence in the age of science is as follows:

- Most people who believe in any given religion were raised with that belief by their parents or community. As such, their minds want to do everything they can to sustain their belief in the religion they were raised with. To reject that religion would mean to alienate them from their parents, family, community, and in some cases friends, school, or even country. That's an unpleasant feeling for the vast, vast majority of human beings. This emotional search for justifying religion prevents religious people from seeing their belief system from a clear, unbiased point of view, because people who were raised religious tend to do everything they can to justify their belief in that religion.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

This is a common pathetic "rejection" of atheism offered by the faithful to convince themselves that atheism is only for those who seek vain pursuits of pleasures. After all, without religion, isn't man free from rules, and therefore free to do as he pleases? Not an uncommon argument but it is extraordinarily stupid and shortsighted. Most of all, it's ironic, because as Christopher Hitchens so astutely stated:

"In The Future of an Illusion, Freud made the obvious point that religion suffered from one incurable deficiency: it was too clearly derived from our own desire to escape from or survive death. This critique of wish-thinking is strong and unanswerable."

The irony of your assertion that atheists feel free in atheism is that without the "wish-thinking" of religion that makes its adherents feel ever so protected from the uncertainty and helplessness of blind nature - without a father in the sky who cares for you, listens to all your problems, and guarantees you a spot right up there with him after you die - religion would die instantaneously. In fact, without those silly and naive promises it never would have been born in the first place. Each individual's inevitable contemplation (usually done during childhood) of dying and ceasing to exist is the most absolutely horrific thought any human being can possibly fathom. It's downright terrifying to imagine that someday we all cease to exist, and thus that our time here is necessarily limited. So, I think it's the theists that feel free in theism, not the other way around.

After all, who would ever want to believe that there's no afterlife? It's a simple argument but a heavy one - everyone to some extent wishes to live forever and fears death, so the fact that atheists by default reject religion's promise of an afterlife should show you that it's really the theists who find comfort in their ideology, and crave it to ease the fear of death. It's never a pleasant thing to accept that someday we will all die, our bodies will rot in the ground and the world will continue without our existence. So the fact that the atheist accepts precisely that should be enough to demonstrate that emotions have little to no influence on the decision to reject religion as man-made.

In conclusion, most atheists aren't atheists because atheism makes them feel free, but rather because they believe it's the truth and value intellectual honesty over childish fantasies of an all-powerful daddy in the sky who cares about our each and every need, and who will let us live forever if we act as he sees fit.

Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist.

Both theism (religion) and atheism (no God) can and do provide a comfortable life style. But in all sincere honestly, my walk with God has yet to provide much of comfort, all comfort comes in heaven. Simple decisions that I used to make have become dilemmas, and simple feelings have become pains since my rebirth. As Jesus said, that the gate is narrow and the path is hard. And it surely is. Although I can look forward to heaven by training my mind, it isn't actual, unlike the atheists. Where they can feel totally content and simplisity within what they do and know. I no longer experience that, my thoughts are not content with what I do at times, and my actions are no longer simplistic with my intentions. In that, take this as truth or metaphor, God has marked me as His, with His truth and with His knowledge of good and evil, and so, it troubles my mind to just do what other would call natural, normal, fun, safe and sociable.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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10/26/2011 8:10:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/26/2011 4:26:19 PM, jharry wrote:
Yes, yes ,yes , yes and yes. Amen.

Before I was a slave to my rage and my lust. Also worrying and trying to control every thing and every one around me.

I was once lost, but no I'm found. I once was blind, but now I see.

Oh isn't that cute?
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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10/26/2011 8:13:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/26/2011 6:49:17 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/26/2011 12:57:45 AM, jat93 wrote:
This post is a response and rebuttal to GodSands' post entitled "Do atheists feel free in atheism?" Though it is in response to his post and I quote part of it, I didn't post it on the topic he created because I wanted to start a new one based on the total opposite of his assertions, namely that atheists are attracted to atheism because of the "freedom" that a godless life provides. I've heard this argument all too often from religious teachers and friends. I think that on the contrary, it's theists that are attracted to theism because of the comfort that god and religion provide, and because of the immense pain and fear that a life without god will at first cause someone who grew up indoctrinated in any given religion (and even one who didn't).

