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Why I can never be a Christian

MyVoiceInYourHead
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11/3/2011 6:27:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I couldn't help but notice that there are a lot of Christians on this forum.

Here are the reasons why I can never accept the Bible as being moral (with a few verses thrown in as supporting evidence).

GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE

Numbers 31

Vengeance on the Midianites

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites".

Moses says:
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Need I say more?How does this make God / Moses any different to Genghis Khan or Hitler?

GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY
Exodus 21

Personal Injuries

20 "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

It is morally wrong for any person to be owned. And yet The Bible does not challenge this at all. In the NT it says "slaves obey your masters." And then yes it goes on to say something like masters treat your slaves well or words to that effect.
Where's God's vision for the future? If slavery was crucial to the economy/culture and could not be stopped immediately then fair enough, but why couldn't God say something like "I foresee a time when no person shall be owned by another because all men are equal under God." That would have have really helped William Wilberforce in his Abolition of Slavery Bill (which by the way took him 18 years to get through parliament because he was opposed by the majority of Christian MPs and the then Archbishop of Canterbury, who correctly - but immorally- argued that he was not Biblical!). There's no vision for the end of slavery in The Bible. It isn't there. It's missing.

GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC

Leviticus 20

Punishments for Sin

13 "‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Stoning gay people to death in Leviticus and Paul's comments (where he puts homosexuals in the same sinful list as thieves and murderers) is not acceptable anymore. Jesus doesn't specifically mention the issue but he says that the Torah is true, so he doesn't escape the issue either.

GOD IS SEXIST
Ephesians 5

Instructions for Christian Households

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Paul's Letter to Timothy "I do not allow women to preach or have authority over a man" will not have helped the cause of women vicars either. The main point is that it's God the Father and Jesus is a man. The Bible was written by men (as far as we can tell). It should be a 50:50 split in the interest of equality.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
In the modern world, we don't execute someone when some other person or persons has committed a crime. This would be an infringement of basic justice.
How is it a genuine sacrifice when Jesus dies for a weekend, then resurrects and gets to be ruler of the Universe? And he knew about all this in advance.

HELL

Matthew 18

Causing to Stumble

8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Nice. It almost certainly inspired The Spanish Inquisition.

Other things which add to my disbelief

CREATION/EVOLUTION
The Bible: The Garden of Eden was paradise. No pain. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and he puts a curse on the Earth. It is now a hellish place and animals are now savage. This is the whole reason for jesus' mission.

Evolution: T. Rexs were killing and devouring other animals millions of years before man came on the scene. A cheetah didn't suddenly start ripping a gazelle to pieces when Adam bit the apple.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES

The virgin birth
Turning water (H20) into alcohol (C2H5OH)
Jesus raising others from the dead including himself
Gravity-defying walking on water
Glowing in the dark on a hilltop
Feeding thousands of hungry people with hardly anything more substantial than a KFC Bucket
Withering a fig tree for being out of season (the only story I've ever read in which I feel sorry for a tree - it wasn't the trees fault)
The last great miracle before the crucifiction - the sticking back of the ear
Jesus dying on the cross and long dead holy men rise from their graves and parade around Jerusalem like something out of Shaun of the Dead

Several tall tales that litter the Old Testament including a talking snake and a talking donkey - the only thing missing from this story is a green ogre and a princess voiced by Cameron Diaz.

I rest my case.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/3/2011 6:52:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I will just like to say that the moral arguments against Christianity are weak, the Christian God exists or he does not exist, if he exists it is quite clear that his marketing literature is not the whole truth.

My simplified case is I have no evidence to believe in the many wierd and wonderful claims in the bible. Christianity fatally contradicts with Judaism, either the Jewish God and the Christian God is not, or they are one and same God that likes to change his mind a lot or give out very vague instructions. I do not understand the crucifixtion and how this allows salvation, if Jesus committed the miracles attributed to him then he would not have been crucified.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
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11/3/2011 7:30:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Numbers 31
Is a book of history. God commanded them to kill so they killed, that doesn't mean we may.

The Bible has may opposing systems. They together form the Christian antiethesis.

OT
Ethics of Pre-Law [Before the return to the Levant]
Ethics of the Law [Leviticus]
Ethics of the Jews (of the Prophets) [David to Malachi]

NT
Ethics of Christ [Gospel and Acts]
Ethics of the Disciples and later Prophets [Epistles, Letters, Revelations]

They're all contradicting one another. We follow Christ, then Moses, then OT others, then NT others. That's the order of authority.

Exodus 21
Manumission, it's like serfdom. It's not slavery in the conventional sense. It refers to workers who were not payed in currency but in rent credit, food or land. Sort of like the pyramid workers.

Leviticus 20
This is a mitzvot law. As Christians we may no longer kill amoral people thanks to the most recent covenant with God (Christ).

Ephesians 5
Like in Islam people of power must treat those they have authority over with Christlike respect.

But yeah, that was an accurate translation - it is an example of patriarchy.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
It's ultimate altruism, an expression of love.

Jesus wasn't really hurt and if he was hurt remember he let it happen so he must have his reasons. He is immortal, death would be no biggy to him.

HELL
Meh, I never got why people gt so offended by the idea of hell. The worse pain possible forever.

Matthew 18 -- Causing to Stumble
Yeah, this is why the Bible was never suppost to be translated into basic retard English.

In the latin it's: scandalizat te, offend thou.

If your hand causes you offence cut it off. If your eye causes you offence tear it, for it is better to be hurt or maimed than to be in everlasting fire.

What lust (else offence) do you know involves hands and eyes?

It's really obvious if you read the whole chapter.

CREATION/EVOLUTION
No comment.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
It is religion, what do you expect?
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/3/2011 7:33:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You have never understood how the concept of hell could be offensive?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/3/2011 7:48:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The concept of hell that most people have is cultural anyway. The scriptures that are commonly cited as referencing hell.. When put together do not paint a picture that even closely resembles the hell of pop culture..

Cept maybe fire.

It is written that it is God's will that none shall perish. If it is God's will, it is done. It is written that in the end times, all will be resurrected, and every tongue shall confess, every knee shall bow.

The hell is reserved for the devil and it's minions.

You all have nothing to worry about. Now be unchained from your fear, and let the holy spirit guide you with TRUE faith. The type of faith you aren't going to get by deceiving yourself and putting your faith in men whom you know are fallible.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/3/2011 9:32:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would make a couple of additions.

At 11/3/2011 7:30:07 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Numbers 31
Is a book of history. God commanded them to kill so they killed, that doesn't mean we may.

The Bible has may opposing systems. They together form the Christian antiethesis.

OT
Ethics of Pre-Law [Before the return to the Levant]
Ethics of the Law [Leviticus]
Ethics of the Jews (of the Prophets) [David to Malachi]

NT
Ethics of Christ [Gospel and Acts]
Ethics of the Disciples and later Prophets [Epistles, Letters, Revelations]

They're all contradicting one another. We follow Christ, then Moses, then OT others, then NT others. That's the order of authority.

I would add that as nations we are commanded to Kill. As a Christian nation we are commanded to stop evil nations and are completely allowed to kill.

We are commanded to kill evil people.

Good people kill bad people. I find nothing morally wrong with this viewpoint. Jesus Christ himself will return and kill the bad people.


Exodus 21
Manumission, it's like serfdom. It's not slavery in the conventional sense. It refers to workers who were not payed in currency but in rent credit, food or land. Sort of like the pyramid workers.

I would also add here that it is a free market solution. A person who has nothing still had their freedom left. Every seven years the contract was up.


Leviticus 20
This is a mitzvot law. As Christians we may no longer kill amoral people thanks to the most recent covenant with God (Christ).

I would state that all evil and bad people should be killed. When we fail to deal with evil people they grow more powerful due to our weakness.
NAMBLA would be a key example in America.


Ephesians 5
Like in Islam people of power must treat those they have authority over with Christlike respect.

But yeah, that was an accurate translation - it is an example of patriarchy.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
It's ultimate altruism, an expression of love.

Jesus wasn't really hurt and if he was hurt remember he let it happen so he must have his reasons. He is immortal, death would be no biggy to him.

I would also Add that nothing that was done to Jesus was permenant. He is not still in Hell and is now sitting on the throne in Heaven.



