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God & Free will defense of evil/suffering

Illegalcombatant
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11/11/2011 9:48:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Free will is used alot to defend against much evil and suffering when the question is asked how could God allow such and such.

Now there are some problems that I had not thought about before such as.........

Take for example child rape. Now some one will defend God inaction on the grounds of, look its horrible, God does not in any way approve of it, never the less God allows it because of free will.

But notice that free will is only been applied to the rapist, there is another person in this free will discussion we forget about and that's the child been raped.

Now here is the thing, clearly the child doesn't want to get raped, so what about the free will of the child ? God grants the free will decision of the rapist to rape, but doesn't grant the child there free will decision not to be raped.

Clearly we have a situation where only one person can get what they want here, either the rapist gets to rape or the child doesn't get raped. So God has a decision to make as the all powerful being, he either grants the will of the rapist or grants the will of the child not to be raped.

Gods decision...........yeah think I better let the rapist rape. WTF ?

Ummmmmm okey God, that's one way to go, but may I suggest another choice ? The choice to honor the free will decision of the child not to be raped ? But that is just crazy talk right ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
TeenageApologist
Posts: 54
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11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/11/2011 9:48:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Free will is used alot to defend against much evil and suffering when the question is asked how could God allow such and such.

Now there are some problems that I had not thought about before such as.........

Take for example child rape. Now some one will defend God inaction on the grounds of, look its horrible, God does not in any way approve of it, never the less God allows it because of free will.

But notice that free will is only been applied to the rapist, there is another person in this free will discussion we forget about and that's the child been raped.

Now here is the thing, clearly the child doesn't want to get raped, so what about the free will of the child ? God grants the free will decision of the rapist to rape, but doesn't grant the child there free will decision not to be raped.

Clearly we have a situation where only one person can get what they want here, either the rapist gets to rape or the child doesn't get raped. So God has a decision to make as the all powerful being, he either grants the will of the rapist or grants the will of the child not to be raped.

Gods decision...........yeah think I better let the rapist rape. WTF ?

Ummmmmm okey God, that's one way to go, but may I suggest another choice ? The choice to honor the free will decision of the child not to be raped ? But that is just crazy talk right ?

Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
CosmicAlfonzo
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11/11/2011 10:28:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God very clearly "approves" of rape, as it happens.

You might not like it, and most may not like it, but that is the way it is. Rape doesn't break God's law. Rape only breaks man's law.

Freewill is an illusion. There is no such thing.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
TeenageApologist
Posts: 54
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11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
TeenageApologist
Posts: 54
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11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/12/2011 1:02:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.

Free will debunked in the next sentence: There is absolutely no reason god could not stop child rape and allow me the choose of where to vacation next summer, sorry free will at best is limited and god could still limit it more.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/12/2011 1:04:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 1:02:50 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.


Free will debunked in the next sentence: There is absolutely no reason god could not stop child rape and allow me the choose of where to vacation next summer, sorry free will at best is limited and god could still limit it more.

beating the dead horse is fun
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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11/12/2011 1:11:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.

"If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will."

No it wouldn't cripple free will, you can have plenty of free will while not allowing baby rape.

"God simply allowing somethingis not an action,"

I was quite clear, God actually has to choose to allow the child to be raped, God is all powerful, God doesn't simply allow, he has to choose to you allow, Gods "choice" is an action by God.

"Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear."

If outward events does not matter for free will, then there is no need to allow the "outward event" of the child been raped. Congrats you just argued against your own free will defense.

God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right?

God allowing the rape would cripple the child's free will not to be raped, right ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/12/2011 6:20:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Suffering is not evil. Justification implies wrong, no good needs justification. If you do not believe in God, there is no evil.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/12/2011 8:08:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/11/2011 9:48:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Free will is used alot to defend against much evil and suffering when the question is asked how could God allow such and such.

Now there are some problems that I had not thought about before such as.........

Take for example child rape. Now some one will defend God inaction on the grounds of, look its horrible, God does not in any way approve of it, never the less God allows it because of free will.

But notice that free will is only been applied to the rapist, there is another person in this free will discussion we forget about and that's the child been raped.

Now here is the thing, clearly the child doesn't want to get raped, so what about the free will of the child ? God grants the free will decision of the rapist to rape, but doesn't grant the child there free will decision not to be raped.