At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie. And even if it was true that your comfort in religion seriously resulted from some kind of truth, that would make you a very small minority among religious people. One of the biggest driving forces behind religion's existence in the age of science is as follows:

- Most people who believe in any given religion were raised with that belief by their parents or community. As such, their minds want to do everything they can to sustain their belief in the religion they were raised with. To reject that religion would mean to alienate them from their parents, family, community, and in some cases friends, school, or even country. That's an unpleasant feeling for the vast, vast majority of human beings. This emotional search for justifying religion prevents religious people from seeing their belief system from a clear, unbiased point of view, because people who were raised religious tend to do everything they can to justify their belief in that religion.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

This is a common pathetic "rejection" of atheism offered by the faithful to convince themselves that atheism is only for those who seek vain pursuits of pleasures. After all, without religion, isn't man free from rules, and therefore free to do as he pleases? Not an uncommon argument but it is extraordinarily stupid and shortsighted. Most of all, it's ironic, because as Christopher Hitchens so astutely stated:

"In The Future of an Illusion, Freud made the obvious point that religion suffered from one incurable deficiency: it was too clearly derived from our own desire to escape from or survive death. This critique of wish-thinking is strong and unanswerable."

The irony of your assertion that atheists feel free in atheism is that without the "wish-thinking" of religion that makes its adherents feel ever so protected from the uncertainty and helplessness of blind nature - without a father in the sky who cares for you, listens to all your problems, and guarantees you a spot right up there with him after you die - religion would die instantaneously. In fact, without those silly and naive promises it never would have been born in the first place. Each individual's inevitable contemplation (usually done during childhood) of dying and ceasing to exist is the most absolutely horrific thought any human being can possibly fathom. It's downright terrifying to imagine that someday we all cease to exist, and thus that our time here is necessarily limited. So, I think it's the theists that feel free in theism, not the other way around.

After all, who would ever want to believe that there's no afterlife? It's a simple argument but a heavy one - everyone to some extent wishes to live forever and fears death, so the fact that atheists by default reject religion's promise of an afterlife should show you that it's really the theists who find comfort in their ideology, and crave it to ease the fear of death. It's never a pleasant thing to accept that someday we will all die, our bodies will rot in the ground and the world will continue without our existence. So the fact that the atheist accepts precisely that should be enough to demonstrate that emotions have little to no influence on the decision to reject religion as man-made.

In conclusion, most atheists aren't atheists because atheism makes them feel free, but rather because they believe it's the truth and value intellectual honesty over childish fantasies of an all-powerful daddy in the sky who cares about our each and every need, and who will let us live forever if we act as he sees fit.

Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist.

Both theism (religion) and atheism (no God) can and do provide a comfortable life style. But in all sincere honestly, my walk with God has yet to provide much of comfort, all comfort comes in heaven. Simple decisions that I used to make have become dilemmas, and simple feelings have become pains since my rebirth. As Jesus said, that the gate is narrow and the path is hard. And it surely is. Although I can look forward to heaven by training my mind, it isn't actual, unlike the atheists. Where they can feel totally content and simplisity within what they do and know. I no longer experience that, my thoughts are not content with what I do at times, and my actions are no longer simplistic with my intentions. In that, take this as truth or metaphor, God has marked me as His, with His truth and with His knowledge of good and evil, and so, it troubles my mind to just do what other would call natural, normal, fun, safe and sociable.

I don't know if this is what you are insinuating but just because we don't believe in God does not make our lives simplistic. I feel content knowing that I do not know and that there are things that I probably will never know. I would rather live in the reality of accepting that we create meaning in life and that there probably isn't an afterlife nor is there justice after death then live in the fantasy of mysticism.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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10/26/2011 10:25:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/26/2011 8:10:01 PM, rogue wrote:
At 10/26/2011 4:26:19 PM, jharry wrote:
Yes, yes ,yes , yes and yes. Amen.

Before I was a slave to my rage and my lust. Also worrying and trying to control every thing and every one around me.

I was once lost, but no I'm found. I once was blind, but now I see.