HELL
Meh, I never got why people gt so offended by the idea of hell. The worse pain possible forever.

Hell is eternal punishment for eternal crimes.


Matthew 18 -- Causing to Stumble
Yeah, this is why the Bible was never suppost to be translated into basic retard English.

In the latin it's: scandalizat te, offend thou.

If your hand causes you offence cut it off. If your eye causes you offence tear it, for it is better to be hurt or maimed than to be in everlasting fire.

What lust (else offence) do you know involves hands and eyes?

It's really obvious if you read the whole chapter.

CREATION/EVOLUTION
No comment.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
It is religion, what do you expect?

I have personally experienced miracles. I validate all of the Biblical claims as I have experienced them.
heart_of_the_matter
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11/3/2011 10:26:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 6:27:50 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:

You have brought up many arguments which seem to be hard to reconcile with what we know about morality...but there have been many things written on each of these ideas...which provide reasonable explanations...if a person is actually looking for those, ...rather than looking with an eye of doubt.

Here are the reasons why I can never accept the Bible as being moral
Never is a long time

GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE
GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY
Others have given you some good ideas to consider...

GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC
Homosexuality is a sin, because it is counter to God's work...which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. All sexual sin is wrong and is condemned by God! Sexual relations are to be used only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully married. and complete fidelity is required after marriage also.

GOD IS SEXIST
Men and women have different roles...men are not 'inferior' because they can't bear children...Men are given the Priesthood...God is a God of order and He operates through the keys of the Priesthood....If a person actually understands what it means to lead or preside in God's kingdom---they would understand that it is the right to give more and sacrifice more for other people...never to exercise unrighteous dominion.
As far as equality = the scripture - neither is the woman without the man or the man without the woman, in the Lord.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
Jesus voluntarily submitted to the will of the Father to perform the Atonement...it is the principle of vicarious works...where He suffered in the place of others.
For example: If a person is given a parking ticket, but the person has no money to pay the ticket...they would be in danger of going to jail = Justice. (eventually - or substitute some other relevant crime here)...but another person can step in (mercy)...(Jesus Christ)...and pay the price for you...and justice doesn't care...it has been paid and you wouldn't go to jail...However your friend may require you to repay them...and could set terms for that

HELL
There are 2 places of suffering: 1. Spirit Prison = where the spirits of the wicked go after death...until the resurrection or until they are brought into spirit paradise. (Temporary --but could be a very long time!)
2. Outer darkness = eternal...and reserved for only the sons of Perdition.

CREATION/EVOLUTION
The Bible: The Garden of Eden was paradise. No pain. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and he puts a curse on the Earth. It is now a hellish place and animals are now savage. This is the whole reason for jesus' mission.

The Fall of Adam and Eve was all part of the Plan of Salvation...God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the MIDST of the Garden...if He really wanted to guard it ...consider how he guarded the Tree of Life after they had partaken!...first He cast them clear out of the Garden away from the tree (preventing all access to it) then God guarded it with cheribum and a flaming sword...there was no way they would partake of that yet...That is when God was serious about preventing them from partaking.
Getting knowledge of good and evil is a necessary step in our progression...but God could not force it on us...God allows choice...

Evolution: T. Rexs were killing and devouring other animals millions of years before man came on the scene. A cheetah didn't suddenly start ripping a gazelle to pieces when Adam bit the apple.

I'd like to learn more about this topic/ timing etc... I'm not informed yet as I'd like to be so I won't comment now on that...

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES

Yes God performs miracles. I will add my witness that I know God performs miracles..I also have experienced many in my life.

Withering a fig tree for being out of season (the only story I've ever read in which I feel sorry for a tree - it wasn't the trees fault)
The fig tree was in season it should have been producing fruit (like the Jews)...there is much symbolism to teach principles in the Bible...also Jesus demonstrated to His disciples that He had power to destroy if He chose to...but He never used that power to destroy people....even when they were crucifying Him...teaching us by His example the proper use/restraint of power...plus other lessons...read Jesus the Christ by James Talmage ch. 26 if you are interested in more about the cursing of the fig tree...
EmpiricalFact
Posts: 19
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11/4/2011 9:36:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 6:27:50 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
OK,I will try to explain all of these,wich are merely common misinterpretations and bad translations of the texts.
P.S. i deleted some of your comments on the texts not beacuse i dont care about you opinion,but because it was a matter of letters cap.
GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE
Numbers 31
Vengeance on the Midianites
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites".

Moses says:
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

If you would know anything from the Midianites history you would understand that they were a "pagan" culture.Midianite women were seducing Israelites into their cult.So they posed as a threat to them,both religiously and geographically (since they were located in Canaan,the land they were conquering at that time).You should note that God only said to "Take Vengeance",he did not specify the way they were sopposed to take it.God did not ordered the Genocide,Moses did in verse 17..

GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY
Exodus 21
Personal Injuries
20 "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today ,n which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.

GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC
Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin
13 "‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
This is the correct translation of that text directly from the hebrew:"And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman's bed, both of them have made an abomination. Dying they will be put to death; their blood is on them". It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman's bed. Culturally, a woman's bed was her own. Other than the woman herself, only her husband was permitted in her bed, and there were even restrictions on when he was allowed in there. Any other use of her bed would have been considered defilement. Other verses in the Law will help clarify the acceptable use of the woman's bed. (Lev. 15.)
GOD IS SEXIST
Ephesians 5
Instructions for Christian Households
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Paul's Letter to Timothy "I do not allow women to preach or have authority over a man" will not have helped the cause of women vicars either. The main point is that it's God the Father and Jesus is a man. The Bible was written by men (as far as we can tell). It should be a 50:50 split in the interest of equality.
This is common misinterpretation of the texts from someone who never looks at the context of those words.In verse 22, Both,wife and husbands are given instructions,women should be submissive(Ephesian women used to be prepotent,desrespecting even their husbands. )and men loving(For obvious reasons,because men were used to see woman as objects,even their own wives).In Pauls letter he indeed authorized women not to talk,but not beacuse he was sexist,it was becuase women in This Specific Church in Ephesus wanted to overcome their own leader's authority.Therefore he had to intervine in this particular case.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
In the modern world, we don't execute someone when some other person or persons has committed a crime. This would be an infringement of basic justice.
How is it a genuine sacrifice when Jesus dies for a weekend, then resurrects and gets to be ruler of the Universe? And he knew about all this in advance.
Jesus sacrifice can only be understood if you believe in Sin.If you do not believe in Sin,it is pointless to explain his sacrifice.
HELL
Matthew 18
Causing to Stumble
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
It is not meant, by this, that when the body shall be raised it will be maimed and disfigured in this manner. It will be perfect. See 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. The meaning of this is, it is better to go to heaven without enjoying the things that caused us to sin, than to enjoy them here and then be lost.Again,if you do not believe in sin these is pointess.

CREATION/EVOLUTION
The Bible: The Garden of Eden was paradise. No pain. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and he puts a curse on the Earth. It is now a hellish place and animals are now savage. This is the whole reason for jesus' mission.
Evolution: T. Rexs were killing and devouring other animals millions of years before man came on the scene. A cheetah didn't suddenly start ripping a gazelle to pieces when Adam bit the apple.
This is a whole different topic,i could be here for hours trying to disprove you,but i wont since i have a life, LOL.
BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
The virgin birth
Turning water (H20) into alcohol (C2H5OH)
Jesus raising others from the dead including himself
Gravity-defying walking on water
Glowing in the dark on a hilltop
Feeding thousands of hungry people with hardly anything more substantial than a KFC Bucket
Withering a fig tree for being out of season (the only story I've ever read in which I feel sorry for a tree - it wasn't the trees fault)
The last great miracle before the crucifiction - the sticking back of the ear
Jesus dying on the cross and long dead holy men rise from their graves and parade around Jerusalem like something out of Shaun of the Dead

Several tall tales that litter the Old Testament including a talking snake and a talking donkey - the only thing missing from this story is a green ogre and a princess voiced by Cameron Diaz.
Personally,i have seen 1 miracle in my life (no joke) enough to convince me,so i guess it is a matter of experience and/or faith.It is of no use trying to exlplain it to someone who is skeptical.
I rest my case.
Mikeee
Posts: 234
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11/4/2011 2:43:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It really depends on how you interpret the text. The word Jihad means "struggle", some take it to mean one of many things, such as: internal struggle to maintain faith (Sufi), the struggle to improve the Muslim society (Sunni), or the struggle to defend Islam (Shiite). The Shiite sect believes that it was meant for the word of Islam to be spread by the sword, while others believe it to be a struggle of society and faith. Depending on how you interpret something, your views and practice of a religion could be radically different than others.

