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God can, and has sinned

numa
Posts: 61
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5/10/2009 11:09:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
god can't sin. even if he did something "evil," christians would just say that it was "necessary" or fulfilled god's will. for instance, the plagues were justified because they defended god's "chosen" people. if you say the fact that he has "chosen" people is a sin of itself, it won't matter, because god can't sin - obviously it's a necessary and mysterious act that will be revealed in due time. (i'm atheist, by the way, just expressing the christian point of view).
brycef
Posts: 160
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5/10/2009 11:33:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
God is not held to the same standards as man, we cannot comprehend His ways, He is infallible, blah blah blah.
Of course, God, being the omniscient creator of everything, created Satan, and by extension sin. Therefore, it's subject to his whims and he cannot sin, but in creating sin, he's just as bad as any sinner. When the sinner commits a sin, that person brings evil into the world. God gave humanity the potential to commit sin and created sin itself through the devil, and being omniscient, he would've known that humanity would commit the sinful acts he created. So no, He's not a sinner because he's incapable of sin. However, he is responsible for all the evil, strife and sin in the world. Pretty sadistic, if you ask me.
BTW, I haven't read your debate, but I have read Paradise Lost and the Marriage of Heaven and Hell, so there ya go.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/10/2009 3:35:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.


.


Everything can been seen as evil, to us the evil God does is good. Only good.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/10/2009 3:48:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 5/10/2009 3:35:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.


.


Everything can been seen as evil, to us the evil God does is good. Only good.


Sorry let me refrase that, Eveything can be seen as evil, to us the evil God does, which wouled be in the eye of Satan is good in our eyes.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/10/2009 4:33:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/10/2009 3:48:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 3:35:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.


.


Everything can been seen as evil, to us the evil God does is good. Only good.


Sorry let me refrase that, Eveything can be seen as evil, to us the evil God does, which wouled be in the eye of Satan is good in our eyes.

So if God ordered the rape of women, that is actually 'good', but because we see through the er, 'contact lenses of Satan' so to speak, it looks evil to us.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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5/10/2009 5:51:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Considering God spends much of his time in the Old Testament...

Killing babies
Killing homosexuals
Killing sodomites
Killing gentiles
Ordering genocide
Ordering slavery
Ordering sexual slavery
Ordering massacres (of animals)
Ordering the waste of resources...

I'd say it's pretty obvious to anyone with a developed sense of morality that God has sinned more than any other single person on the planet...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/11/2009 3:31:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/10/2009 5:51:16 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Considering God spends much of his time in the Old Testament...

Killing babies
Killing homosexuals
Killing sodomites
Killing gentiles
Ordering genocide
Ordering slavery
Ordering sexual slavery
Ordering massacres (of animals)
Ordering the waste of resources...

I'd say it's pretty obvious to anyone with a developed sense of morality that God has sinned more than any other single person on the planet...

All these thing must be viewed in the light of God protecting and developing His chosen people. If the Jews had been decimated by their (much worse) enemies, then Gods Law would have been lost (the law that all civilisation is built upon) and, infinietly worse, the Saviour Who was born to redeem all of mankind would not have been born.
The O.T is God doing things our way.
The N.T His way.. MERCIFULLY. sin? stone? first?

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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5/11/2009 6:53:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/10/2009 5:51:16 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Considering God spends much of his time in the Old Testament...

Killing babies
Killing homosexuals
Killing sodomites
Killing gentiles
Ordering genocide
Ordering slavery
Ordering sexual slavery
Ordering massacres (of animals)
Ordering the waste of resources...

I'd say it's pretty obvious to anyone with a developed sense of morality that God has sinned more than any other single person on the planet...

God is a dictator. His laws don't apply to him, obviously.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

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JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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5/11/2009 7:40:16 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/11/2009 3:31:58 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

All these thing must be viewed in the light of God protecting and developing His chosen people. If the Jews had been decimated by their (much worse) enemies, then Gods Law would have been lost (the law that all civilisation is built upon) and, infinietly worse, the Saviour Who was born to redeem all of mankind would not have been born.

If God's Law is the foundation of ALL civilization... explain how other civilizations predate the Jews? And explain the foundation of Jewish civilization before the laws are GIVEN to them in Exodus?

Your position is obviously false. Care to try again?

The O.T is God doing things our way.
The N.T His way.. MERCIFULLY. sin? stone? first?

If our way is sinful, and God is "doing things our way," then you have just admitted God has sinned. Care to try again?

And for the love of God - we've heard your stupid quote about who is for us and who isn't. Read Luke 9:50 and Mark 9:40. Explain the direct contradiction before using the quote again.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/12/2009 2:36:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/11/2009 7:40:16 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 5/11/2009 3:31:58 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

All these thing must be viewed in the light of God protecting and developing His chosen people. If the Jews had been decimated by their (much worse) enemies, then Gods Law would have been lost (the law that all civilisation is built upon) and, infinietly worse, the Saviour Who was born to redeem all of mankind would not have been born.

If God's Law is the foundation of ALL civilization... explain how other civilizations predate the Jews? And explain the foundation of Jewish civilization before the laws are GIVEN to them in Exodus?

Your position is obviously false. Care to try again?

Now you have suddenly switched from arguing against the logic of Christian belief, which states the earth is 6000 years old and that the only peoples to predate the Jews were Abrahams ancestors (only a few generations) TO introducing secular beliefs of pre-jewish civilasations and histories etc.
Your position is dishonest. Care to try again?

The O.T is God doing things our way.
The N.T His way.. MERCIFULLY. sin? stone? first?

If our way is sinful, and God is "doing things our way," then you have just admitted God has sinned. Care to try again?

God cannot sin. Whatever He does is right.
You have not addressed the simple fact that you may not, cannot, judge Him from your ridiculous position.

And for the love of God - we've heard your stupid quote about who is for us and who isn't. Read Luke 9:50 and Mark 9:40. Explain the direct contradiction before using the quote again.

