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Catholics are going to heaven?

gr33k_fr33k5
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11/3/2011 9:33:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, just wondering, are Catholics going to heaven? The ones I've talked to certainly do not believe in the Christianity that I believe in and hence are not going to heaven in my mind.

I suppose my question is, do Catholics agree that the only people getting into heaven are those that believe Christ is the only way. Or do you believe that even those who do not follow Christ are going into heaven.

For me this is a make or break point since the Bible is very clear. I know my Catholic friends do not walk a Christian life, I see them abandoning the traditions of their parents only to return in later years when they want some extra stability.

Know a tree by its fruit and this ^^ is not the fruit of a God-fearing Christian.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/3/2011 9:37:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Catholics have to believe in a God that is at least a little liberal due to the massive inconsistencies in their own theology. By definition Roman Catholicism can not be 100% correct.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
logicrules
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11/3/2011 10:05:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 9:33:13 AM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
So, just wondering, are Catholics going to heaven? The ones I've talked to certainly do not believe in the Christianity that I believe in and hence are not going to heaven in my mind.

I suppose my question is, do Catholics agree that the only people getting into heaven are those that believe Christ is the only way. Or do you believe that even those who do not follow Christ are going into heaven.

For me this is a make or break point since the Bible is very clear. I know my Catholic friends do not walk a Christian life, I see them abandoning the traditions of their parents only to return in later years when they want some extra stability.

Know a tree by its fruit and this ^^ is not the fruit of a God-fearing Christian.

This is so out there. What theology do you accept? (no judgement just a point of understanding) The bible....which one? Is clear...To whom?

Catholics believe that CAN go to heaven but that the there is judgement. Perhaps you reject judgement, but I have no way to know.
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
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11/3/2011 11:04:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 9:33:13 AM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
So, just wondering, are Catholics going to heaven? The ones I've talked to certainly do not believe in the Christianity that I believe in and hence are not going to heaven in my mind.

I suppose my question is, do Catholics agree that the only people getting into heaven are those that believe Christ is the only way. Or do you believe that even those who do not follow Christ are going into heaven.

Yes. That is there doctrine
For me this is a make or break point since the Bible is very clear. I know my Catholic friends do not walk a Christian life, I see them abandoning the traditions of their parents only to return in later years when they want some extra stability.

Yes because the Catholics put too much BS before the simple key to salvation. Jesus Christ. Unfortunately most Catholics turn atheist. I myself and a former catholic that converted to Protestantism. I am now much more religious than I was before.

Know a tree by its fruit and this ^^ is not the fruit of a God-fearing Christian.

Most of the time yes.
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EmpiricalFact
Posts: 19
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11/3/2011 11:12:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 9:33:13 AM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
So, just wondering, are Catholics going to heaven? The ones I've talked to certainly do not believe in the Christianity that I believe in and hence are not going to heaven in my mind.

I suppose my question is, do Catholics agree that the only people getting into heaven are those that believe Christ is the only way. Or do you believe that even those who do not follow Christ are going into heaven.

For me this is a make or break point since the Bible is very clear. I know my Catholic friends do not walk a Christian life, I see them abandoning the traditions of their parents only to return in later years when they want some extra stability.

Know a tree by its fruit and this ^^ is not the fruit of a God-fearing Christian.

The bible clearly states that savation can only be achieved trough christ (im not going to quote it unless requested), who gave his life in order to rid our sins from our lives.Therefore heaven its only achieved by those who believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation.so if your friends dont believe in Jesus (wich i find illogical if they are catholic,because it goes against the N.T. of the bible) they are not going to heaven.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/3/2011 12:39:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 11:12:35 AM, EmpiricalFact wrote:
At 11/3/2011 9:33:13 AM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
So, just wondering, are Catholics going to heaven? The ones I've talked to certainly do not believe in the Christianity that I believe in and hence are not going to heaven in my mind.