In most religions, there is also conservatism, ones who do to bend the rules or reevaluate interpretations, and progressives who reevaluate and change how the text are interpreted, to address modern issues that were not directly address in the time of the writings.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/4/2011 3:42:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not normally mean but I'm afraid the comments that many of the people on this thread have made must rank as some of the craziest sh!t I've ever encountered on the web. There's no point in addressing each one individually but I'll give a generic
response.

GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE/ GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY

Staring appalled at the screen with my jaw having dropped to the floor!

It's answers like this that some Christians give which make me glad I'm not part of your sinister club. I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, people will readily accept a philosophy which supports appalling treatment of other human beings. And yet Christians claim that the Bible gives them morals! If this is what an arbitrary absolute morality looks like then I don't want it. I'm far happier with my relative moralism. No one even struggled with the issue, they just quietly accepted it.

What planet are you lot on! The comments I read were so vacuous and empty that I would be surprised if your brains didn't collapse in on themselves and you formed an event horizon.

GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC/ GOD IS SEXIST
Once again excuses were made for yet more dreadful behaviour. So what if a man wants to enage in a bit of bum fun with another man? If that's the only genuine way they can express physical love and lust then so what? It's harming no one.
The Bible says nothing about lesbians interestingly.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
A crazy cosmic plan. God sacrifices himself to himself in order to appease himself and act as a loophole to a bloodthirsty set of instructions he gave in the OT.

There's no justice here. The Bible is effectively saying that people don't need to take responsibility for their actions - neither are they permitted to take credit for their accomplishments. A double whammy of nonsense!

The God of the Bible isn't fit to judge my local village fete cake-making competition.

HELL

Infinite punishment for finite wrongs some of which aren't wrong in the first place. Would any of you torture your own child in the basement for not loving you? Or not believing in you? Even for a short time? If this doesn't disturb any of you then I suggest you get professional help.

THE FALL

This is a bit like me as a Dad warning my 2 year old daughter to not touch the apple in the fruit bowl because there will be terrible consequences. She has no understanding why there should be anything wrong with touching the apple, nor should she have. Indeed I have just made it sound more attractive to her and I've put the suggestion in her mind. If she then touches the apple, if I was the Biblical God in this strange little scenario, I would think it was ok to banish her into the back garden in the middle of winter and consider that justice. Barking mad!

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES

I have heard several claims to Biblical-style miracles (proper magic ones like in the Bible, not somebody starting to recover from cancer a few days after being prayed for) and none have stood up to even the slightest scrutiny. The "devil is in the detail" about such wild assertions and until the burdon of proof has been met, I don't believe any of it. You may genuinely believe something extraordianry happened but until there's good scientific evidence, I remain highly skeptical of these idiot claims.

CONTRADICTIONS

Another reason I am convinced that the Bible hasn't been looked after by a divine superpower is that it contains several contradictions and inconsistencies. The worst one probably being the death of Judas in Matthews Gospel compared with his death in Acts of the Apostles 1. In the first one Judas is remorseful and hangs himself and in Acts he falls headlong down a hill and his guts spill open!
The 4 Accounts of the Resurrection are a mess too to such an extent that I'm not sure what anyone is supposed to believe in detail! And yet it's the hingepin of your religion!

IN SUMMARY
The whole thing is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley.

Wherever you are and whatever you do, I can only hope that you are being supervised - very closely.
EmpiricalFact
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11/4/2011 5:11:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 3:42:17 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
I'm not normally mean but I'm afraid the comments that many of the people on this thread have made must rank as some of the craziest sh!t I've ever encountered on the web. There's no point in addressing each one individually but I'll give a generic
response.

GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE/ GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY

Staring appalled at the screen with my jaw having dropped to the floor!

It's answers like this that some Christians give which make me glad I'm not part of your sinister club. I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, people will readily accept a philosophy which supports appalling treatment of other human beings. And yet Christians claim that the Bible gives them morals! If this is what an arbitrary absolute morality looks like then I don't want it. I'm far happier with my relative moralism. No one even struggled with the issue, they just quietly accepted it.

What planet are you lot on! The comments I read were so vacuous and empty that I would be surprised if your brains didn't collapse in on themselves and you formed an event horizon.

GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC/ GOD IS SEXIST
Once again excuses were made for yet more dreadful behaviour. So what if a man wants to enage in a bit of bum fun with another man? If that's the only genuine way they can express physical love and lust then so what? It's harming no one.
The Bible says nothing about lesbians interestingly.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
A crazy cosmic plan. God sacrifices himself to himself in order to appease himself and act as a loophole to a bloodthirsty set of instructions he gave in the OT.

There's no justice here. The Bible is effectively saying that people don't need to take responsibility for their actions - neither are they permitted to take credit for their accomplishments. A double whammy of nonsense!

The God of the Bible isn't fit to judge my local village fete cake-making competition.

HELL

Infinite punishment for finite wrongs some of which aren't wrong in the first place. Would any of you torture your own child in the basement for not loving you? Or not believing in you? Even for a short time? If this doesn't disturb any of you then I suggest you get professional help.

THE FALL

This is a bit like me as a Dad warning my 2 year old daughter to not touch the apple in the fruit bowl because there will be terrible consequences. She has no understanding why there should be anything wrong with touching the apple, nor should she have. Indeed I have just made it sound more attractive to her and I've put the suggestion in her mind. If she then touches the apple, if I was the Biblical God in this strange little scenario, I would think it was ok to banish her into the back garden in the middle of winter and consider that justice. Barking mad!

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES

I have heard several claims to Biblical-style miracles (proper magic ones like in the Bible, not somebody starting to recover from cancer a few days after being prayed for) and none have stood up to even the slightest scrutiny. The "devil is in the detail" about such wild assertions and until the burdon of proof has been met, I don't believe any of it. You may genuinely believe something extraordianry happened but until there's good scientific evidence, I remain highly skeptical of these idiot claims.

CONTRADICTIONS

Another reason I am convinced that the Bible hasn't been looked after by a divine superpower is that it contains several contradictions and inconsistencies. The worst one probably being the death of Judas in Matthews Gospel compared with his death in Acts of the Apostles 1. In the first one Judas is remorseful and hangs himself and in Acts he falls headlong down a hill and his guts spill open!
The 4 Accounts of the Resurrection are a mess too to such an extent that I'm not sure what anyone is supposed to believe in detail! And yet it's the hingepin of your religion!

IN SUMMARY
The whole thing is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley.

Wherever you are and whatever you do, I can only hope that you are being supervised - very closely.
I know i should ignore this,but this kind of ignorance is what leads me to believe that you don't know anything about the bible. You take texts that "favor" you opinions and your cause and interpret them as you like only to "prove" that the bible contradics itself and it's morally wrong.taking verses in the bible out of context doesn't make it the truth.You are entitled to your own opinions,however they should not be taken as Facts,as you intend.I explained in my last post the texts you mentioned, if you find them wrong, I understand,if you want to refute me I also understand,but just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong.I expected a little more sense of understanding but I see you lack of it.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/4/2011 5:45:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 5:11:02 PM, EmpiricalFact wrote:

I know i should ignore this,but this kind of ignorance is what leads me to believe that you don't know anything about the bible. You take texts that "favor" you opinions and your cause and interpret them as you like only to "prove" that the bible contradics itself and it's morally wrong.taking verses in the bible out of context doesn't make it the truth.You are entitled to your own opinions,however they should not be taken as Facts,as you intend.I explained in my last post the texts you mentioned, if you find them wrong, I understand,if you want to refute me I also understand,but just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong.I expected a little more sense of understanding but I see you lack of it.

At least when I make a point it has strength due to the decent, humane argument being presented. I don't have to put it in bold. And for the love of Christ, please pray that he grants you the ability to write in English. Your grammar is the worst since Kelsey.
And of course we must "properly interpret" scripture and not "take it out of context" or take it at face value. We must accept God's little idiosyncracies such as finding it acceptable to beat up your pet slave - as long as he gets up in a day or two!

