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False Religions

Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/27/2011 1:31:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Almost everyone agrees that there are false religions, as they often make mutually exclusive claims this is quite basic logic. Either one religion, or a religious grouping is correct or none are.

If Mormonism is correct than Catholicism is at best only partially correct, Islam has but a mere glint of truth and the worship of Athrodite is utterly false.

Every religion has people amongst it that are sincere and rational (otherwise rational if you will). Most religions claim supernatural experience.

If these sincere, rational people who claim supernatural experience disagree with each other then one of the following must be true.
a) Some of them are wrong but some of them are right.
b) They are all wrong.

How do we tell the difference?

In a thousand years time, after mankind has endured nuclear apocalypse and the zombie plague is it not possible that millions of people will be members of the Church of Potter, revering Harry Potter as the saviour of mankind.

Is it not possible that these people will cite the same emotive and logical arguments that Christians employ right now? Is it not possible that they will cite archeological evidence, that there will be an official dig site at the supposed ruins of Hogwarts. It is not possible that some of the members of the Church will claim supernatural experience?

How do the religious determine what is true, what standard of evidence or test of faith do you guys have?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ren
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10/27/2011 1:55:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:31:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Almost everyone agrees that there are false religions, as they often make mutually exclusive claims this is quite basic logic. Either one religion, or a religious grouping is correct or none are.

If Mormonism is correct than Catholicism is at best only partially correct, Islam has but a mere glint of truth and the worship of Athrodite is utterly false.

Every religion has people amongst it that are sincere and rational (otherwise rational if you will). Most religions claim supernatural experience.

If these sincere, rational people who claim supernatural experience disagree with each other then one of the following must be true.
a) Some of them are wrong but some of them are right.
b) They are all wrong.

How do we tell the difference?

In a thousand years time, after mankind has endured nuclear apocalypse and the zombie plague is it not possible that millions of people will be members of the Church of Potter, revering Harry Potter as the saviour of mankind.

Is it not possible that these people will cite the same emotive and logical arguments that Christians employ right now? Is it not possible that they will cite archeological evidence, that there will be an official dig site at the supposed ruins of Hogwarts. It is not possible that some of the members of the Church will claim supernatural experience?

How do the religious determine what is true, what standard of evidence or test of faith do you guys have?

There's two things I'd like to approach in the post.

First, your conclusions about the separatism and elitism of religion. I completely agree with that, and my opinion is that religious leaders institute such perspectives as political devices. Christian doctrine completely contradicts such premises. In the Bible, God and Jesus have all sorts of opinions, but clearly state that it is not our place to retain those same perspectives. We are to love one another, with no contingencies regarding history, behavior, appearance, or beliefs, and we are not to judge, as we are just as guilty in our own way.

That said, I have never claimed, nor do I believe "nonbelievers" are "going to Hell," and that they're "guilty" or "worse off than I," spiritually speaking. It is not my place to make such determinations -- in other words, how in the hell would I know? I once argued the ethics of God sending people to Hell in the first place, but that, to me, was an argument about ethics as it pertains to Christian doctrine--not an argument for or against Christianity, as my opponent seemed to interpret it.

Anyway, as far as experiencing supernatural things, for me it is much like other abstractions that we feel outside of our senses, such as inspiration, emotion, or dedication. Some religions call for meditation, others, prayer--however you explore spirituality, as you progress, the feeling is gradual and eventually, overwhelming. It begins to pervade your everyday life, intertwining with your engagements, bringing you closer to enlightenment and peace with yourself and your personal construct. Unfortunately, you often have your demons to fight, as well. Dealing with that feels something like insanity or a drug binge. It's a mindfk and it's very emotional. But, it makes you a better person overall, if it doesn't consume you.

That's my experience, if it made any sense at all.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 2:02:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@Ren

You ask how in the hell are you suppoed to know who goes to Hell and who doesn't. I know the answer. You open up your Bible and find out because it's more than clear as to who will go to Hell. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable telling people they'll go to hell, but that's your religion, own up to it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ren
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10/27/2011 2:23:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:02:50 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
@Ren

You ask how in the hell are you suppoed to know who goes to Hell and who doesn't. I know the answer. You open up your Bible and find out because it's more than clear as to who will go to Hell. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable telling people they'll go to hell, but that's your religion, own up to it.

That's not true at all. The Bible makes assertions about God's judgements and who He casts judgements upon. False teachers, hypocrites, and the like, etc. etc... He does not lay out any sort of means for judging others' accountability and whether they're going to Hell. Conversely, God instructed to seek purity and perfection before even thinking of criticizing someone else, and Jesus instructed to love everyone else as you love yourself. I haven't the slightest clue who will be going to Hell.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:23:02 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:02:50 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
@Ren

You ask how in the hell are you suppoed to know who goes to Hell and who doesn't. I know the answer. You open up your Bible and find out because it's more than clear as to who will go to Hell. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable telling people they'll go to hell, but that's your religion, own up to it.