Oh isn't that cute?

Why yes, yes I am. Thank you for the compliment.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/26/2011 11:25:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I can't speak for everyone else but I feel free. And it goes back to that question me and jharry asked. What exactly are we missing out on as a theist?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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10/27/2011 1:35:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I personally find theism or atheism a Way of life. If it works for you, good. Continue believing what you do. You can't justify trying to convince others of Your way of life. It works for you, not for them.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/27/2011 5:08:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:35:47 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I personally find theism or atheism a Way of life. If it works for you, good. Continue believing what you do. You can't justify trying to convince others of Your way of life. It works for you, not for them.

Unfortunately more people aren't intelligent as you. They will continue to try and shove their beliefs down your throat even if they do it politely. Christians are big on this. Not sure why atheist do it though.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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10/27/2011 3:59:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/26/2011 8:13:30 PM, rogue wrote:
At 10/26/2011 6:49:17 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/26/2011 12:57:45 AM, jat93 wrote:
This post is a response and rebuttal to GodSands' post entitled "Do atheists feel free in atheism?" Though it is in response to his post and I quote part of it, I didn't post it on the topic he created because I wanted to start a new one based on the total opposite of his assertions, namely that atheists are attracted to atheism because of the "freedom" that a godless life provides. I've heard this argument all too often from religious teachers and friends. I think that on the contrary, it's theists that are attracted to theism because of the comfort that god and religion provide, and because of the immense pain and fear that a life without god will at first cause someone who grew up indoctrinated in any given religion (and even one who didn't).

At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie. And even if it was true that your comfort in religion seriously resulted from some kind of truth, that would make you a very small minority among religious people. One of the biggest driving forces behind religion's existence in the age of science is as follows:

- Most people who believe in any given religion were raised with that belief by their parents or community. As such, their minds want to do everything they can to sustain their belief in the religion they were raised with. To reject that religion would mean to alienate them from their parents, family, community, and in some cases friends, school, or even country. That's an unpleasant feeling for the vast, vast majority of human beings. This emotional search for justifying religion prevents religious people from seeing their belief system from a clear, unbiased point of view, because people who were raised religious tend to do everything they can to justify their belief in that religion.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

This is a common pathetic "rejection" of atheism offered by the faithful to convince themselves that atheism is only for those who seek vain pursuits of pleasures. After all, without religion, isn't man free from rules, and therefore free to do as he pleases? Not an uncommon argument but it is extraordinarily stupid and shortsighted. Most of all, it's ironic, because as Christopher Hitchens so astutely stated:

"In The Future of an Illusion, Freud made the obvious point that religion suffered from one incurable deficiency: it was too clearly derived from our own desire to escape from or survive death. This critique of wish-thinking is strong and unanswerable."

The irony of your assertion that atheists feel free in atheism is that without the "wish-thinking" of religion that makes its adherents feel ever so protected from the uncertainty and helplessness of blind nature - without a father in the sky who cares for you, listens to all your problems, and guarantees you a spot right up there with him after you die - religion would die instantaneously. In fact, without those silly and naive promises it never would have been born in the first place. Each individual's inevitable contemplation (usually done during childhood) of dying and ceasing to exist is the most absolutely horrific thought any human being can possibly fathom. It's downright terrifying to imagine that someday we all cease to exist, and thus that our time here is necessarily limited. So, I think it's the theists that feel free in theism, not the other way around.

After all, who would ever want to believe that there's no afterlife? It's a simple argument but a heavy one - everyone to some extent wishes to live forever and fears death, so the fact that atheists by default reject religion's promise of an afterlife should show you that it's really the theists who find comfort in their ideology, and crave it to ease the fear of death. It's never a pleasant thing to accept that someday we will all die, our bodies will rot in the ground and the world will continue without our existence. So the fact that the atheist accepts precisely that should be enough to demonstrate that emotions have little to no influence on the decision to reject religion as man-made.

In conclusion, most atheists aren't atheists because atheism makes them feel free, but rather because they believe it's the truth and value intellectual honesty over childish fantasies of an all-powerful daddy in the sky who cares about our each and every need, and who will let us live forever if we act as he sees fit.

Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist.

Both theism (religion) and atheism (no God) can and do provide a comfortable life style. But in all sincere honestly, my walk with God has yet to provide much of comfort, all comfort comes in heaven. Simple decisions that I used to make have become dilemmas, and simple feelings have become pains since my rebirth. As Jesus said, that the gate is narrow and the path is hard. And it surely is. Although I can look forward to heaven by training my mind, it isn't actual, unlike the atheists. Where they can feel totally content and simplicity within what they do and know. I no longer experience that, my thoughts are not content with what I do at times, and my actions are no longer simplistic with my intentions. In that, take this as truth or metaphor, God has marked me as His, with His truth and with His knowledge of good and evil, and so, it troubles my mind to just do what other would call natural, normal, fun, safe and sociable.

I don't know if this is what you are insinuating but just because we don't believe in God does not make our lives simplistic. I feel content knowing that I do not know and that there are things that I probably will never know. I would rather live in the reality of accepting that we create meaning in life and that there probably isn't an afterlife nor is there justice after death then live in the fantasy of mysticism.

Simplistic Rouge, as in pleasure is easy, straight forward living, live then die, no more. And in that you can exult and express yourself within any of the Seven.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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10/27/2011 4:05:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:35:47 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I personally find theism or atheism a Way of life. If it works for you, good. Continue believing what you do. You can't justify trying to convince others of Your way of life. It works for you, not for them.

Exactly what about making an attempt to show someone that you have a better way of doing things is so inherently unjustifiable?
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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10/27/2011 9:02:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 3:59:58 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/26/2011 8:13:30 PM, rogue wrote:
At 10/26/2011 6:49:17 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/26/2011 12:57:45 AM, jat93 wrote:
This post is a response and rebuttal to GodSands' post entitled "Do atheists feel free in atheism?" Though it is in response to his post and I quote part of it, I didn't post it on the topic he created because I wanted to start a new one based on the total opposite of his assertions, namely that atheists are attracted to atheism because of the "freedom" that a godless life provides. I've heard this argument all too often from religious teachers and friends. I think that on the contrary, it's theists that are attracted to theism because of the comfort that god and religion provide, and because of the immense pain and fear that a life without god will at first cause someone who grew up indoctrinated in any given religion (and even one who didn't).

At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie. And even if it was true that your comfort in religion seriously resulted from some kind of truth, that would make you a very small minority among religious people. One of the biggest driving forces behind religion's existence in the age of science is as follows:

- Most people who believe in any given religion were raised with that belief by their parents or community. As such, their minds want to do everything they can to sustain their belief in the religion they were raised with. To reject that religion would mean to alienate them from their parents, family, community, and in some cases friends, school, or even country. That's an unpleasant feeling for the vast, vast majority of human beings. This emotional search for justifying religion prevents religious people from seeing their belief system from a clear, unbiased point of view, because people who were raised religious tend to do everything they can to justify their belief in that religion.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

This is a common pathetic "rejection" of atheism offered by the faithful to convince themselves that atheism is only for those who seek vain pursuits of pleasures. After all, without religion, isn't man free from rules, and therefore free to do as he pleases? Not an uncommon argument but it is extraordinarily stupid and shortsighted. Most of all, it's ironic, because as Christopher Hitchens so astutely stated:

"In The Future of an Illusion, Freud made the obvious point that religion suffered from one incurable deficiency: it was too clearly derived from our own desire to escape from or survive death. This critique of wish-thinking is strong and unanswerable."

The irony of your assertion that atheists feel free in atheism is that without the "wish-thinking" of religion that makes its adherents feel ever so protected from the uncertainty and helplessness of blind nature - without a father in the sky who cares for you, listens to all your problems, and guarantees you a spot right up there with him after you die - religion would die instantaneously. In fact, without those silly and naive promises it never would have been born in the first place. Each individual's inevitable contemplation (usually done during childhood) of dying and ceasing to exist is the most absolutely horrific thought any human being can possibly fathom. It's downright terrifying to imagine that someday we all cease to exist, and thus that our time here is necessarily limited. So, I think it's the theists that feel free in theism, not the other way around.