I suppose my question is, do Catholics agree that the only people getting into heaven are those that believe Christ is the only way. Or do you believe that even those who do not follow Christ are going into heaven.

For me this is a make or break point since the Bible is very clear. I know my Catholic friends do not walk a Christian life, I see them abandoning the traditions of their parents only to return in later years when they want some extra stability.

Know a tree by its fruit and this ^^ is not the fruit of a God-fearing Christian.

The bible clearly states that savation can only be achieved trough christ (im not going to quote it unless requested), who gave his life in order to rid our sins from our lives.Therefore heaven its only achieved by those who believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation.so if your friends dont believe in Jesus (wich i find illogical if they are catholic,because it goes against the N.T. of the bible) they are not going to heaven.

Catholics believe in Jesus the Christ....

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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11/3/2011 12:40:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'll admit it, my theology is screwed up on some points, but I'm working on it .. . I call my self a Christian because I agree with all the major points of the religion, namely:

1) Jesus is the only way to heaven.
2) The Bible is the closest thing we have to absolute truth and as such ought to be treated as absolute truth.
3) Jesus acts as a mediator for us during judgment

I believe that if someone honestly believes those three points then they are a Christian, the 2nd point might not be a necessary belief, however, its important. The rest of my faith comes from logical deductions and faith-based assumptions.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
EmpiricalFact
Posts: 19
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11/3/2011 1:02:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 12:40:18 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
I'll admit it, my theology is screwed up on some points, but I'm working on it .. . I call my self a Christian because I agree with all the major points of the religion, namely:

1) Jesus is the only way to heaven.
2) The Bible is the closest thing we have to absolute truth and as such ought to be treated as absolute truth.
3) Jesus acts as a mediator for us during judgment

I believe that if someone honestly believes those three points then they are a Christian, the 2nd point might not be a necessary belief, however, its important. The rest of my faith comes from logical deductions and faith-based assumptions.
I agree, In all of those points you just mentioned.
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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11/3/2011 1:22:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 12:40:18 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
I'll admit it, my theology is screwed up on some points, but I'm working on it .. . I call my self a Christian because I agree with all the major points of the religion, namely:

1) Jesus is the only way to heaven.
2) The Bible is the closest thing we have to absolute truth and as such ought to be treated as absolute truth.
3) Jesus acts as a mediator for us during judgment

I believe that if someone honestly believes those three points then they are a Christian, the 2nd point might not be a necessary belief, however, its important. The rest of my faith comes from logical deductions and faith-based assumptions.

Just curious, but how did you come to that conclusion?
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
Mikeee
Posts: 234
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11/3/2011 3:19:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 12:40:18 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
I'll admit it, my theology is screwed up on some points, but I'm working on it .. . I call my self a Christian because I agree with all the major points of the religion, namely:

1) Jesus is the only way to heaven.
2) The Bible is the closest thing we have to absolute truth and as such ought to be treated as absolute truth.
3) Jesus acts as a mediator for us during judgment

I believe that if someone honestly believes those three points then they are a Christian, the 2nd point might not be a necessary belief, however, its important. The rest of my faith comes from logical deductions and faith-based assumptions.

Do you think it would be fair of God to send people who led good and moral lives, but did not follow Jesus because they never were exposed to it? To me, saying ONLY Christians or believers of Jesus will go to heaven, seems irrational and more like a method to convert people, rather than actual truth. If there is a heaven, and you live the most moral life you can, I'm sure you will be accepted into heaven regardless of what faith you believe...
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/3/2011 4:17:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Where does this garbage about what Roman Catholics believe come from?
1, Catholics believe in God
2. They believe Jesus was God and the Spirit...See Apostles and Nicean Creeds for most catholic Dogma
3. Catholics believe anyone can get to heaven, its up to God not us