That's not true at all. The Bible makes assertions about God's judgements and who He casts judgements upon. False teachers, hypocrites, and the like, etc. etc... He does not lay out any sort of means for judging others' accountability and whether they're going to Hell. Conversely, God instructed to seek purity and perfection before even thinking of criticizing someone else, and Jesus instructed to love everyone else as you love yourself. I haven't the slightest clue who will be going to Hell.

You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.
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It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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10/27/2011 3:42:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago


You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

The Bible identifies no one as being in Hell, but does condemn various behaviors. To tell an individual they will go to Hell, based upon your reading of a text and a subjective belief construct denies the Doctrine of All Mainstream Christian theologies: Judgement is reserved to God.

There are no "False Religions" only False Prophets.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/27/2011 3:45:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 3:42:47 PM, logicrules wrote:


You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

The Bible identifies no one as being in Hell, but does condemn various behaviors. To tell an individual they will go to Hell, based upon your reading of a text and a subjective belief construct denies the Doctrine of All Mainstream Christian theologies: Judgement is reserved to God.

There are no "False Religions" only False Prophets.

(:
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell. If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Diagoras
Posts: 187
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10/27/2011 4:12:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell. If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

Christians don't like it when you point out how hateful their "loving god" really is.
Ren
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10/27/2011 4:29:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

What? The only way that you can possibly KNOW that someone is going to Hell is to JUDGE what they've done or who they are and therefore CONDEMN them to it.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell.

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

False.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Diagoras
Posts: 187
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10/27/2011 4:35:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:29:54 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

What? The only way that you can possibly KNOW that someone is going to Hell is to JUDGE what they've done or who they are and therefore CONDEMN them to it.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell.

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

False.

Read your own freakin definitions. We don't have the power to "sentence to punishment" but we know that if you do X, god will throw your asss to hell.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/27/2011 4:37:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:35:48 PM, Diagoras wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:29:54 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

What? The only way that you can possibly KNOW that someone is going to Hell is to JUDGE what they've done or who they are and therefore CONDEMN them to it.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell.

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

False.

Read your own freakin definitions. We don't have the power to "sentence to punishment" but we know that if you do X, god will throw your asss to hell.

Lol, way to cherrypick.

Semicolons separate two different thoughts, making the first part of that sentence a distinct definition. "To pronounce guilty" = "know that God will throw your @ss in Hell."
Ren
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10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:38:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:29:54 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

What? The only way that you can possibly KNOW that someone is going to Hell is to JUDGE what they've done or who they are and therefore CONDEMN them to it.

The Bible tells you what Gods judgment is concerning certain actions and God specifically states which actions lead to Hell.

Since you know how to read, you can identify and figure out which people God will condemn to Hell.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell.

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

Ok... And?

If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

False.

Please demonstrate why that is false.

If you're allowed to observe someones actions and you're allowed to recite the Bible, then I don't see why you can't tell a person that their actions according to the Bible result in Hell.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ren
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10/27/2011 4:42:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:38:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Bible tells you what Gods judgment is concerning certain actions and God specifically states which actions lead to Hell.

Since you know how to read, you can identify and figure out which people God will condemn to Hell.

The Bible also states that every single human being that has ever existed will commit those actions that lead to Hell, and that Jesus' sacrifice was meant to alleviate that guilt. Therefore, only God can determine who will be going to Hell; we are incapable of such determinations.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell.

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

Ok... And?

I'm sorry, you were responding as though you didn't understand what condemn meant. You literally said the equivalent of, "I didn't say you can condemn, I said that you can condemn."

If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

False.

Please demonstrate why that is false.

If you're allowed to observe someones actions and you're allowed to recite the Bible, then I don't see why you can't tell a person that their actions according to the Bible result in Hell.

Because the Bible presents no instructions for how you can determine whether someone else will go to Hell.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ren
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10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians. Jesus was Jewish.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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10/27/2011 4:47:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians. Jesus was Jewish.

By that, do you mean that everyone is saved, or that everyone has the chance to be saved?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 4:48:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians. Jesus was Jewish.

As I recall from my hazy Sunday school memories 12-15 years ago, Jesus died to clear original sin. Post-Crucifixion sin still tallies against the soul until repentance or acceptance of Christ as savior, right? And if the soul isn't pure at the time of passing...what happens?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
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10/27/2011 4:52:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:47:17 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians. Jesus was Jewish.