After all, who would ever want to believe that there's no afterlife? It's a simple argument but a heavy one - everyone to some extent wishes to live forever and fears death, so the fact that atheists by default reject religion's promise of an afterlife should show you that it's really the theists who find comfort in their ideology, and crave it to ease the fear of death. It's never a pleasant thing to accept that someday we will all die, our bodies will rot in the ground and the world will continue without our existence. So the fact that the atheist accepts precisely that should be enough to demonstrate that emotions have little to no influence on the decision to reject religion as man-made.

In conclusion, most atheists aren't atheists because atheism makes them feel free, but rather because they believe it's the truth and value intellectual honesty over childish fantasies of an all-powerful daddy in the sky who cares about our each and every need, and who will let us live forever if we act as he sees fit.

Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist.

Both theism (religion) and atheism (no God) can and do provide a comfortable life style. But in all sincere honestly, my walk with God has yet to provide much of comfort, all comfort comes in heaven. Simple decisions that I used to make have become dilemmas, and simple feelings have become pains since my rebirth. As Jesus said, that the gate is narrow and the path is hard. And it surely is. Although I can look forward to heaven by training my mind, it isn't actual, unlike the atheists. Where they can feel totally content and simplicity within what they do and know. I no longer experience that, my thoughts are not content with what I do at times, and my actions are no longer simplistic with my intentions. In that, take this as truth or metaphor, God has marked me as His, with His truth and with His knowledge of good and evil, and so, it troubles my mind to just do what other would call natural, normal, fun, safe and sociable.

I don't know if this is what you are insinuating but just because we don't believe in God does not make our lives simplistic. I feel content knowing that I do not know and that there are things that I probably will never know. I would rather live in the reality of accepting that we create meaning in life and that there probably isn't an afterlife nor is there justice after death then live in the fantasy of mysticism.

Simplistic Rouge, as in pleasure is easy, straight forward living, live then die, no more. And in that you can exult and express yourself within any of the Seven.

How many times do I have to explain this? ATHEISTS DON'T BECOME AMORAL AND LOSE THEIR CONSCIOUSES. Living is never straightforward no matter what you believe. When you say "seven" I assume you mean the seven deadly sins?
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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10/27/2011 9:03:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:35:47 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I personally find theism or atheism a Way of life. If it works for you, good. Continue believing what you do. You can't justify trying to convince others of Your way of life. It works for you, not for them.

And if you religion drives you to discriminate and hate is it still ok?
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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10/27/2011 9:28:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 9:02:03 PM, rogue wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:59:58 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/26/2011 8:13:30 PM, rogue wrote:
At 10/26/2011 6:49:17 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/26/2011 12:57:45 AM, jat93 wrote:
This post is a response and rebuttal to GodSands' post entitled "Do atheists feel free in atheism?" Though it is in response to his post and I quote part of it, I didn't post it on the topic he created because I wanted to start a new one based on the total opposite of his assertions, namely that atheists are attracted to atheism because of the "freedom" that a godless life provides. I've heard this argument all too often from religious teachers and friends. I think that on the contrary, it's theists that are attracted to theism because of the comfort that god and religion provide, and because of the immense pain and fear that a life without god will at first cause someone who grew up indoctrinated in any given religion (and even one who didn't).

At 10/17/2011 10:00:45 PM, GodSands wrote:

I find comfort in God but not the type of comfort that tells me that I can go about life all happy because I have some sort of a purpose. The comfort I have is found is in the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's a lie. And even if it was true that your comfort in religion seriously resulted from some kind of truth, that would make you a very small minority among religious people. One of the biggest driving forces behind religion's existence in the age of science is as follows:

- Most people who believe in any given religion were raised with that belief by their parents or community. As such, their minds want to do everything they can to sustain their belief in the religion they were raised with. To reject that religion would mean to alienate them from their parents, family, community, and in some cases friends, school, or even country. That's an unpleasant feeling for the vast, vast majority of human beings. This emotional search for justifying religion prevents religious people from seeing their belief system from a clear, unbiased point of view, because people who were raised religious tend to do everything they can to justify their belief in that religion.