Clearly we have a situation where only one person can get what they want here, either the rapist gets to rape or the child doesn't get raped. So God has a decision to make as the all powerful being, he either grants the will of the rapist or grants the will of the child not to be raped.

Gods decision...........yeah think I better let the rapist rape. WTF ?

Ummmmmm okey God, that's one way to go, but may I suggest another choice ? The choice to honor the free will decision of the child not to be raped ? But that is just crazy talk right ?

It goes deeper. First, the Free Will excuse to the PoE is predicated on the assumption that (Free Will + Evil) > (No Free Will + No Evil). That is, there is a net good to allowing free will and evil than simply disallowing or infringing upon free will. I've never seen any justification for this, it is an assumption based upon the notion that all God does is good, therefore, no matter how evil the world is, it's the best possible world.

Second, our Free Will is limited, or "crippled" as one may say. These theists who are essentially claiming to know the mind of God are simply wrong when they claim that God has some sort of reverence for Free Will. He doesn't. Our Free Will is limited in several ways:

1. I am not Free do do the physically impossible.
2. There are things so repugnant to me I'll never choose to do them. So while technically Free, I am practically not.
3. I can only Freely choose actions I am aware of. Again, technically free, practically not.

The question then, why isn't evil placed into one of these categories? In order for me to choose to do evil it must: 1) be physically possible for me to choose evil; 2) acceptable enough for me to desire to choose evil; and 3) be known to me how to choose and do evil.

So why not make evil things that which are unknown, completely undesirable, or physically impossible? Whatever reverence God has regarding Free Will he clearly doesn't mind there being things I can't or won't do, so why not make evil one of those things?
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/12/2011 8:13:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://atheistbebil.blogspot.com...

my blog about poe and free will
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.

These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/12/2011 12:12:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

I am amazed at the lack of intelligence on your part, either evil is a necessary result of free will or it is not. In the christian worldview it cannot be, hence free will falls as an excuse for evil, end of story. Nothing more to talk about, the song ended stop dancing.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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11/12/2011 12:20:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 6:20:27 AM, logicrules wrote:
Suffering is not evil. Justification implies wrong, no good needs justification. If you do not believe in God, there is no evil.:

Correction; no objective evil.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/12/2011 12:35:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 12:12:21 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

I am amazed at the lack of intelligence on your part, either evil is a necessary result of free will or it is not. In the christian worldview it cannot be, hence free will falls as an excuse for evil, end of story. Nothing more to talk about, the song ended stop dancing.

I can see you have won God's lottery. Unless you want to argue if you became an intellectual savant by chance or design?

God's existence is obviously compatible with Free Will. Free Will necessitates the choice of the absence of good, which we call Evil.

How does this fail in the Christian worldview?
Why are you attempting to tell Christians what is or is not in their worldview?
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/12/2011 12:38:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 12:35:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:12:21 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

I am amazed at the lack of intelligence on your part, either evil is a necessary result of free will or it is not. In the christian worldview it cannot be, hence free will falls as an excuse for evil, end of story. Nothing more to talk about, the song ended stop dancing.

I can see you have won God's lottery. Unless you want to argue if you became an intellectual savant by chance or design?

God's existence is obviously compatible with Free Will. Free Will necessitates the choice of the absence of good, which we call Evil.

How does this fail in the Christian worldview?
Why are you attempting to tell Christians what is or is not in their worldview?

If heaven is perfect and does not have evil then we have no reason for evil here. If there is free will in heaven then by default evil is not necessary for free will. If heaven does not have free will then free will is not the best decision as there is a perfect place without it. It is case closed, you are just too ignorant to follow the thoughts to their rational conclusion.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/12/2011 1:01:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

That theology is not accepted by most theologians. It is pure silliness.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/12/2011 1:11:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 12:38:36 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:35:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:12:21 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

I am amazed at the lack of intelligence on your part, either evil is a necessary result of free will or it is not. In the christian worldview it cannot be, hence free will falls as an excuse for evil, end of story. Nothing more to talk about, the song ended stop dancing.

I can see you have won God's lottery. Unless you want to argue if you became an intellectual savant by chance or design?

God's existence is obviously compatible with Free Will. Free Will necessitates the choice of the absence of good, which we call Evil.

How does this fail in the Christian worldview?
Why are you attempting to tell Christians what is or is not in their worldview?