You are in NO position to start throwing your weight around here. Your reputation is in tatters.
You do not even have the brains to keep the AnimeFanTony acc. going for a few more days and retire it gradually.

So.. just for old times sake..

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse."
The Cross.. the Cross.
LB628
Posts: 176
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5/12/2009 9:10:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Now you have suddenly switched from arguing against the logic of Christian belief, which states the earth is 6000 years old and that the only peoples to predate the Jews were Abrahams ancestors (only a few generations) TO introducing secular beliefs of pre-jewish civilasations and histories etc.
Your position is dishonest. Care to try again?


I would. Arguing against the logic of Christian belief and introducing secular beliefs are not mutually exclusive or dishonest. Particularly because we are talking about the logic of Christian belief, we need to look at the evidence. And the evidence says that there were non-Jewish civilizations before the jews. Example: Sumer. Assyria. China.

God cannot sin. Whatever He does is right.
You have not addressed the simple fact that you may not, cannot, judge Him from your ridiculous position.


So, God says certain things, as outlined in the 10 commandments for instance are wrong and sinful, correct? And one of these things is murder correct? And yet God has murdered, as the Bible says so, correct? Ergo, God has sinned, according to his own definition.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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5/12/2009 11:22:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 2:36:31 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Now you have suddenly switched from arguing against the logic of Christian belief, which states the earth is 6000 years old and that the only peoples to predate the Jews were Abrahams ancestors (only a few generations) TO introducing secular beliefs of pre-jewish civilasations and histories etc.
Your position is dishonest. Care to try again?

Like LB said - there's nothing dishonest or even inconsistent about it. It's called reductio ad absurdum , but then again, one wouldn't expect you to know anything about logical arguments. And you have yet to address the issue, which as you are fond of pointing out about R_R, is argument by deflection. So... yet again... care to give it another try there??

God cannot sin. Whatever He does is right.

And where is your basis for this? It says in a couple places the the Lord is perfect and good and holy, but it also states numerous times that you shall not tempt the Lord your god. If God is perfect, he wouldn't be susceptible to temptation...

Whatever God does is right? Was it right to kill innocent babies when he flooded the earth? Was it right to kill innocent babies when he killed the firstborn in Egypt? Was it right to order the genocide of civilizations down to the last man, woman, child, "OX AND A$$" ??

The position that whatever God does is right is completely idiotic, and at the same time completely undermines Christian morality. If the basis for the criteria of deciding right and wrong is based on God's ideologies, then the WILD differences in what god does and what he says throws this basis out the window.

You have not addressed the simple fact that you may not, cannot, judge Him from your ridiculous position.

God's law was given only to the Jews. Since I am not a Jew, I am not bound by God's law. If the law concerning judging God is binding on non-Jews, then the laws concerning not eating shrimp, pigs, rabbits, etc... are binding on you. Obviously, God's laws are not binding on non-Jews. Therefore, I can judge God all I want, ESPECIALLY by his own laws.

You are in NO position to start throwing your weight around here. Your reputation is in tatters.
You do not even have the brains to keep the AnimeFanTony acc. going for a few more days and retire it gradually.

This makes me giggle... You have yet to show any sort of evidence of my supposed multiple accounts, yet continue to spew nonsense insisting that they are true. I guess this shouldn't be too surprising, given you spew the same nonsense about your beliefs in all sorts of things you don't have evidence for. Your arguments about my multiple accounts are ad hominem and ad nauseum, both of which are invalid. And if you keep it up, I'll just start reporting the posts for harassment.

Furthermore, if you think MY reputation is in tatters, you have some serious self-reflecting to do. I'm pretty widely recognized as one of the foremost atheists on the site, as well as one of the better debaters around. You, on the other hand, are a forum troll who lacks the intelligence to back up his positions with a debate.

So if you want to assert my reputation is in tatters and I lack the intelligence to retire the multiple accounts that I don't have... I suggest you put your views in a debate and subject them to some scrutiny instead of hiding behind the votelessness of a forum. Or do you like the protection?

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse."


Luke 9:50:
"And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

Mark 9:40:
"For he that is not against us is on our part."


Explain the discrepancy. You obviously cannot. And for Pete's sakes, use a Bible when you quote things. It might make you actually resemble something vaguely intelligible and credible.

What is Religious 46 (Beyond Good and Evil):

"[The Christian Faith]... resembles in a gruesome manner a continual suicide of reason."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/12/2009 12:40:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 5/10/2009 4:33:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/10/2009 3:48:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 3:35:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.


.


Everything can been seen as evil, to us the evil God does is good. Only good.


Sorry let me refrase that, Eveything can be seen as evil, to us the evil God does, which wouled be in the eye of Satan is good in our eyes.

So if God ordered the rape of women, that is actually 'good', but because we see through the er, 'contact lenses of Satan' so to speak, it looks evil to us.


God wouldn't do that, end of. Simple as God wouldn't.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/12/2009 12:47:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 12:40:00 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 4:33:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/10/2009 3:48:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 3:35:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.


.


Everything can been seen as evil, to us the evil God does is good. Only good.


Sorry let me refrase that, Eveything can be seen as evil, to us the evil God does, which wouled be in the eye of Satan is good in our eyes.

So if God ordered the rape of women, that is actually 'good', but because we see through the er, 'contact lenses of Satan' so to speak, it looks evil to us.


God wouldn't do that, end of. Simple as God wouldn't.

Rofl. Oh God would never order the rape of women. He only sticks to genocide, killing babies, and ordering people to be stoned to death, that's all. The rape of women is just too extreme for God.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/12/2009 12:53:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 5/11/2009 6:53:34 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 5/10/2009 5:51:16 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Considering God spends much of his time in the Old Testament...

Killing babies
Killing homosexuals
Killing sodomites
Killing gentiles
Ordering genocide
Ordering slavery
Ordering sexual slavery
Ordering massacres (of animals)
Ordering the waste of resources...

I'd say it's pretty obvious to anyone with a developed sense of morality that God has sinned more than any other single person on the planet...

God is a dictator. His laws don't apply to him, obviously.