Secularists find comfort in sin, in the opposite sex especially. Feel slightly down? Find yourself a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Get yourself some attention from the other sex. It doesn't give you a purpose but it gives you pleasure, fun, enjoyment. Free to do what you want, in the comfort that no god can stop you in your tracks, let alone judge you when you are dead. And in that, there is freedom and comfort, right?

This is a common pathetic "rejection" of atheism offered by the faithful to convince themselves that atheism is only for those who seek vain pursuits of pleasures. After all, without religion, isn't man free from rules, and therefore free to do as he pleases? Not an uncommon argument but it is extraordinarily stupid and shortsighted. Most of all, it's ironic, because as Christopher Hitchens so astutely stated:

"In The Future of an Illusion, Freud made the obvious point that religion suffered from one incurable deficiency: it was too clearly derived from our own desire to escape from or survive death. This critique of wish-thinking is strong and unanswerable."

The irony of your assertion that atheists feel free in atheism is that without the "wish-thinking" of religion that makes its adherents feel ever so protected from the uncertainty and helplessness of blind nature - without a father in the sky who cares for you, listens to all your problems, and guarantees you a spot right up there with him after you die - religion would die instantaneously. In fact, without those silly and naive promises it never would have been born in the first place. Each individual's inevitable contemplation (usually done during childhood) of dying and ceasing to exist is the most absolutely horrific thought any human being can possibly fathom. It's downright terrifying to imagine that someday we all cease to exist, and thus that our time here is necessarily limited. So, I think it's the theists that feel free in theism, not the other way around.

After all, who would ever want to believe that there's no afterlife? It's a simple argument but a heavy one - everyone to some extent wishes to live forever and fears death, so the fact that atheists by default reject religion's promise of an afterlife should show you that it's really the theists who find comfort in their ideology, and crave it to ease the fear of death. It's never a pleasant thing to accept that someday we will all die, our bodies will rot in the ground and the world will continue without our existence. So the fact that the atheist accepts precisely that should be enough to demonstrate that emotions have little to no influence on the decision to reject religion as man-made.

In conclusion, most atheists aren't atheists because atheism makes them feel free, but rather because they believe it's the truth and value intellectual honesty over childish fantasies of an all-powerful daddy in the sky who cares about our each and every need, and who will let us live forever if we act as he sees fit.

Religion thrives primarily on two things:
1) the basic human desire to believe what we have been raised to believe by our families, communities, schools, friends, countries, etc. and the immense pain and alienation that would necessarily result from not believing those things
2) the basic human fear of death and our strong desire to somehow avoid it, and thus also avoid or minimize the importance of nature's randomness, and the helpless feeling that it induces in the mind of man.

Without those two things religion would immediately cease to exist.

Both theism (religion) and atheism (no God) can and do provide a comfortable life style. But in all sincere honestly, my walk with God has yet to provide much of comfort, all comfort comes in heaven. Simple decisions that I used to make have become dilemmas, and simple feelings have become pains since my rebirth. As Jesus said, that the gate is narrow and the path is hard. And it surely is. Although I can look forward to heaven by training my mind, it isn't actual, unlike the atheists. Where they can feel totally content and simplicity within what they do and know. I no longer experience that, my thoughts are not content with what I do at times, and my actions are no longer simplistic with my intentions. In that, take this as truth or metaphor, God has marked me as His, with His truth and with His knowledge of good and evil, and so, it troubles my mind to just do what other would call natural, normal, fun, safe and sociable.

I don't know if this is what you are insinuating but just because we don't believe in God does not make our lives simplistic. I feel content knowing that I do not know and that there are things that I probably will never know. I would rather live in the reality of accepting that we create meaning in life and that there probably isn't an afterlife nor is there justice after death then live in the fantasy of mysticism.

Simplistic Rouge, as in pleasure is easy, straight forward living, live then die, no more. And in that you can exult and express yourself within any of the Seven.

How many times do I have to explain this? ATHEISTS DON'T BECOME AMORAL AND LOSE THEIR CONSCIOUSES. Living is never straightforward no matter what you believe. When you say "seven" I assume you mean the seven deadly sins?

The the deadly ones.