Feel free to ask, you don't have to agree, just don't make stuff up.
EmpiricalFact
Posts: 19
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11/3/2011 4:56:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 4:17:45 PM, logicrules wrote:
Where does this garbage about what Roman Catholics believe come from?
1, Catholics believe in God
2. They believe Jesus was God and the Spirit...See Apostles and Nicean Creeds for most catholic Dogma
3. Catholics believe anyone can get to heaven, its up to God not us

Feel free to ask, you don't have to agree, just don't make stuff up.
I know catholic people bealieve In all that, however
i dont agree with them in the 3rd point you mentioned. Why?,well because if God is the only one that chooses who goes into heaven, then why did Christ came for? He said it himself he is the only path And nobody goes to the father ( heaven)if not trough Jesus.so if only God decides who goes to heaven Jesus has no use,because whether man believe in him or not God might take them to heaven if he pleases.
logicrules
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11/3/2011 6:02:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 4:56:14 PM, EmpiricalFact wrote:
At 11/3/2011 4:17:45 PM, logicrules wrote:
Where does this garbage about what Roman Catholics believe come from?
1, Catholics believe in God
2. They believe Jesus was God and the Spirit...See Apostles and Nicean Creeds for most catholic Dogma
3. Catholics believe anyone can get to heaven, its up to God not us

Feel free to ask, you don't have to agree, just don't make stuff up.
I know catholic people bealieve In all that, however
i dont agree with them in the 3rd point you mentioned. Why?,well because if God is the only one that chooses who goes into heaven, then why did Christ came for? He said it himself he is the only path And nobody goes to the father ( heaven)if not trough Jesus.so if only God decides who goes to heaven Jesus has no use,because whether man believe in him or not God might take them to heaven if he pleases.

Why? Because only God knows the entire story. Our standards are not God's. Christ came to fulfill creation and open heaven to all. Jesus is God,,,,therein might be the problem. Jesus is God,,,thats what all Christians believe. Jews think he was just a good guy.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/3/2011 6:04:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 6:02:31 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/3/2011 4:56:14 PM, EmpiricalFact wrote:
At 11/3/2011 4:17:45 PM, logicrules wrote:
Where does this garbage about what Roman Catholics believe come from?
1, Catholics believe in God
2. They believe Jesus was God and the Spirit...See Apostles and Nicean Creeds for most catholic Dogma
3. Catholics believe anyone can get to heaven, its up to God not us

Feel free to ask, you don't have to agree, just don't make stuff up.
I know catholic people bealieve In all that, however
i dont agree with them in the 3rd point you mentioned. Why?,well because if God is the only one that chooses who goes into heaven, then why did Christ came for? He said it himself he is the only path And nobody goes to the father ( heaven)if not trough Jesus.so if only God decides who goes to heaven Jesus has no use,because whether man believe in him or not God might take them to heaven if he pleases.

Why? Because only God knows the entire story. Our standards are not God's. Christ came to fulfill creation and open heaven to all. Jesus is God,,,,therein might be the problem. Jesus is God,,,thats what all Christians believe. Jews think he was just a good guy.

Actually the Jews believe he was scum.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/3/2011 6:49:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Catholics are the largest orthodox form of Christianity. As an orthodox denomintion they believe in organised and centralised religion; in the Roman Catholic Church the operation of faith is administrated by the Holy See.

There are many, many differences between the Christianities. Catholicism's most defining features are the ex cathedra and prima scriptura doctines. In its most recent incarnation by John Paul VI it is defined by the: "Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation". This canon law accepts the bible to be an imperfect presentation of the divine revelation of God. It is a book based of truths but isn't impeccable. If you're secular this sounds alright and fair -- so far. To combat this failure the Catholic Church warrants itself to have the ability to correct Christian doctrine because of some divine mandate it has from Christ himself. The authority comes from the chair (ex cathedra) that being the autocratic Pope himself.

It was formed as a system of control, religion was simply the justification.