By that, do you mean that everyone is saved, or that everyone has the chance to be saved?

Let me explain.

According to the Bible, there are certain actions that are punishable by time in Hell until the Final Judgement. However, everyone will commit at least some of those actions, therefore, everyone deserves to go to Hell. Jesus was sacrificed so that God can determine whether each of us will go to Heaven or Hell individually. There is no way for us to determine how God makes that determination, or what that determination will be.
Ren
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10/27/2011 4:54:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:48:01 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians. Jesus was Jewish.

As I recall from my hazy Sunday school memories 12-15 years ago, Jesus died to clear original sin. Post-Crucifixion sin still tallies against the soul until repentance or acceptance of Christ as savior, right? And if the soul isn't pure at the time of passing...what happens?

No, it wasn't to clear "original sin," it was to clear the sin we will inevitably commit.

In essence, we all deserve to go to Hell, but God will accept some of us anyway.
Diagoras
Posts: 187
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10/27/2011 4:54:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:37:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:35:48 PM, Diagoras wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:29:54 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:02:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:42:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:27:17 PM, izbo10 wrote:
You might want to read the bible again it makes very clear assertions of who burns.

Please quote and cite the Bible verse(s) that outline specifically how to judge and condemn someone to Hell. Ensure that it clearly outlines specific determinants, exceptions, permissible evidence, on which party the burden of proof lay, and viable consensus, if any.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that you have the ability to judge and and condemn someone to hell. Read my post. You asked how you can KNOW who's going to Hell and I said that you can know who's going to Hell by consulting the Bible.

What? The only way that you can possibly KNOW that someone is going to Hell is to JUDGE what they've done or who they are and therefore CONDEMN them to it.

I didn't say you can personally condemn someone to Hell, but you can identify who will go to Hell.

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.

If a person says they are a nonbeliever, you can tell them that according to the Bible they're going to Hell.

False.

Read your own freakin definitions. We don't have the power to "sentence to punishment" but we know that if you do X, god will throw your asss to hell.

Lol, way to cherrypick.

Semicolons separate two different thoughts, making the first part of that sentence a distinct definition. "To pronounce guilty" = "know that God will throw your @ss in Hell."

You're misusing the word. I can tell you that if you kill someone, you will go to jail. That doesn't mean that I personally am condeming you to jail.

jesus christ, you're think.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:54:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians.

Well that's great! Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and Aton LeVey are all saved!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/27/2011 4:55:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:54:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians.

Well that's great! Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and Aton LeVey are all saved!

problem?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/27/2011 4:56:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:54:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians.

Well that's great! Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and Aton LeVey are all saved!

I never once said that being "saved" means you're going to Heaven.
Diagoras
Posts: 187
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10/27/2011 4:57:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:54:00 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:48:01 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians. Jesus was Jewish.

As I recall from my hazy Sunday school memories 12-15 years ago, Jesus died to clear original sin. Post-Crucifixion sin still tallies against the soul until repentance or acceptance of Christ as savior, right? And if the soul isn't pure at the time of passing...what happens?

No, it wasn't to clear "original sin," it was to clear the sin we will inevitably commit.

In essence, we all deserve to go to Hell, but God will accept some of us anyway.

Great, now god uses the imigration lottery to get into heaven.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:58:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:55:38 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:54:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:43:21 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:42:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:38:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:34:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Can someone tell me something? What exactly does "being saved" or "salvation" mean in the context of the Bible? I assumed that it meant being spared from hell.

Yes, it does. Salvation came in the form of Jesus' sacrifice, within the context of the Bible.

Then you concede that those who are not saved go to Hell. Since you can simply ask if a person is saved or not, you can tell that person whether they'll go to Hell or not.

Everyone is saved. Jesus came to save humanity, not Christians.

Well that's great! Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and Aton LeVey are all saved!

problem?

For a Christian, sure. I particularly am not jealous that they would be saved nor do I care to be "saved." I place no significance on the Christian idea of being saved.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/27/2011 4:59:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:54:10 PM, Diagoras wrote:
You're misusing the word.

No, I'm not.

I can tell you that if you kill someone, you will go to jail.

Lol, are you sure about that? Since you are not a judge, nor a jury, you cannot make that condemnation. There are many people that have murdered and never went to jail.

That doesn't mean that I personally am condeming you to jail.

Yes, it would. However, it would be a false condemnation, because much like determining whether someone will go to Hell, you're in no position to determine whether someone will go to jail for murder unless you are in the jury of their trial.

jesus christ, you're think.

Wat?