I understand the Bible better than you think, sonny. God in man's image at the time. And I mean man's image not woman's image. And I can hazard a guess as to it's eventual fate.

The internet - where religion goes to die...
EmpiricalFact
Posts: 19
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11/5/2011 3:01:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 5:45:14 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:

At least when I make a point it has strength due to the decent, humane argument being presented. I don't have to put it in bold.So what you're saying is that my arguments lack of stregth beacuse they are written in Bold?what kind of reasong is that?how did you came to that convoluted conclusion?so what if i like bold?Yep, this is totally logical(sarcasm).

And for the love of Christ, please pray that he grants you the ability to write in English. Your grammar is the worst since Kelsey.I agree to this because I don't come from an English speaking country.But hey, I'm trying to do my best.

And of course we must "properly interpret" scripture and not "take it out of context" or take it at face value. We must accept God's little idiosyncracies such as finding it acceptable to beat up your pet slave - as long as he gets up in a day or two! I would explain this to you in a detailed way but, there's no use trying to explain something to a person that has already prejudged it and lacks of objectiveness when it comes to the reading the bible. 

I understand the Bible better than you think, sonny. God in man's image at the time. And I mean man's image not woman's image. And I can hazard a guess as to it's eventual fate. No, if you understood the bible in any possble way you wouldn't be making that comment about God in man's image and not in woman's in the first place.Your knowledge of the bible is so small and limited that you can only explain it using your humane reasoning,and because it's humane, it is ultimately imperfect.

The internet - where religion goes to die... Shall I say the same thing about skepticism? Yes, Indeed.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/5/2011 4:51:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 3:01:56 PM, EmpiricalFact wrote:
At 11/4/2011 5:45:14 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:

At least when I make a point it has strength due to the decent, humane argument being presented. I don't have to put it in bold.So what you're saying is that my arguments lack of stregth beacuse they are written in Bold?what kind of reasong is that?how did you came to that convoluted conclusion?so what if i like bold?Yep, this is totally logical(sarcasm).

And for the love of Christ, please pray that he grants you the ability to write in English. Your grammar is the worst since Kelsey.I agree to this because I don't come from an English speaking country.But hey, I'm trying to do my best.

And of course we must "properly interpret" scripture and not "take it out of context" or take it at face value. We must accept God's little idiosyncracies such as finding it acceptable to beat up your pet slave - as long as he gets up in a day or two! I would explain this to you in a detailed way but, there's no use trying to explain something to a person that has already prejudged it and lacks of objectiveness when it comes to the reading the bible. 

I understand the Bible better than you think, sonny. God in man's image at the time. And I mean man's image not woman's image. And I can hazard a guess as to it's eventual fate. No, if you understood the bible in any possble way you wouldn't be making that comment about God in man's image and not in woman's in the first place.Your knowledge of the bible is so small and limited that you can only explain it using your humane reasoning,and because it's humane, it is ultimately imperfect.

The internet - where religion goes to die... Shall I say the same thing about skepticism? Yes, Indeed.

I apologise for criticising your English but the rest of my comments still stand. But it doesn't help when you don't leave a space after a comma or full stop and the whole post resembles a hastily tapped out text. And why do you feel the need to write in Bold? If there is substance behind what you say, people will pick up on that and take notice. An by the way, "humane" has a different meaning to "human".

And you are mistaken when you say I don't know the Bible - although my OT is a little rusty. You unfortunately are coming from the assumption that the Bible is true and accurate and has been looked after by an all-loving, all-just, all-powerful creator God and yet you have provided not a shred of evidence to support that.

How do we go about working out whether claims are likelybe true or likely to be not true?

Do you believe in the following?
1. The orbit of Pluto is 248 years
2. The theory of evolution
3. Socrates
4. Robin Hood or King Arthur
5. Big Foot
6. Alien abduction
7. Fairies at the bottom of the garden
8. Jesus could defy gravity and walk on water

Each of us has to make a judgement about various claims particularly if that claim insists we should take it seriously. No one is capable of making that judgement on our behalf. We must do it ourselves base on evidence.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/5/2011 5:17:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 3:42:17 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE/ GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY

Staring appalled at the screen with my jaw having dropped to the floor!

It's answers like this that some Christians give which make me glad I'm not part of your sinister club. I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, people will readily accept a philosophy which supports appalling treatment of other human beings. And yet Christians claim that the Bible gives them morals! If this is what an arbitrary absolute morality looks like then I don't want it. I'm far happier with my relative moralism. No one even struggled with the issue, they just quietly accepted it.

What planet are you lot on! The comments I read were so vacuous and empty that I would be surprised if your brains didn't collapse in on themselves and you formed an event horizon.
This is all demagoguery, there is no argument in this at all. Just "ZOMG, CHRISTIANS ARE SOOOOO WEIRD, STUPID AND WRONG".

I bothered to give the reasons as to why we follow and do the things we do, I even pointed out the farce in your assumptions. You don't like them, fine. That's what they are, what people have followed for years and what people continue to follow.


GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC/ GOD IS SEXIST
Once again excuses were made for yet more dreadful behaviour. So what if a man wants to enage in a bit of bum fun with another man? If that's the only genuine way they can express physical love and lust then so what? It's harming no one.
It's very bad. Why? Take it up with God.

The Bible says nothing about lesbians interestingly.
Lesbianism didn't exist until 19th Century, interestingly. Women were not thought to be sexual in any shape or form until about the same era. This is supported with the fact no language which are not italic or germanic have an organic word for it. (The word lesbian was a technical word, it didn't develop it was coined). There is one instance of it happening in a Austrian chapel between two nuns in the 15th Century according to one les-fem 'scholar'. The actual document she cites however can't be found anywhere else aside from that book.

You can also direct me to some pre-1750 sources of EXPLICIT female homosexuality if you want? I'll eat my words if you do.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
The Bible is effectively saying that people don't need to take responsibility for their actions - neither are they permitted to take credit for their accomplishments.
Billions of people have lived and died for it. Your assertion of it being "stupid" is hollow and in direct opposition to their thoughts. Your thoughts are insulting anathema, if I believed in mortal sin you would have committed the greatest.

HELL
Moral argument, what might be right for you, may not be right for some. God says they deserve it so that's good enough for me.

THE FALL
Your metaphor isn't exactly fitting but whatever. Again, a matter of opinion on whether it is just.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
Depends on your school of science. Your position is one of radical empiricism. Isn't true unless it is documented and made fact by the scientific method.

CONTRADICTIONS
I did concede in this. As St Augustine of Hippo said, maybe Judas hanged himself in the field and the fall burst his body open.

IN SUMMARY
The whole thing is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley.

Wherever you are and whatever you do, I can only hope that you are being supervised - very closely.
Your hubris is quite dangerous and reminiscent of soviet atheism.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/5/2011 5:32:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 7:30:07 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

HELL
Meh, I never got why people gt so offended by the idea of hell. The worse pain possible forever.

Is this an attempt at humour?

What lust (else offence) do you know involves hands and eyes?

It's really obvious if you read the whole chapter

Are you referring to Onanistic behaviour?.

CREATION/EVOLUTION
No comment.

Why not? Have you not considered the possible conflict between the Biblical account and the fossil evidence?

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
It is religion, what do you expect?

Why do you believe any of them? What extra-Biblical evidence exists about these alleged bizarre occurences? I find them to be totally unbelievable.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/5/2011 5:47:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 5:17:20 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

It's very bad. Why? Take it up with God.

I don't believe God exists - at least not the Christian one.

Billions of people have lived and died for it.


Doesn't make it true.

HELL
Moral argument, what might be right for you, may not be right for some. God says they deserve it so that's good enough for me.

So you believe in the cosmic Mafia Boss - not God the Father but The Godfather.
Even if he made us does not give him the right to break my legs if I disagree with him. He's morally bankrupt.

THE FALL
Your metaphor isn't exactly fitting but whatever. Again, a matter of opinion on whether it is just.


It isn't.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
Depends on your school of science. Your position is one of radical empiricism. Isn't true unless it is documented and made fact by the scientific method.


It's the most reliable method we have for determining fact from fantasy. Science and the Socratic method.