God ordered to kill these people, when God's people the Israelites were sent to kill the people who killing babies, killed and raped woman, killed children and families, had sex with who they wanted, these people were very violent and were blood lust people, when the Israelites were send to kill these people, they were homosexuals, they had babies, since God ordered them to wipe them all out babies/chrildren were included. However the Israelites aparted from God and started to do the things which God ordered to be distroyed.

So it is not as simple as God ordering things like sexual slavery and rape. This is why Jesus said, "You may have heard, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, turn the other cheek." Quite ingorant aren't you all?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/12/2009 1:36:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 12:53:49 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/11/2009 6:53:34 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 5/10/2009 5:51:16 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Considering God spends much of his time in the Old Testament...

Killing babies
Killing homosexuals
Killing sodomites
Killing gentiles
Ordering genocide
Ordering slavery
Ordering sexual slavery
Ordering massacres (of animals)
Ordering the waste of resources...

I'd say it's pretty obvious to anyone with a developed sense of morality that God has sinned more than any other single person on the planet...

God is a dictator. His laws don't apply to him, obviously.


God ordered to kill these people, when God's people the Israelites were sent to kill the people who killing babies, killed and raped woman, killed children and families, had sex with who they wanted, these people were very violent and were blood lust people, when the Israelites were send to kill these people, they were homosexuals, they had babies, since God ordered them to wipe them all out babies/chrildren were included. However the Israelites aparted from God and started to do the things which God ordered to be distroyed.

So it is not as simple as God ordering things like sexual slavery and rape. This is why Jesus said, "You may have heard, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, turn the other cheek." Quite ingorant aren't you all?

Nice try, but killing is never justified. You can say, "oh, but they deserved it," or "oh, they defied god's will," etc. it doesn't matter. God betrays the teachings of Jesus plain and simple. That's that. Instead of turning the other cheeck he says "You disobeyed me, I hate you all, you're not worthy, now you must pay in blood!"

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
LB628
Posts: 176
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5/12/2009 1:49:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"God ordered to kill these people, when God's people the Israelites were sent to kill the people who killing babies, killed and raped woman, killed children and families, had sex with who they wanted, these people were very violent and were blood lust people, when the Israelites were send to kill these people, they were homosexuals, they had babies, since God ordered them to wipe them all out babies/chrildren were included. However the Israelites aparted from God and started to do the things which God ordered to be distroyed."

This presumably includes the episode just after the 10 Commandments were issued, when Moses came back down the mountain and discovered the Israelites had built a golden calf.
Wait......
Nevermind. The only crime there was not worshiping God. For which they were killed.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/12/2009 3:25:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 5/12/2009 12:47:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/12/2009 12:40:00 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 4:33:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/10/2009 3:48:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 3:35:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/10/2009 2:31:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
God is omnipresent, including within Satan. Therefore he takes part in evil all the time.


.


Everything can been seen as evil, to us the evil God does is good. Only good.


Sorry let me refrase that, Eveything can be seen as evil, to us the evil God does, which wouled be in the eye of Satan is good in our eyes.

So if God ordered the rape of women, that is actually 'good', but because we see through the er, 'contact lenses of Satan' so to speak, it looks evil to us.


God wouldn't do that, end of. Simple as God wouldn't.

Rofl. Oh God would never order the rape of women. He only sticks to genocide, killing babies, and ordering people to be stoned to death, that's all. The rape of women is just too extreme for God.

.

I explained this, now we can end it. God gave justist, it needed to happed despite of the babies and small chrildren, it says, "Those who do not accept children will not be accepted in to heaven."
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/12/2009 3:28:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 11:22:20 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 5/12/2009 2:36:31 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Now you have suddenly switched from arguing against the logic of Christian belief, which states the earth is 6000 years old and that the only peoples to predate the Jews were Abrahams ancestors (only a few generations) TO introducing secular beliefs of pre-jewish civilisations and histories etc.
Your position is dishonest. Care to try again?

Like LB said - there's nothing dishonest or even inconsistent about it. It's called reductio ad absurdum , but then again, one wouldn't expect you to know anything about logical arguments. And you have yet to address the issue, which as you are fond of pointing out about R_R, is argument by deflection. So... yet again... care to give it another try there??
Oohh Latin.. scary.
So, do you want me to defend my beliefs (fundamental, straight down the line, Bible believin' Christianity) OR your beliefs?
You attack Christian doctrine and as soon as things get sticky it's.. " What about this OTHER theory about some other stuff I heard of once.. maybe."
We are talking about FAITH. I have faith in Gods Word. 100%. That should answer most if not all your questions. You wanna debate the logic of God Word, fine.. but it is one or the other. Never mind LB or anyone else.
God cannot sin. Whatever He does is right.

And where is your basis for this? It says in a couple places the the Lord is perfect and good and holy, but it also states numerous times that you shall not tempt the Lord your god. If God is perfect, he wouldn't be susceptible to temptation...
Right, now we're back to a discussion on the logic of Christian belief. See that it remains that way.
The command for us not to 'tempt the Lord your God' is entirely (like all commands) for our benefit and not for Gods protection.
Whatever God does is right? Was it right to kill innocent babies when he flooded the earth? Was it right to kill innocent babies when he killed the firstborn in Egypt? Was it right to order the genocide of civilizations down to the last man, woman, child, "OX AND A$$" ??
You wish to start half way into the story and imply a perfect humanity and a perfect creation. We must begin at the start. We betrayed God. We died as a consequence of this. Not just physically but much much worst, spiritually. All of creation was effected by this monstrous action.
We have to view everything God did after this as pure MERCY.
He mercifully spared Adam and Eve.. He mercifully saved Noah and His family. He mercifully blessed the Jewish nation. He mercifully gave His only begotten Son to pay the price of our redemption.
The position that whatever God does is right is completely idiotic, and at the same time completely undermines Christian morality. If the basis for the criteria of deciding right and wrong is based on God's ideologies, then the WILD differences in what god does and what he says throws this basis out the window.
*imagine*
You commit an horrendous crime.
The judge says 'you are free to go'. He always says that. To everyone.
OR..
You commit an horrendous crime. Every person, ever, who has been tried for this crime has suffered terrible consequences.
The judge says " you are free to go."
Which example reveals what mercy really is?
You have not addressed the simple fact that you may not, cannot, judge Him from your ridiculous position.