------------
Catholics are going to heaven?
Depends on how they live, they can be catholic but live good. Catholicism is a heresy so people who align with it as it demands of them are heretics and cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

> Believe in the divine trinity.
> Follow teachings.
Success.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/3/2011 7:36:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 6:49:58 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Catholics are the largest orthodox form of Christianity. As an orthodox denomintion they believe in organised and centralised religion; in the Roman Catholic Church the operation of faith is administrated by the Holy See.

There are many, many differences between the Christianities. Catholicism's most defining features are the ex cathedra and prima scriptura doctines. In its most recent incarnation by John Paul VI it is defined by the: "Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation". This canon law accepts the bible to be an imperfect presentation of the divine revelation of God. It is a book based of truths but isn't impeccable. If you're secular this sounds alright and fair -- so far. To combat this failure the Catholic Church warrants itself to have the ability to correct Christian doctrine because of some divine mandate it has from Christ himself. The authority comes from the chair (ex cathedra) that being the autocratic Pope himself.

It was formed as a system of control, religion was simply the justification.

------------
Catholics are going to heaven?
Depends on how they live, they can be catholic but live good. Catholicism is a heresy so people who align with it as it demands of them are heretics and cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

> Believe in the divine trinity.
> Follow teachings.
Success.

Your understanding of ex cathedra is flawed. Ex Cathedra is a doctrine promulgated by Vatican one and goes to the infallibility of the Pope, not the Holy Sea. It must be invoked and specific. If and when the Pope speaks for the consensus of Ordinaries it certainly deserves a hearing, but is not infallible. Your understanding of determiner is also extremely flawed, let it suffice that the Church is not the Pope but rather the entirety of the People of God. God is infallible.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/3/2011 7:43:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is a heaven here on Earth.. But there is still much of heaven that can be brought down here.

People who worry too much about the heaven after death are not paying attention to what can be done here and now towards bringing more of heaven to Earth.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/3/2011 7:45:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 7:36:58 PM, logicrules wrote:

Your understanding of ex cathedra is flawed. Ex Cathedra is a doctrine promulgated by Vatican one and goes to the infallibility of the Pope, not the Holy Sea.

The authority comes from the chair (ex cathedra) that being the autocratic Pope himself.

It must be invoked and specific. If and when the Pope speaks for the consensus of Ordinaries it certainly deserves a hearing, but is not infallible. Your understanding of determiner is also extremely flawed, let it suffice that the Church is not the Pope but rather the entirety of the People of God. God is infallible.
This is because catholic morality is already defined; centuries have passed since they have needed to veto the bible truth.

It has no mandate, divine or human, to govern Christendom or to exact any arbitrary laws on Christians.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
logicrules
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11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 7:45:05 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/3/2011 7:36:58 PM, logicrules wrote:

Your understanding of ex cathedra is flawed. Ex Cathedra is a doctrine promulgated by Vatican one and goes to the infallibility of the Pope, not the Holy Sea.

The authority comes from the chair (ex cathedra) that being the autocratic Pope himself.

It must be invoked and specific. If and when the Pope speaks for the consensus of Ordinaries it certainly deserves a hearing, but is not infallible. Your understanding of determiner is also extremely flawed, let it suffice that the Church is not the Pope but rather the entirety of the People of God. God is infallible.
This is because catholic morality is already defined; centuries have passed since they have needed to veto the bible truth.

It has no mandate, divine or human, to govern Christendom or to exact any arbitrary laws on Christians.

You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.
Zetsubou
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11/3/2011 8:42:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM, logicrules wrote:
You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.

It never had a mandate to dictate it simply had the legitimacy to exert power though coercion.

Luther wasn't the first to rebel. The lutherans only survived because they won they 30 years war on their terms. Both the waldensians and hussites existed before them and both were deemed schismatic lodges and heretical, had their books added to the index librorum prohibitorum and were finally culled in european mini-crusades.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
logicrules
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11/4/2011 5:18:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 8:42:33 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM, logicrules wrote:
You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.

It never had a mandate to dictate it simply had the legitimacy to exert power though coercion.