CONTRADICTIONS
I did concede in this. As St Augustine of Hippo said, maybe Judas hanged himself in the field and the fall burst his body open.


Then how do you reconcile this? And do you really believe the traditional apologetics line that they can both be true?It's an insult to my intelligence.

IN SUMMARY

Your hubris is quite dangerous and reminiscent of soviet atheism.
The last desperate argument of a Christian - peddle the Stalin line.
Stalin was immoral. So is the God of the Bible.
Do you think that the words of an amateur internet blogger are as bad as the genocides in the Bible and the Spanish Inquisition? Get a sense of perspective, man.
Zetsubou
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11/5/2011 5:52:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 5:32:36 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
At 11/3/2011 7:30:07 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

HELL
Meh, I never got why people gt so offended by the idea of hell. The worse pain possible forever.

Is this an attempt at humour?
No. I'm serious.

What lust (else offence) do you know involves hands and eyes?

It's really obvious if you read the whole chapter

Are you referring to Onanistic behaviour?.
Yep.

CREATION/EVOLUTION
No comment.

Why not? Have you not considered the possible conflict between the Biblical account and the fossil evidence?
It is evidence of evolution but doesn't prove it. New species that haven't existed before are even found today. The argument is that these species have been here the whole time hidden form us by god and have shown themselves now.

Evolution is scientific fact not absolute fact; it's an inductive assumption. To absolutely prove evolution you must also observed the specific moment of RNA translation in the ribosomes.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
It is religion, what do you expect?

Why do you believe any of them? What extra-Biblical evidence exists about these alleged bizarre occurences? I find them to be totally unbelievable.
I believe it takes a certain amount of hubris to denounce all superstitions as old wive's tales. As such I believe in witches, magic, miracles, demons, ghosts, angels and the lot. It sounds silly at first but the consensus of humanity is with me on this. I like to trust that humanity is not so naive so follow their inventions as you think they do.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
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11/5/2011 6:20:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 5:47:43 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
At 11/5/2011 5:17:20 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

It's very bad. Why? Take it up with God.

I don't believe God exists - at least not the Christian one.
Then idk what to say.
Billions of people have lived and died for it.
Doesn't make it true.
It makes it far more plausible.

HELL
Moral argument, what might be right for you, may not be right for some. God says they deserve it so that's good enough for me.

So you believe in the cosmic Mafia Boss - not God the Father but The Godfather.
Even if he made us does not give him the right to break my legs if I disagree with him. He's morally bankrupt.
He is all knowing, always right and can never lie.

Anyone/Anything with those three traits can define objective morality. It's called the divine command theory morality.

THE FALL
Your metaphor isn't exactly fitting but whatever. Again, a matter of opinion on whether it is just.


It isn't.

>> -- This is a bit like me as a Dad warning my 2 year old daughter to not touch the apple in the fruit bowl because there will be terrible consequences. She has no understanding why there should be anything wrong with touching the apple, nor should she have. Indeed I have just made it sound more attractive to her and I've put the suggestion in her mind. If she then touches the apple, if I was the Biblical God in this strange little scenario, I would think it was ok to banish her into the back garden in the middle of winter and consider that justice. Barking mad!

1. Adam and Eve did not have the naivety of a 2 year old. They lived up to 900 years and had a personal relationship with god.
2. They should have followed God's word since he had divine properties (unlike you). Other comments are: it was a test. God knew they would fail but let them anyway. He had a reason for this but it has never been said.
3. You do not have the authority of a perfect being like God. You cannot banish on your own whim, God can because he's perfect.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
Depends on your school of science. Your position is one of radical empiricism. Isn't true unless it is documented and made fact by the scientific method.


It's the most reliable method we have for determining fact from fantasy. Science and the Socratic method.
Miracles are historically documented and their veracity is confirmed in the Bible.

As for the scientific method... there are many. Many, many schools. This is why we have the philosophy of science. Science tests, but then me must decide when plausibility becomes fact. This can range from matrix (film) style solipsism to Dewey's instrumentalism. The only fact we know in the word is that we exist. Everything else has the ability to be false.

CONTRADICTIONS
I did concede in this. As St Augustine of Hippo said, maybe Judas hanged himself in the field and the fall burst his body open.


Then how do you reconcile this? And do you really believe the traditional apologetics line that they can both be true?It's an insult to my intelligence.
In this case yes, but not in all. For example Joseph has 2 different lineages in the Bible, if both are true it means he has 4 parents.
IN SUMMARY

Your hubris is quite dangerous and reminiscent of soviet atheism.

The last desperate argument of a Christian - peddle the Stalin line.

"Wherever you are and whatever you do, I can only hope that you are being supervised - very closely."

THIS, isn't contemporary atheism.

Stalin was immoral. So is the God of the Bible.
God, by definition, cannot be immoral.

Do you think that the words of an amateur internet blogger are as bad as the genocides in the Bible and the Spanish Inquisition? Get a sense of perspective, man.
I didn't say that,.

As far as Christian atrocities go the actions of the Spanish Inquisition were nothing. If it wasn't for it's anti-antisemitism and the existence of the holocaust it would be lost in history.

Atheist atrocities in the name of religious philosophy come third only to Islam and Christianity.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/5/2011 6:21:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 5:52:01 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/5/2011 5:32:36 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
At 11/3/2011 7:30:07 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

HELL
Meh, I never got why people gt so offended by the idea of hell. The worse pain possible forever.

Is this an attempt at humour?
No. I'm serious.

Then I can only conclude that Zetsubou's mind has become so polluted with religion that he is now insane.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES
It is religion, what do you expect?

Why do you believe any of them? What extra-Biblical evidence exists about these alleged bizarre occurences? I find them to be totally unbelievable.
I believe it takes a certain amount of hubris to denounce all superstitions as old wive's tales. As such I believe in witches, magic, miracles, demons, ghosts, angels and the lot. It sounds silly at first but the consensus of humanity is with me on this. I like to trust that humanity is not so naive so follow their inventions as you think they do.

Have you actually seen a ghost or an angel? What did they look like? What did they do? Oh no I forgot. Scrap that. I've already deduced that Zetsubou is as mad as a march hare.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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11/5/2011 7:08:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 4:51:55 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
An by the way, "humane" has a different meaning to "human".

As long as we're criticizing people's English on the internet, that would be, "and," rather than, "an."

And, "different to," is not idiomatic; you want, "different from," or, "different than."
EmpiricalFact
Posts: 19
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11/5/2011 7:46:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 4:51:55 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
At 11/5/2011 3:01:56 PM, EmpiricalFact wrote:
At 11/4/2011 5:45:14 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:

At least when I make a point it has strength due to the decent, humane argument being presented. I don't have to put it in bold.So what you're saying is that my arguments lack of stregth beacuse they are written in Bold?what kind of reasong is that?how did you came to that convoluted conclusion?so what if i like bold?Yep, this is totally logical(sarcasm).

And for the love of Christ, please pray that he grants you the ability to write in English. Your grammar is the worst since Kelsey.I agree to this because I don't come from an English speaking country.But hey, I'm trying to do my best.

And of course we must "properly interpret" scripture and not "take it out of context" or take it at face value. We must accept God's little idiosyncracies such as finding it acceptable to beat up your pet slave - as long as he gets up in a day or two! I would explain this to you in a detailed way but, there's no use trying to explain something to a person that has already prejudged it and lacks of objectiveness when it comes to the reading the bible. 

I understand the Bible better than you think, sonny. God in man's image at the time. And I mean man's image not woman's image. And I can hazard a guess as to it's eventual fate. No, if you understood the bible in any possble way you wouldn't be making that comment about God in man's image and not in woman's in the first place.Your knowledge of the bible is so small and limited that you can only explain it using your humane reasoning,and because it's humane, it is ultimately imperfect.

The internet - where religion goes to die... Shall I say the same thing about skepticism? Yes, Indeed.

I apologise for criticising your English but the rest of my comments still stand. But it doesn't help when you don't leave a space after a comma or full stop and the whole post resembles a hastily tapped out text. And why do you feel the need to write in Bold? If there is substance behind what you say, people will pick up on that and take notice. An by the way, "humane" has a different meaning to "human".
I agree with this,i have yet to perfect my English.And yeah,i meant "human" not "humane",my sincere apologies.And no more Bold for me lol.I appreciate your suggestions.