God's law was given only to the Jews. Since I am not a Jew, I am not bound by God's law. If the law concerning judging God is binding on non-Jews, then the laws concerning not eating shrimp, pigs, rabbits, etc... are binding on you. Obviously, God's laws are not binding on non-Jews. Therefore, I can judge God all I want, ESPECIALLY by his own laws.
The Law is 'negative'.. (you must not do this etc) the Spirit is positive.. We are under a new covenant. The law only applies to sinners!
Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.



You are in NO position to start throwing your weight around here. Your reputation is in tatters.
You do not even have the brains to keep the AnimeFanTony acc. going for a few more days and retire it gradually.

This makes me giggle... You have yet to show any sort of evidence of my supposed multiple accounts, yet continue to spew nonsense insisting that they are true. I guess this shouldn't be too surprising, given you spew the same nonsense about your beliefs in all sorts of things you don't have evidence for. Your arguments about my multiple accounts are ad hominem and ad nauseum, both of which are invalid. And if you keep it up, I'll just start reporting the posts for harassment.
You do what you have to do. Troll.
Furthermore, if you think MY reputation is in tatters, you have some serious self-reflecting to do. I'm pretty widely recognized as one of the foremost atheists on the site, as well as one of the better debaters around. You, on the other hand, are a forum troll who lacks the intelligence to back up his positions with a debate.
All the more reason I should enlighten people to your true calling.
So if you want to assert my reputation is in tatters and I lack the intelligence to retire the multiple accounts that I don't have... I suggest you put your views in a debate and subject them to some scrutiny instead of hiding behind the votelessness of a forum. Or do you like the protection?
I have considered this option but what will it really prove? that you have more 'friends' to vote for you?
These are my sincerely held beliefs about you. To be accused of 'hiding' from you is nothing short of perverse.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse."


Luke 9:50:
"And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

Mark 9:40:
"For he that is not against us is on our part."


Explain the discrepancy. You obviously cannot. And for Pete's sakes, use a Bible when you quote things. It might make you actually resemble something vaguely intelligible and credible.

They do not even contradict one another.

What is Religious 46 (Beyond Good and Evil):

"[The Christian Faith]... resembles in a gruesome manner a continual suicide of reason."


I grew out of this bloke in my teens. Son a preacher as I recall.

John 8:32 (New King James Version)
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

The Cross.. the Cross.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/12/2009 3:29:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 5/12/2009 1:36:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/12/2009 12:53:49 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 5/11/2009 6:53:34 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 5/10/2009 5:51:16 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Considering God spends much of his time in the Old Testament...

Killing babies
Killing homosexuals
Killing sodomites
Killing gentiles
Ordering genocide
Ordering slavery
Ordering sexual slavery
Ordering massacres (of animals)
Ordering the waste of resources...

I'd say it's pretty obvious to anyone with a developed sense of morality that God has sinned more than any other single person on the planet...

God is a dictator. His laws don't apply to him, obviously.


God ordered to kill these people, when God's people the Israelites were sent to kill the people who killing babies, killed and raped woman, killed children and families, had sex with who they wanted, these people were very violent and were blood lust people, when the Israelites were send to kill these people, they were homosexuals, they had babies, since God ordered them to wipe them all out babies/chrildren were included. However the Israelites aparted from God and started to do the things which God ordered to be distroyed.

So it is not as simple as God ordering things like sexual slavery and rape. This is why Jesus said, "You may have heard, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, turn the other cheek." Quite ingorant aren't you all?

Nice try, but killing is never justified. You can say, "oh, but they deserved it," or "oh, they defied god's will," etc. it doesn't matter. God betrays the teachings of Jesus plain and simple. That's that. Instead of turning the other cheeck he says "You disobeyed me, I hate you all, you're not worthy, now you must pay in blood!"

.


Jesus is God, to where is your point, or did you forget that? So Jesus was the God in heaven who comanded those battles to take place, through conscious comunication, prayer or vision, I am not sure?
Chuckles
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5/12/2009 3:54:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 3:28:00 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse."


Luke 9:50:
"And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

Mark 9:40:
"For he that is not against us is on our part."


Explain the discrepancy. You obviously cannot. And for Pete's sakes, use a Bible when you quote things. It might make you actually resemble something vaguely intelligible and credible.

They do not even contradict one another.

aaand...how does that not contradict?
Group A is "your side"...Christians in your case i guess
Group B is "their side" Satanists?
Group C has not chosen to affiliate with either side.
One verse says Group C, being not against A, are with you.
Another says Group C, being not A, is against you.
HOW is that not a contradiction?
"Pumas are wretched beasts with enourmous salty genitals."-MadMonkey889

: At 5/5/2009 9:47:22 PM, rogerklotz wrote:
:That's obviously changed by the government. The Atlanteans probably had something to do with it.
: QUIT USING LOGIC

: At 4/25/2009 3:09:34 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
:God is GOING to have His way with you.
: At 5/5/2009 11:41:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
:When both sides can agree and disagree without someone quoting Proverbs, then the debate comes worthwhile
LB628
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5/12/2009 4:07:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 3:28:00 PM, DATCMOTO wrote::
Oohh Latin.. scary.
So, do you want me to defend my beliefs (fundamental, straight down the line, Bible believin' Christianity) OR your beliefs?
You attack Christian doctrine and as soon as things get sticky it's.. " What about this OTHER theory about some other stuff I heard of once.. maybe."
We are talking about FAITH. I have faith in Gods Word. 100%. That should answer most if not all your questions. You wanna debate the logic of God Word, fine.. but it is one or the other. Never mind LB or anyone else.