Luther wasn't the first to rebel. The lutherans only survived because they won they 30 years war on their terms. Both the waldensians and hussites existed before them and both were deemed schismatic lodges and heretical, had their books added to the index librorum prohibitorum and were finally culled in european mini-crusades.

Thanks for that. So we agree, Luther's subjective theology was the formal beginning of the primacy issue. A suggestion might be not to project your values backwards to the middle ages, though it does permit you to make up rationale.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/4/2011 6:22:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 5:18:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:42:33 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM, logicrules wrote:
You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.

It never had a mandate to dictate it simply had the legitimacy to exert power though coercion.

Luther wasn't the first to rebel. The lutherans only survived because they won they 30 years war on their terms. Both the waldensians and hussites existed before them and both were deemed schismatic lodges and heretical, had their books added to the index librorum prohibitorum and were finally culled in european mini-crusades.

Thanks for that. So we agree, Luther's subjective theology was the formal beginning of the primacy issue. A suggestion might be not to project your values backwards to the middle ages, though it does permit you to make up rationale.

No it was not, the issue of primacy was an ancient one by the time of Luther.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
logicrules
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11/4/2011 6:29:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 6:22:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/4/2011 5:18:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:42:33 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM, logicrules wrote:
You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.

It never had a mandate to dictate it simply had the legitimacy to exert power though coercion.

Luther wasn't the first to rebel. The lutherans only survived because they won they 30 years war on their terms. Both the waldensians and hussites existed before them and both were deemed schismatic lodges and heretical, had their books added to the index librorum prohibitorum and were finally culled in european mini-crusades.

Thanks for that. So we agree, Luther's subjective theology was the formal beginning of the primacy issue. A suggestion might be not to project your values backwards to the middle ages, though it does permit you to make up rationale.

No it was not, the issue of primacy was an ancient one by the time of Luther.

Challenged based on TRANSLATION...see rock. I apologize, I assumed you understood the context and theology of the position.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/4/2011 6:39:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 6:29:44 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/4/2011 6:22:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/4/2011 5:18:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:42:33 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM, logicrules wrote:
You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.

It never had a mandate to dictate it simply had the legitimacy to exert power though coercion.

Luther wasn't the first to rebel. The lutherans only survived because they won they 30 years war on their terms. Both the waldensians and hussites existed before them and both were deemed schismatic lodges and heretical, had their books added to the index librorum prohibitorum and were finally culled in european mini-crusades.

Thanks for that. So we agree, Luther's subjective theology was the formal beginning of the primacy issue. A suggestion might be not to project your values backwards to the middle ages, though it does permit you to make up rationale.

No it was not, the issue of primacy was an ancient one by the time of Luther.


Challenged based on TRANSLATION...see rock. I apologize, I assumed you understood the context and theology of the position.

You are quite ignorant of Church history aren't you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
logicrules
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11/4/2011 6:41:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 6:39:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/4/2011 6:29:44 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/4/2011 6:22:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/4/2011 5:18:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:42:33 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/3/2011 8:13:56 PM, logicrules wrote:
You mean as a sociological function, correct, but then that's a recent understanding. If only you could have advised Constantine, what a much better world it would be. The theological mandate was clear till Luther, so now we debate rock...go figure.

It never had a mandate to dictate it simply had the legitimacy to exert power though coercion.

Luther wasn't the first to rebel. The lutherans only survived because they won they 30 years war on their terms. Both the waldensians and hussites existed before them and both were deemed schismatic lodges and heretical, had their books added to the index librorum prohibitorum and were finally culled in european mini-crusades.

Thanks for that. So we agree, Luther's subjective theology was the formal beginning of the primacy issue. A suggestion might be not to project your values backwards to the middle ages, though it does permit you to make up rationale.

No it was not, the issue of primacy was an ancient one by the time of Luther.


Challenged based on TRANSLATION...see rock. I apologize, I assumed you understood the context and theology of the position.

You are quite ignorant of Church history aren't you?

Depends entirely on your ecclisiology.