And you are mistaken when you say I don't know the Bible - although my OT is a little rusty. You unfortunately are coming from the assumption that the Bible is true and accurate and has been looked after by an all-loving, all-just, all-powerful creator God and yet you have provided not a shred of evidence to support that.
You know that this discussion is not about the veracity and/or accuracy of the Bible.This is about interpretation or misinterpretations of texts found in the bible.Ofcourse this will all depend on your approach,as to what the bible is and whether if it was inspired by man or a deity(God).By the "you don't know the bible" phase i meant that you didn't knew the context of the texts.

How do we go about working out whether claims are likelybe true or likely to be not true?

Do you believe in the following?
1. The orbit of Pluto is 248 years
2. The theory of evolution
3. Socrates
4. Robin Hood or King Arthur
5. Big Foot
6. Alien abduction
7. Fairies at the bottom of the garden
8. Jesus could defy gravity and walk on water

Each of us has to make a judgement about various claims particularly if that claim insists we should take it seriously. No one is capable of making that judgement on our behalf. We must do it ourselves base on evidence.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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11/6/2011 11:22:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 3:42:17 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
There's no point in addressing each one individually but I'll give a generic
response.

-->I appreciate your organized point by point discussion in this posting. And I can see that you haven't received answers to your satisfaction on all topics yet...so I would like to add a bit more here. But some topics you have dropped...are you satisfied now that God is not sexist? That spirit prison (hell) is not necessariy eternal? and that there was a point(s) in Jesus cursing the fig tree? or that there ARE logical explanations for those ideas (even if you don't currently believe those ideas)...?

GOD SUPPORTS GENOCIDE/ GOD SUPPORTS SLAVERY
...readily accept a philosophy which supports appalling treatment of other human beings. .....No one even struggled with the issue, they just quietly accepted it.

-->As far as genocide: What must first be understood is that this life is not ALL there is (there is life after death)! Many humans don't realize that so they start off with a skewed view of what is really going on...not even considering ETERNAL ramifications at all!... What also must be understood is that God has an ETERNAL perspective...so a person's physical death here is not as important in value as making sure a person(s) doesn't die eternally! (consider the quote "God is more interested in our eternal well being than He is in our temporary comfort)...so even if a person dies temporally it may be for the best if they are saved ETERNALLY. Or if a person dies temporally it may be better for OTHER people eternally!
Another important thing to remember is that the Israelites bore the knowledge which led to salvation...which made them more important (in an eternal sense of trying to save everyone's souls)...and if they were wiped out or their work hindered it affected ETERNAL things, not just temporal things...for example if the Cannaanites and the Midianites fought...neither would necessarily have been favored because neither was God's chosen people to spread the gospel of salvation. But when the Israelites fought God had an interest in intervening (to influence eternal salvation issues)...Also in order for the Israelites to remain worthy to bear the gospel they could not be corrupted (or they would not be worthy to bear the vessels of salvation)...therefore evil/corrupting influences ALSO had to be kept from them as well...for the benefit of the greater eternal good...So those are the kinds of values that must be considered: what is better? To have several hundred people die a temporal death so that many people can be saved ETERNALLY?...or would it be better if the chosen people were killed off or corrupted and the means of eternal salvation were lost to EVERYONE? God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and ETERNAL life of man. So that is why He intervenes the way He did/does.

GOD IS HOMOPHOBIC/ GOD IS SEXIST
...It's harming no one.

-->I don't think it is an accurate statement when people say homosexual behavior affects no one else: consider: Even if it is fully private it still is influencing/sending the other person to hell...just like if a person is committing adultery with another person...it would be leading the other person into mortal sin. A person who engages another in homosexual relations is causing/influencing the OTHER person into committing sin...so in that way their particular action IS affecting someone eles. Do you think God ignores it when a person is influencing another person to go to hell? or would there be consequences?
Even 'PREACHING FOR' homosexuality is likely a serious sin. Also they try to adopt kids since (since they can't have any) which obviously influences and affects another person's life!...hardly kept private there, in that situation!....It is important to know that the family unit is the basic unit of society and the basic unit of ETERNITY. The family is CENTRAL to God's plan of salvation and exaltation. Adopting a child by homosexuals effectively damns the child from having an eternal family...as well as the homosexuals themselves not having a family (which affects many others and for ETERNITY, not just this life). The teaching of homosexuality in schools as normal also affects others (for example in Massachusetts) and giving no option to opt out...how is that not affecting others? Also banning speaking out against homosexuality being wrong is also affecting others (ex: Canada arresting preachers). Public displays of affection also affects others (ex: actress in L-word being kicked off of the plane) in that it was offensive to others. Wanting special tax breaks affects others...why should people get a tax break just because they engage in particular sexual practices? Also them trying to alter the very foundations of society affects others as well (ex: trying to force churches to perform gay weddings)...(forcing photographers to take their pictures or suing them)....etc...AIDS (i realize homos. debate that one) but I believe it is homosexuality that is responsible for it...and it affects others as well. So...basically to say it doesn't affect others is not an accurate statement and that is why it has to be VOTED on in society and not just granted.

JESUS AS SACRIFICE
...God sacrifices himself to himself in order to appease himself and act as a loophole to a bloodthirsty set of instructions he gave in the OT.

-->God didn't sacrifice Himself, He sacrificed His Son Jesus Christ.

There's no justice here. The Bible is effectively saying that people don't need to take responsibility for their actions - neither are they permitted to take credit for their accomplishments. A double whammy of nonsense!

-->A person is given the law, a person breaks the law, a person is punished for breaking the law...seems like justice to me. Maybe you are just used to living in the USA where laws are broken routinely and ignored and no punishments given (?)...God actually enforces His laws though.

HELL

Infinite punishment for finite wrongs some of which aren't wrong in the first place. Would any of you torture your own child in the basement for not loving you? Or not believing in you? Even for a short time? If this doesn't disturb any of you then I suggest you get professional help.

-->"some of which aren't wrong in the first place" ?? I don't understand what you mean there...all sin is wrong...that is the definition of sin...doing something wrong.

...So are you saying that a Parent should never punish a child for anything? Obviously some punishment is GOOD for a child in the LONG run...to instruct them on how to live better! No punishment beyond what is needful though!...Are you against all punishment? I already explained that Spirit Prison is NOT ETERNAL...some people will be brought forth in the resurrection of the just and some will wait in spirit prison and be brought forth later in the resurrection of the unjust.
heart_of_the_matter
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11/6/2011 11:28:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/4/2011 3:42:17 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
THE FALL

This is a bit like me as a Dad warning my 2 year old daughter to not touch the apple in the fruit bowl because there will be terrible consequences. She has no understanding why there should be anything wrong with touching the apple, nor should she have. Indeed I have just made it sound more attractive to her and I've put the suggestion in her mind. If she then touches the apple, if I was the Biblical God in this strange little scenario, I would think it was ok to banish her into the back garden in the middle of winter and consider that justice. Barking mad!

-->Like I explained God DID want them to partake! (Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the MIDST of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.) It was all part of the plan! If Adam and Eve had not partaken we wouldn't have been able to come to Earth and get bodies. Also it is necessary for us to experience mortality to learn good from evil...How could a person know the sweet if they have never tasted the bitter? Your example offered no benefits...God's plan offers many benefits, that is the difference.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES

I have heard several claims to Biblical-style miracles (proper magic ones like in the Bible, not somebody starting to recover from cancer a few days after being prayed for) and none have stood up to even the slightest scrutiny. The "devil is in the detail" about such wild assertions and until the burdon of proof has been met, I don't believe any of it. You may genuinely believe something extraordianry happened but until there's good scientific evidence, I remain highly skeptical of these idiot claims.

-->Being skeptical is fine. But why don't you pray and ask God for a witness of His reality to YOU PERSONALLY?...if you are actually interested in knowing the truth and intellectually honest, you would have nothing against doing that! Then when God gives you a personal experience you could stop telling people they are making 'idiot claims' as you would then know what you are talking about PERSONALLY.

CONTRADICTIONS

Another reason I am convinced that the Bible hasn't been looked after by a divine superpower is that it contains several contradictions and inconsistencies. The worst one probably being the death of Judas in Matthews Gospel compared with his death in Acts of the Apostles 1. In the first one Judas is remorseful and hangs himself and in Acts he falls headlong down a hill and his guts spill open!...