What he wants is for you to defend your belief from his belief. And given that you are defending the "logic of Christian belief" your defense needs to consist of logic, not faith, which it has not.
DATCMOTO
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5/12/2009 4:21:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 4:07:55 PM, LB628 wrote:
At 5/12/2009 3:28:00 PM, DATCMOTO wrote::
Oohh Latin.. scary.
So, do you want me to defend my beliefs (fundamental, straight down the line, Bible believin' Christianity) OR your beliefs?
You attack Christian doctrine and as soon as things get sticky it's.. " What about this OTHER theory about some other stuff I heard of once.. maybe."
We are talking about FAITH. I have faith in Gods Word. 100%. That should answer most if not all your questions. You wanna debate the logic of God Word, fine.. but it is one or the other. Never mind LB or anyone else.


What he wants is for you to defend your belief from his belief. And given that youare defending the "logic of Christian belief" your defense needs to consist of logic, not faith, which it has not.

He hasn't got beliefs, he's got excuses.
I'm defending the Word of god, not discussing histories I do not believe in.
Ask yourself why would anyone wanna discuss Christianity if they absolutely did not believe it?
Most, if not all of the militant atheists on this sight are back-sliders, MEANING defeated Christians. Now the enemy gives them no rest unless they do his bidding.
He offered them freedom and gave them slavery.

Jeremiah 7:24 (New King James Version)
24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.
The Cross.. the Cross.
LB628
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5/12/2009 5:09:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 4:21:37 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
"He hasn't got beliefs, he's got excuses.
I'm defending the Word of god, not discussing histories I do not believe in.
Ask yourself why would anyone wanna discuss Christianity if they absolutely did not believe it?
Most, if not all of the militant atheists on this sight are back-sliders, MEANING defeated Christians. Now the enemy gives them no rest unless they do his bidding.
He offered them freedom and gave them slavery."

What is he trying to excuse?
Given what we are arguing, defending the word of god is discussing histories that you do not believe in.
As for why people would want to discuss Christianity if they did not believe it, it is because so many other people do. And then those people come on here, and shout bible quotes.

This still does not answer how you are trying to defend the logic of the Christian faith, without logically explaining that faith.
JustCallMeTarzan
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5/12/2009 6:38:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 3:28:00 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Oohh Latin.. scary.
So, do you want me to defend my beliefs (fundamental, straight down the line, Bible believin' Christianity) OR your beliefs?
You attack Christian doctrine and as soon as things get sticky it's.. " What about this OTHER theory about some other stuff I heard of once.. maybe."
We are talking about FAITH. I have faith in Gods Word. 100%. That should answer most if not all your questions. You wanna debate the logic of God Word, fine.. but it is one or the other. Never mind LB or anyone else.

Care to back up that with a debate? There is no logic to Christian beliefs. I attack ANY position that is logically incoherent. And besides, it is of little consequence since the doctrines of Christianity are just as inconsistent as the logic!

Right, now we're back to a discussion on the logic of Christian belief. See that it remains that way.
The command for us not to 'tempt the Lord your God' is entirely (like all commands) for our benefit and not for Gods protection.

I never suggested it was for God's protection. God gets annoyed with all sorts of things. We don't swat flies for PROTECTION... we swat flies because they annoy us. Like when the flies worship a different god... But you still haven't responded to the notion that a perfect God would be free of temptation...

You wish to start half way into the story and imply a perfect humanity and a perfect creation. We must begin at the start. We betrayed God. We died as a consequence of this. Not just physically but much much worst, spiritually. All of creation was effected by this monstrous action.
We have to view everything God did after this as pure MERCY.

Oh, yes... killing babies is SOOOOO merciful. What the hell are you smoking?

He mercifully spared Adam and Eve.. He mercifully saved Noah and His family. He mercifully blessed the Jewish nation. He mercifully gave His only begotten Son to pay the price of our redemption.

So... despite the fact that God KNEW Adam and Eve would sin, he still chooses to punish future generations even though Deuteronomy 24:16 states "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Pray tell, if original sin was caused by ADAM AND EVE, what are the sins of the baby that they deserve God's "mercy" ???

*imagine*
You commit an horrendous crime.
The judge says 'you are free to go'. He always says that. To everyone.
OR..
You commit an horrendous crime. Every person, ever, who has been tried for this crime has suffered terrible consequences.
The judge says " you are free to go."
Which example reveals what mercy really is?

The second of course, but that doesn't address in any way the fact that the inconsistencies in God's behavior and laws undermines Christian morality. Take two?

The Law is 'negative'.. (you must not do this etc) the Spirit is positive.. We are under a new covenant.

You need to take a basic class in logic. Negative laws start "Thou shalt not." Positive laws start "Thou shall." For example, the law concerning honoring thy father and mother is a positive law. If it were a negative law, it would be OK to show ambivalence to them. But God's law states that we need to actively honor them. The law is both negative and positive.

The law only applies to sinners!

If this were true, then prohibitions on murder wouldn't apply if I'd not murdered anyone. Then my first murder would be sin-free, as there was no law against it before. And here comes the crap about how we are all born sinners... but if that's so, why make the distinction???

Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.


So when I express my girlfriend and I express our love for each other and take joy in premarital sex, there is no law against that?? And why on earth is one of the fruits of the spirit LONG SUFFERING ??

You do what you have to do. Troll.
All the more reason I should enlighten people to your true calling.

Oh no - he's calling me names. Boo-frickity-hoo. When confronted with arguments he doesn't understand or can't refute, DAT acts like a 3rd grader. Lovely.

I have considered this option but what will it really prove? that you have more 'friends' to vote for you?

Actually, it's funny how religious debates on this site get vote-bombed AGAINST atheists, yet I still managed to best your puny religious "arguments." So the challenge remains. If God is for you, who can be against?

These are my sincerely held beliefs about you. To be accused of 'hiding' from you is nothing short of perverse.

Oh - you're not hiding from ME - you're hiding from allowing your beliefs to be actually scrutinized and taken apart because you couldn't accept it if your belief system was shown to be contradictory. That would shake your world so much you wouldn't know WHAT to do.

They do not even contradict one another.

I suppose it would be more correct to say that it's false and contradicts reality, though not necessarily itself.

He who is not with me is against me. (~W -> A)
He who is not against me is with me. (~A -> W)

You can't define a set in terms of the contrapositive. That's like defining dog by saying "If it's not a dog, it's a cat. If it's not a cat, it's a dog." When there are other options, the statement is false. The fact that there are people that just don't care about god one way or the other (Hindus anyone?), indicates that the pair is false and contradictory to reality.

I grew out of this bloke [Nietzsche] in my teens. Son a preacher as I recall.

Sins of the father, sins of the son, etc... all over again. Faith and reason are mutually incompatible. The quote stands.

John 8:32 (New King James Version)
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."


Galatians 4:16 (KJV)
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?


Apparently in DAT's mind...
DATCMOTO
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5/13/2009 5:18:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/12/2009 6:38:59 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

Care to back up that with a debate? There is no logic to Christian beliefs. I attack ANY position that is logically incoherent. And besides, it is of little consequence since the doctrines of Christianity are just as inconsistent as the logic!
I accept any debate that is fully worded and understood by the protagonist.
In the mean time I am gonna hold you to this point.

I never suggested it was for God's protection. God gets annoyed with all sorts of things. We don't swat flies for PROTECTION... we swat flies because they annoy us. Like when the flies worship a different god... But you still haven't responded to the notion that a perfect God would be free of temptation...
'Annoyed' is such a nothing kinda word.. He gets angry, sure. But He is slow to anger and full of mercy.
You need to start putting your cards on the table at once, rather than I having to guess what you are driving at.
God has only been tempted when He was on earth in His human form. As a man He had all the same desires and needs that you and I have.

We have to view everything God did after this as pure MERCY.
Oh, yes... killing babies is SOOOOO merciful. What the hell are you smoking?
This is just garden variety self-righteousness on your part- ' God (or the Christian notion of Him) is bad and I can see this so I am good.' No you aint. You're a sinner.
Again you're starting in the middle of the story, after Adam brought (CHOSE) death and sin into the world.
Next time you rent a DVD I want you to go straight to the 'chapters menu' and begin watching the film from say chapter 7 or 8.. THEN I want you start moaning about this crazy story line where people talk about stuff as if you already know what's going on! stOOOOPID film already!

So... despite the fact that God KNEW Adam and Eve would sin, he still chooses to punish future generations even though Deuteronomy 24:16 states "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Pray tell, if original sin was caused by ADAM AND EVE, what are the sins of the baby that they deserve God's "mercy" ???
You say 'God knew Adam would sin' but you must remember that God exists in eternity, not in time. So God sees all times at the same time. At the same time He saw Adam sin He saw me typing this post.
But to answer your question in the spirit that it was asked..
God is limited. By His own nature. That means there is a bottom line reality that cannot be changed.. even by God.
When man chose to disobey God he chose to break from Him. God cannot manipulate human beings. He must allow them to be free, to choose. Adam became sinful by nature because he no longer had the spirit of God within him. We always beget what we are.. therefore Adam begot sinful humans. Jesus Christ is the 'Only begotten Son of God' hence He IS God.
*imagine*
You commit an horrendous crime.
The judge says 'you are free to go'. He always says that. To everyone.
OR..
You commit an horrendous crime. Every person, ever, who has been tried for this crime has suffered terrible consequences.
The judge says " you are free to go."
Which example reveals what mercy really is?

The second of course, but that doesn't address in any way the fact that the inconsistencies in God's behavior and laws undermines Christian morality. Take two?
Which inconsistencies? You cannot keep slandering God without showing examples.
The Law is 'negative'.. (you must not do this etc) the Spirit is positive.. We are under a new covenant.

You need to take a basic class in logic. Negative laws start "Thou shalt not." Positive laws start "Thou shall." For example, the law concerning honoring thy father and mother is a positive law. If it were a negative law, it would be OK to show ambivalence to them. But God's law states that we need to actively honor them. The law is both negative and positive.
I'll concede there are some positive Laws but mostly they are 'Thou shall NOT'.
Note what a big point you make over this trifle! You make yourself appear shrill and desparate when you labour a point like this.
The law only applies to sinners!

If this were true, then prohibitions on murder wouldn't apply if I'd not murdered anyone. Then my first murder would be sin-free, as there was no law against it before. And here comes the crap about how we are all born sinners... but if that's so, why make the distinction???
You have murdered people. Every time you hate someone (me?) you murder them. Your nature is sinful. And you choose to sin as well.
I make the distinction because ANYONE who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour is under a new covenant. A convenant of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

So when I express my girlfriend and I express our love for each other and take joy in premarital sex, there is no law against that?? And why on earth is one of the fruits of the spirit LONG SUFFERING ??
There certainly is a law against that. But if you followed Christ you would of course wish to obey His Words so you wouldn't need the law.
The reason I no longer murder people like you (in my heart) is because I am commanded to love you.. This requires LONGSUFFERING. It is probably the most important elemant of the Holy Spirit.
You do what you have to do. Troll.
All the more reason I should enlighten people to your true calling.

Oh no - he's calling me names. Boo-frickity-hoo. When confronted with arguments he doesn't understand or can't refute, DAT acts like a 3rd grader. Lovely.
I'm calling a spade a spade. But only to let you know I never respond to threats.

Actually, it's funny how religious debates on this site get vote-bombed AGAINST atheists, yet I still managed to best your puny religious "arguments." So the challenge remains. If God is for you, who can be against?
The Christian walk is really about losing not winning so it's not something I worry about or even aspire to.
But I'll accept any debate challenge that is fully worded and understood by the protagonist.