-->You are actually correct that the entire Bible is not completely accurate now. BUT the Bible is true inasmuch as it has been translated correctly! (which is most of it!)

AOF 1:8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
http://lds.org...

As far as the death of Judas you are correct again in that there are 2 different accounts which 'seem' to conflict. There is a more correct translation that has been given which explains the apparent contradiction: Acts 1:18 vs Matthew 27:3-10 it is explained here:
JST Matt. 27:6 … and hanged himself on a tree. And straightway he fell down, and his bowels gushed out, and he died.
http://lds.org... (click on 'and' for the translation)

IN SUMMARY
The whole thing is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley.

-->There are logical answers for EVERYTHING if you are willing to pay the price to find out.
MyVoiceInYourHead
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11/6/2011 4:34:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/5/2011 7:08:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 11/5/2011 4:51:55 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
An by the way, "humane" has a different meaning to "human".

As long as we're criticizing people's English on the internet, that would be, "and," rather than, "an."

And, "different to," is not idiomatic; you want, "different from," or, "different than."

Fair enough. The "And" one I don't think is my fault though. I've noticed that there's something wrong with the website (or at least my connection to it) in that it randomly misses off letters that I type and I have to keep going back to correct it. The odd typo I can cope with it's just that Empirical's posts were so visually horrific I had to say something.
MyVoiceInYourHead
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11/6/2011 5:06:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/6/2011 11:28:44 AM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 11/4/2011 3:42:17 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
THE FALL

This is a bit like me as a Dad warning my 2 year old daughter to not touch the apple in the fruit bowl because there will be terrible consequences. She has no understanding why there should be anything wrong with touching the apple, nor should she have. Indeed I have just made it sound more attractive to her and I've put the suggestion in her mind. If she then touches the apple, if I was the Biblical God in this strange little scenario, I would think it was ok to banish her into the back garden in the middle of winter and consider that justice. Barking mad!

-->Like I explained God DID want them to partake! (Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the MIDST of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.) It was all part of the plan! If Adam and Eve had not partaken we wouldn't have been able to come to Earth and get bodies. Also it is necessary for us to experience mortality to learn good from evil...How could a person know the sweet if they have never tasted the bitter? Your example offered no benefits...God's plan offers many benefits, that is the difference.

BIBLICAL-STYLE MIRACLES

I have heard several claims to Biblical-style miracles (proper magic ones like in the Bible, not somebody starting to recover from cancer a few days after being prayed for) and none have stood up to even the slightest scrutiny. The "devil is in the detail" about such wild assertions and until the burdon of proof has been met, I don't believe any of it. You may genuinely believe something extraordianry happened but until there's good scientific evidence, I remain highly skeptical of these idiot claims.

-->Being skeptical is fine. But why don't you pray and ask God for a witness of His reality to YOU PERSONALLY?...if you are actually interested in knowing the truth and intellectually honest, you would have nothing against doing that! Then when God gives you a personal experience you could stop telling people they are making 'idiot claims' as you would then know what you are talking about PERSONALLY.

CONTRADICTIONS

Another reason I am convinced that the Bible hasn't been looked after by a divine superpower is that it contains several contradictions and inconsistencies. The worst one probably being the death of Judas in Matthews Gospel compared with his death in Acts of the Apostles 1. In the first one Judas is remorseful and hangs himself and in Acts he falls headlong down a hill and his guts spill open!...

-->You are actually correct that the entire Bible is not completely accurate now. BUT the Bible is true inasmuch as it has been translated correctly! (which is most of it!)

AOF 1:8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
http://lds.org...

As far as the death of Judas you are correct again in that there are 2 different accounts which 'seem' to conflict. There is a more correct translation that has been given which explains the apparent contradiction: Acts 1:18 vs Matthew 27:3-10 it is explained here:
JST Matt. 27:6 … and hanged himself on a tree. And straightway he fell down, and his bowels gushed out, and he died.
http://lds.org... (click on 'and' for the translation)

IN SUMMARY
The whole thing is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley.

-->There are logical answers for EVERYTHING if you are willing to pay the price to find out.

I feel there are so many things wrong with your posts I don't know where to start. They are full of assumptions about there being an afterlife (for which there is no good evidence), that God exists at all, that what he says is sin you automatically accept that judgement as being correct (even though the Bible contains the most horrendous set of morals imaginable).

Why is the Bible the best mechanism that an all-knowing creator of the Universe can come up with for the very important role of saving people's souls for all eternity?
According to Christians the best method is a written record of what God did when he was in human form. He gets 4 other people to write his biography (2 of which he never met and its doubtful he knew the remaining 2) decades after the event and it was only assembled properly 3 centuries later as copies of copies of translations of copies. Ridiculous! If I'd been God I'd have written the Book myself and taken responsibility for it. Or better still, find a better way of communicating my very important message to humanity it to ensure an equal opportunity. What's wrong with telepathy?

On a different note, let us consider modern day knowledge and good things which we take for granted in many parts of the western world:
Medicine - e.g. disease prevention & understanding of micro-organisms
Sanitation
Science & Technlogy - e.g. computers, film and television, communication
Abolition of slavery
Equal rights for women
Equal rights for LGBT persons
Equal rights for the mentally and physically disabled
Contraception
Transport
An understanding of economics & wealth creation
Improved Justice system - e.g. principle of innocent until proved guilty
Therapies - e.g. councelling, coaching etc.
Stand up comedy and satire

None of the above are perfect but they are discoveries which have genunely improved or enriched people's lives. How many of them came from God and were suggested in the Bible? The answer: Not a single one! Indeed Christianity has actively opposed many of these improvements. Don't you think it odd that a supposedly all-knowing God has not suggested anything useful in the several hundred years he was active on the Earth (whilst allegedly parting the Red Sea, performing miracles etc.)? The whole thing is a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales. And you then reveal that the Book of Mormon is true! I started reading that recently and it was even less convincing than the Bible and compared to it it's a hyper modern text! And the gold tablet has mysteriously gone missing too!

Reading your responses I could feel waves and waves of patronising smugness hit me again and again. Your God isn't big enough, isn't moral enough, isn't believable enough, isn't accurate enough. He just isn't good enough. The Bible is simply the greatest story ever sold. There's one born every minute...
heart_of_the_matter
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11/7/2011 8:59:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/6/2011 5:06:05 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
I feel there are so many things wrong with your posts I don't know where to start. They are full of assumptions about there being an afterlife (for which there is no good evidence), that God exists at all, that what he says is sin you automatically accept that judgement as being correct (even though the Bible contains the most horrendous set of morals imaginable).

-->And you start with an assumption that there is NOT an afterlife...for which you have NO evidence against. also you have no evidence that there is not a God. And that which you 'automatically' judged to be wrong (based on your morals) [Genocide] - I gave a perfectly logical explanation of how God's morals are completely correct. As far as 'horrendous morals' please explain how it would be better if people were killed ETERNALLY rather than 'temporarily'...you of course were cherry picking the Bible, but I want to explain how even those harder to understand verses are still logical. Basically everyone knows the basic Christian moral system is not 'horrendous'...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself...etc..

Why is the Bible the best mechanism that an all-knowing creator of the Universe can come up with for the very important role of saving people's souls for all eternity?

-->Doctrine and Covenants ch. 82 has a couple good scriptures explaining that:
3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

4 Ye call upon my name for revelations, and I give them unto you; and inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings, which I give unto you, ye become transgressors; and justice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law.

Basically, not everyone is ready for more truth...Why not? because of what they would do with it...(reject it/ not live up to it) and it would end up being a cursing to them instead of a blessing. That is also why Jesus spoke in parables many times...to enlighten those who were ready for more knowledge while at the same time protecting others from furthere light they would reject.
The way God teaches people is explained in Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

....... If I'd been God I'd have written the Book myself and taken responsibility for it. Or better still, find a better way of communicating my very important message to humanity it to ensure an equal opportunity. What's wrong with telepathy?