You can't define a set in terms of the contrapositive. That's like defining dog by saying "If it's not a dog, it's a cat. If it's not a cat, it's a dog." When there are other options, the statement is false. The fact that there are people that just don't care about god one way or the other (Hindus anyone?), indicates that the pair is false and contradictory to reality.
But YOU care about God 'one way or the other' don't you? I else why would you invest so much time and energy into these discussions?
That people are distracted by the 'cares of this world' is hardly surprisng is it?
We all have a diobolical enemy who knows exactly how we work.
If I were trapped in a jungle and knew I was in a tigers territory and it was me or him, who would win?
Me. Because I know how cats/mammals work. I know they are a slave to their stomachs. So I would dig a pit and tempt him with food.
This is how satan sees us. As hopeless slaves to our own desires. This why nothing short of Gods Word can save us from him.

Sins of the father, sins of the son, etc... all over again. Faith and reason are mutually incompatible. The quote stands.
Along with Freud and Darwin he is one of the fathers of our age.


Galatians 4:16 (KJV)
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?


Apparently in DAT's mind.

That scripture refers to Paul remonstrating a Church of his. Hardly appropiate from a lapsed Catholic to a Fundamentalist Born again Christian is it?

Job 20:5 (New In
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
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5/13/2009 11:07:13 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/13/2009 5:18:10 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/12/2009 6:38:59 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

I accept any debate that is fully worded and understood by the protagonist.
In the mean time I am gonna hold you to this point.

Hold me to WHAT point - I'm still waiting to hear how the logic and doctrines of Christianity are sound...

'Annoyed' is such a nothing kinda word.. He gets angry, sure. But He is slow to anger and full of mercy.

I suppose after slowly building up your anger it causes you to do things like kill babies in your divine mercy...

You need to start putting your cards on the table at once, rather than I having to guess what you are driving at.
God has only been tempted when He was on earth in His human form. As a man He had all the same desires and needs that you and I have.

It's pretty simple. The prospect of temptation is incoherent with perfection. And if God (as Jesus) had the same desires as us... Did Jesus have lustful thoughts? Did he masturbate? Did he covet his neighbor's goods? Was he jealous?

This is just garden variety self-righteousness on your part- ' God (or the Christian notion of Him) is bad and I can see this so I am good.' No you aint. You're a sinner.

I never said I was "good." Just that God was bad. My judgment of God requires no self-righteousness.

Again you're starting in the middle of the story, after Adam brought (CHOSE) death and sin into the world.

How so? If ADAM was the one that sinned, punishing babies whose only sin is "original sin" is completely inconsistent with Deuteronomy... which happens to contradict several OTHER parts of the bible on this point.

You say 'God knew Adam would sin' but you must remember that God exists in eternity, not in time. So God sees all times at the same time. At the same time He saw Adam sin He saw me typing this post.

But of course, being God, he could easily sort it out. And where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about God seeing all times at the same time?

But to answer your question in the spirit that it was asked..
God is limited. By His own nature. That means there is a bottom line reality that cannot be changed.. even by God.

So you admit he's not omnipotent...

When man chose to disobey God he chose to break from Him. God cannot manipulate human beings.

False - 2 The 2:11 - "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

He must allow them to be free, to choose. Adam became sinful by nature because he no longer had the spirit of God within him. We always beget what we are.. therefore Adam begot sinful humans. Jesus Christ is the 'Only begotten Son of God' hence He IS God.

You miss the point... was there some part of "neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" you didn't understand???

Which inconsistencies? You cannot keep slandering God without showing examples.

Hello? Slow to anger, rich in kindness, yet kills babies left and right throughout the OT. Tells humans not to murder, yet does so himself. Tells humans not to lie, yet does so himself...

I'll concede there are some positive Laws but mostly they are 'Thou shall NOT'.
Note what a big point you make over this trifle! You make yourself appear shrill and desparate when you labour a point like this.

No - I make you appear inconsistent and lacking in knowledge of the point you attempt to argue.

You have murdered people. Every time you hate someone (me?) you murder them. Your nature is sinful. And you choose to sin as well.

Hate = Murder?? You need a dictionary. Thou shalt not murder vs. Thou shalt not hate... hmmm....

I make the distinction because ANYONE who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour is under a new covenant. A convenant of the Spirit.

Oh - so we can just forget about all the baby killing I guess... it's OK now... covenant or convenient? Hmm?

There certainly is a law against that. But if you followed Christ you would of course wish to obey His Words so you wouldn't need the law.

But then again, I don't follow Christ and am not bound by the law. If I live in the US, why should I abide by British law (aside from the jokes about illegal secession)??

The reason I no longer murder people like you (in my heart) is because I am commanded to love you.. This requires LONGSUFFERING. It is probably the most important elemant of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure that's exactly what it meant... when you love some people, it causes you to suffer... riiight. that's a very strange notion of "love."

I'm calling a spade a spade. But only to let you know I never respond to threats.

And you STILL have yet to refute my argument...

The Christian walk is really about losing not winning so it's not something I worry about or even aspire to.

When you set your expectations as low as Christianity's, you're bound to feel pleased about yourself.

But I'll accept any debate challenge that is fully worded and understood by the protagonist.

Ooooh... this is tempting...

But YOU care about God 'one way or the other' don't you? I else why would you invest so much time and energy into these discussions?

Because religion is poisonous, and the evangelical right is about to destroy America. The world will be a scary, scary place when the people holding the reins of the most powerful country in the world are convinced that the other 2/3 of the world is going to hell and should be converted or die.

That people are distracted by the 'cares of this world' is hardly surprisng is it?
We all have a diobolical enemy who knows exactly how we work.

God?

If I were trapped in a jungle and knew I was in a tigers territory and it was me or him, who would win?
Me. Because I know how cats/mammals work. I know they are a slave to their stomachs. So I would dig a pit and tempt him with food.
This is how satan sees us. As hopeless slaves to our own desires. This why nothing short of Gods Word can save us from him.

Lol... and while you were digging, you would be eaten.

Along with Freud and Darwin he is one of the fathers of our age.

Who are you talking about? Nietzsche? I dunno what you're thinking, but this age is pretty darn good.

That scripture refers to Paul remonstrating a Church of hi...

Dunno what the rest of this was, but it still makes the point... Are we enemies because we both believe we have truth?
DATCMOTO
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5/13/2009 3:04:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/13/2009 11:07:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

Hold me to WHAT point - I'm still waiting to hear how the logic and doctrines of Christianity are sound...
Well how about the debate challenge for a start?

I suppose after slowly building up your anger it causes you to do things like kill babies in your divine mercy...
No WE kill babies. By the millions. We kill INNOCENT babies. (we are born into sin remember?) You are talking about what the sinful and spiritually dead do in a war. Quite different.

It's pretty simple. The prospect of temptation is incoherent with perfection. And if God (as Jesus) had the same desires as us... Did Jesus have lustful thoughts? Did he masturbate? Did he covet his neighbor's goods? Was he jealous?
This is an important point. If the thought "that woman in front of me at the check out is hot stuff and man would she be good fun" entered my mind and I at once dismissed it (it takes a little practice) then I have not sinned. BUT if I roll the thought around my mind and savour it and enjoy it then I have sinned. Futhermore it is the first step to acting on that sin. Similar thoughts (They come from satan until we decide to own them) entered Christs mind. He never allowed Himself to enjoy them. Ever.
I never said I was "good." Just that God was bad. My judgment of God requires no self-righteousness.
It is how you 'tell yourself' you are good. It's ok, you don't have to admit it to me.. just admit it to yourself.


How so? If ADAM was the one that sinned, punishing babies whose only sin is "original sin" is completely inconsistent with Deuteronomy... which happens to contradict several OTHER parts of the bible on this point.
Then get all your scriptures side by side and point out your contradictions.
And I'll gladly show you where you've gone wrong.


But of course, being God, he could easily sort it out. And where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about God seeing all times at the same time?
We are allowed to work out some things for ourselves you know! Have you never considered eternity? Read some Phillip K Dick or better still C.S Lewis.

So you admit he's not omnipotent...
Only in the sense that He cannot lie or do evil. I'd rather say that the term 'omnipotent' is actually meaningless.
When man chose to disobey God he chose to break from Him. God cannot manipulate human beings.

False - 2 The 2:11 - "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
This simply means He removes Himself.. a little more. There is actually nothing worse God can do to us. This is His wrath. This is what Hell is. The absence of God.

You miss the point... was there some part of "neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" you didn't understand???
You are still comparing Gods commands ,to a sinful and fallen humanity, with the mechanics of reality itself. How can children be born unsinful (connected to God) when they come from sinful parents that God CANNOT be connected to spritually.
Which inconsistencies? You cannot keep slandering God without showing examples.

Hello? Slow to anger, rich in kindness, yet kills babies left and right throughout the OT. Tells humans not to murder, yet does so himself. Tells humans not to lie, yet does so himself...
Again, do your homework. Put your scripture side by side or better still challenge me to a debate on this subject.
I'll concede there are some positive Laws but mostly they are 'Thou shall NOT'.
Note what a big point you make over this trifle! You make yourself appear shrill and desparate when you labour a point like this.

No - I make you appear inconsistent and lacking in knowledge of the point you attempt to argue.
How will I live with myself? (*waits for JCMT to take this sarcasm literally*)
You have murdered people. Every time you hate someone (me?) you murder them. Your nature is sinful. And you choose to sin as well.

Hate = Murder?? You need a dictionary. Thou shalt not murder vs. Thou shalt not hate... hmmm....
And you need a Bible. Or SomeOne to turn the Light on for you.

Matthew 5:21-22 (New King James Version)

Murder Begins in the Heart

21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[b] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.


And..

1 John 3:15 (New King James Version)
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.



I make the distinction because ANYONE who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour is under a new covenant. A convenant of the Spirit.

Oh - so we can just forget about all the baby killing I guess... it's OK now... covenant or convenient? Hmm?
Babykillingbabykilling=No argument.

There certainly is a law against that. But if you followed Christ you would of course wish to obey His Words so you wouldn't need the law.

But then again, I don't follow Christ and am not bound by the law. If I live in the US, why should I abide by British law (aside from the jokes about illegal secession)??
Sure, but you have a problem that's not going away. You are dying. God cannot have you in His presence in your present state.
The reason I no longer murder people like you (in my heart) is because I am commanded to love you.. This requires LONGSUFFERING. It is probably the most important elemant of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure that's exactly what it meant... when you love some people, it causes you to suffer... riiight. that's a very strange notion of "love."
Not at all. Ask any parent if they suffer for there childs sake. The sleepless nights, early mornings etc.
I'm calling a spade a spade. But only to let you know I never respond to threats.

And you STILL have yet to refute my argument..
I've utterly destroyed everything you've posted.

The Christian walk is really about losing not winning so it's not something I worry about or even aspire to.

When you set your expectations as low as Christianity's, you're bound to feel pleased about yourself.
'mmm'
But I'll accept any debate challenge that is fully worded and understood by the protagonist.

Ooooh... this is tempting...

But YOU care about God 'one way or the other' don't you? I else why would you invest so much time and energy into these discussions?

Because religion is poisonous, and the evangelical right is about to destroy America. The world will be a scary, scary place when the people holding the reins of the most powerful country in the world are convinced that the other 2/3 of the world is going to hell and should be converted or die.
Oh.. Your gonna save the world. right.
That people are distracted by the 'cares of this world' is hardly surprisng is it?
We all have a diobolical enemy who knows exactly how we work.

God?
Your god, yes.

This is how satan sees us. As hopeless slaves to our own desires. This why nothing short of Gods Word can save us from him.

Lol... and while you were digging, you would be eaten.
maybe. maybe not.
Along with Freud and Darwin he is one of the fathers of our age.

Who are you talking about? Nietzsche? I dunno what you're thinking, but this age is pretty darn good.
Sure. (Abortion, Euphanasia, Homosexuality, pornography, Drugs etc etc) Great age.

"He who marries the Spirit of the Age will soon be a widower. " WR Inge.
The Cross.. the Cross.