-->God gave us the Bible and also a second witness (in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established). The Book of Mormon also contains a special promise, which if a person follows and does their part, then God will reveal to that person that the Book is true. And once you know the Book of Mormon is true then you can read how it confirms and expounds on the truths in the Bible. Yet this modern day 'brazen serpent' is ignored by many...just like in the days of Moses.
As far as telepathy - God is willing to give a person the truth by personal revelation (like I mentioned before) that is why He tells people to ask Him!
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Matthew 7:7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Joel 2:28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

On a different note, let us consider modern day knowledge and good things which we take for granted in many parts of the western world:
Medicine - e.g. disease prevention & understanding of micro-organisms
Sanitation
Science & Technlogy - e.g. computers, film and television, communication
Abolition of slavery
Equal rights for women
Equal rights for LGBT persons
Equal rights for the mentally and physically disabled
Contraception
Transport
An understanding of economics & wealth creation
Improved Justice system - e.g. principle of innocent until proved guilty
Therapies - e.g. councelling, coaching etc.
Stand up comedy and satire

None of the above are perfect but they are discoveries which have genunely improved or enriched people's lives. How many of them came from God and were suggested in the Bible? The answer: Not a single one! Indeed Christianity has actively opposed many of these improvements. Don't you think it odd that a supposedly all-knowing God has not suggested anything useful in the several hundred years he was active on the Earth (whilst allegedly parting the Red Sea, performing miracles etc.)?

--> science has been proven its self to be wrong more times than religion has.
The earth is flat? as far as medicine....mercury in medicine, bloodletting (that is how George Washington died),the numberless medicines which have been revoked by the FDA or have caused harm, smoking is good for you, ecstasy is okay, marijuana does zero harm to the body, eating tomatoes will kill you.
Other science: asbestos in ships, lead in pipes, nuclear bomb blasts near civil populations, the sun revolves around the earth, going faster than the speed of sound is impossible, breast feeding is bad,...

Abolition of slavery = Abraham Lincoln was instrumental in doing that in the USA! He has a sister named Sarah ...Guess how the names "Abraham and Sarah" were chosen?

Even though many try to also promote a false dichotomy between science and religion, none actually exists! There have been many religious scientists for example: Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Descarted, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, Kelvin, Max Planck, and even Einstein firmly denied atheism.

also most universities in the USA were founded by religions...in summary - there is no conflict between true science and religion.

The whole thing is a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales. And you then reveal that the Book of Mormon is true! I started reading that recently and it was even less convincing than the Bible and compared to it it's a hyper modern text! And the gold tablet has mysteriously gone missing too!
-->There is no mystery where the tablets went...it is stated plainly in Joseph Smith's history:
http://lds.org...
There are also many witness who testified of seeing (and even holding the plates)
Testimony of the 3 Witnesses, and Testimony of the 8 Witnesses:
http://lds.org...

Reading your responses I could feel waves and waves of patronising smugness hit me again and again.
-->Which is better 'smugness' or direct insults?
you're glad you're not part of the 'sinister' Christian club...
our comments have been so 'vacuous' and empty...that you are surprised our 'brains didn't collapse on themselves'
you say that God can't even judge a cake making competition...
and that the Fall is 'barking mad' and that you are skeptical of our "Idiot Claims"...
and you hope were are closely supervised...

I actually didn't even mean to be 'smug' I attempted to take the high road and be mature and avoid insulting you...even in the face of what I just presented to you above. When you insult things that people hold sacred it is offensive just so you know...and sometimes people won't react to you as kindly and respectfully as you would like...So again ...do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I do apologize if you took any offenses personally, I didn't mean to cause any hard feelings...OK? are we good?
JustCallMeTarzan
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11/7/2011 9:18:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 6:52:18 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

the Christian God exists or he does not exist, if he exists it is quite clear that his marketing literature is not the whole truth.

Oh that's good... I like that. I might steal it.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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11/8/2011 3:28:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/7/2011 8:59:29 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:

-->And you start with an assumption that there is NOT an afterlife...for which you have NO evidence against. also you have no evidence that there is not a God. And that which you 'automatically' judged to be wrong (based on your morals) [Genocide] - I gave a perfectly logical explanation of how God's morals are completely correct. As far as 'horrendous morals' please explain how it would be better if people were killed ETERNALLY rather than 'temporarily'...you of course were cherry picking the Bible, but I want to explain how even those harder to understand verses are still logical. Basically everyone knows the basic Christian moral system is not 'horrendous'...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself...etc..

You're just trying to shift the burdon of proof, which by the way is on the claimant (the theist in this case). I don't have to prove anything. If someone claims that something exists and insists that I take it seriously, they had better provide good evidence or I am entirely justified in my disbelief.
For instance, let's say I woke up this morning and was utterly convinced that I had been abducted by aliens and that they experimented on my arm. I also remember them saying that they would be abducting you next to carry out the same experimentation. "Heart Of The Matter will be next" they declared in strange guttural whispers. I then try to warn you of what's to come. If I can't provide any evidence for my claim, you are justified in dismissing it. If however I can provide good scientific evidence that my arm was surgically removed and then replaced or if I managed to sneak some wierd alien artefact off the mothership then that is at least a start.
There is no rational justification for me to believe the ramblings of an Iron Age myth that is based on a Bronze Age myth. None.

--> science has been proven its self to be wrong more times than religion has.
The earth is flat? as far as medicine....mercury in medicine, bloodletting (that is how George Washington died),the numberless medicines which have been revoked by the FDA or have caused harm, smoking is good for you, ecstasy is okay, marijuana does zero harm to the body, eating tomatoes will kill you.
Other science: asbestos in ships, lead in pipes, nuclear bomb blasts near civil populations, the sun revolves around the earth, going faster than the speed of sound is impossible, breast feeding is bad,...

You don't understand the scientific method. The point is it uses Post Axiomatic Justification and is supposed to be self-correcting. It homes in on the truth of a claim. Religion never admits errors with its own dogmas. If it did it would be finished. The game would be up. This dialogue between us has been evidence of that.

Even though many try to also promote a false dichotomy between science and religion, none actually exists! There have been many religious scientists for example: Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Descarted, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, Kelvin, Max Planck, and even Einstein firmly denied atheism.

Christianity means we must believe in miracles and other tall tales. These events necessarily enter the testable realm of science. Is it possible for a donkey to talk intelligently in a human language (Numbers 22)? We can test this. Any science would demonstrate this to be laughably absurd.

also most universities in the USA were founded by religions...in summary - there is no conflict between true science and religion.

The creation myth versus the fossil record is a conflict.

We understand the workings of the brain better than we did 2000 years ago. When parts of the brain shut down this results in personality changes, loss of functions, a limiting of free will. When the whole brain shuts down (at death) why should any of what makes us who we are be preserved? You get one shot at life.

So again ...do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The Golden Rule has not been copyrighted by Christianity.

I do apologize if you took any offenses personally, I didn't mean to cause any hard feelings...OK? are we good?

I'm afraid we can never be friends because you have placed a barrier between us with what you consider to be acceptable.

For us to be friends I would have to believe the following:
1. that my friends and family will burn in Hell forever and that they deserve it.
2. miracles and tall tales that violate known laws of science are actually true.
3. genocide and slavery are OK because I mustn't take it "out of context."
4. waste the only life I know I'm going to get on a blatant lie and then just hang around waiting to die and annoy people by spreading the same porky pies I've bought into.

I would rather face reality on reality's terms than believe an anti-social, far-fetched, self-contradictory delusion.

Come on debate.org. Get me some better Xians to debate with. These ones simply aren't up to scratch.
wiploc
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11/8/2011 11:39:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/6/2011 4:34:12 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
At 11/5/2011 7:08:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 11/5/2011 4:51:55 PM, MyVoiceInYourHead wrote:
An by the way, "humane" has a different meaning to "human".

As long as we're criticizing people's English on the internet, that would be, "and," rather than, "an."

And, "different to," is not idiomatic; you want, "different from," or, "different than."

Fair enough. The "And" one I don't think is my fault though. I've noticed that there's something wrong with the website (or at least my connection to it) in that it randomly misses off letters that I type and I have to keep going back to correct it. The odd typo I can cope with it's just that Empirical's posts were so visually horrific I had to say something.

I only commented on the "and" because I didn't want people saying, "How did you manage to pick up on the "different to" error when you overlooked a more obvious one?"

Hey, you've had some dynamite posts in this thread. Great job.