If heaven is perfect and does not have evil then we have no reason for evil here. If there is free will in heaven then by default evil is not necessary for free will. If heaven does not have free will then free will is not the best decision as there is a perfect place without it. It is case closed, you are just too ignorant to follow the thoughts to their rational conclusion.

According to Christian Doctrine, Heaven did have free Will and evil (the absence of good) did exist there and was fully open to evil existing in Heaven.

That is where Satan started and performed his act of Evil. That is where one third of the Angels choose their "evil".

You are creating strawmen from your personal lack of understanding.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/12/2011 1:13:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 1:11:12 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:38:36 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:35:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:12:21 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

I am amazed at the lack of intelligence on your part, either evil is a necessary result of free will or it is not. In the christian worldview it cannot be, hence free will falls as an excuse for evil, end of story. Nothing more to talk about, the song ended stop dancing.

I can see you have won God's lottery. Unless you want to argue if you became an intellectual savant by chance or design?

God's existence is obviously compatible with Free Will. Free Will necessitates the choice of the absence of good, which we call Evil.

How does this fail in the Christian worldview?
Why are you attempting to tell Christians what is or is not in their worldview?

If heaven is perfect and does not have evil then we have no reason for evil here. If there is free will in heaven then by default evil is not necessary for free will. If heaven does not have free will then free will is not the best decision as there is a perfect place without it. It is case closed, you are just too ignorant to follow the thoughts to their rational conclusion.

According to Christian Doctrine, Heaven did have free Will and evil (the absence of good) did exist there and was fully open to evil existing in Heaven.

That is where Satan started and performed his act of Evil. That is where one third of the Angels choose their "evil".

You are creating strawmen from your personal lack of understanding.

No, heaven is suppose to be perfect with no evil you are just being an intellectually dishonest b!tch. If you don't care to be honest get off a debate site.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/12/2011 1:57:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 1:13:15 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 1:11:12 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:38:36 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:35:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:12:21 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 10:14:30 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I am always amazed at the lack of comprehensive background information when discussing the problem of evil.
I do not mind a person who has a question but the athiests that pose God to "have" this problem are progenitors of drivel.


These are the variables in play.
Angelic Free Will -
Human Free Will -
Satan as god of this world -
God is at war with Satan -
God's 3 types of Will -
- Directive Will
- Permissive Will
- Overruling Will

Here is a link for a general outline: http://www.divineviewpoint.com...

I am amazed at the lack of intelligence on your part, either evil is a necessary result of free will or it is not. In the christian worldview it cannot be, hence free will falls as an excuse for evil, end of story. Nothing more to talk about, the song ended stop dancing.

I can see you have won God's lottery. Unless you want to argue if you became an intellectual savant by chance or design?

God's existence is obviously compatible with Free Will. Free Will necessitates the choice of the absence of good, which we call Evil.

How does this fail in the Christian worldview?
Why are you attempting to tell Christians what is or is not in their worldview?

If heaven is perfect and does not have evil then we have no reason for evil here. If there is free will in heaven then by default evil is not necessary for free will. If heaven does not have free will then free will is not the best decision as there is a perfect place without it. It is case closed, you are just too ignorant to follow the thoughts to their rational conclusion.

According to Christian Doctrine, Heaven did have free Will and evil (the absence of good) did exist there and was fully open to evil existing in Heaven.

That is where Satan started and performed his act of Evil. That is where one third of the Angels choose their "evil".

You are creating strawmen from your personal lack of understanding.


No, heaven is suppose to be perfect with no evil you are just being an intellectually dishonest b!tch. If you don't care to be honest get off a debate site.

I hold a BA in Th from a Christian Seminary.
I am a Soldier in the Christian Denomination of the Salvation Army.
I have studied Christian Theology for over a decade.
I have been a Christian Minister and Chaplain for years.

I would encourage you to rethink your statement about intellectual honesty.

Clearly all Christian theological perspectives do not hold the current "Heaven" as devoid of Evil.

Even Satan daily presents himself in Heaven to pester God.

Job Chapter 1:
6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."

Please recheck your strawman.

This would explain why Christians do not know what your complaint is when you initially bring it up.

Your logical conclusion only matters to a strawman.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/12/2011 2:08:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Gileandos would rather have a back and forth between Izbo than me. He admits to ignoring me, but engages with Izbo.

I'm not easy to debate with, I understand. Keep playing with the Jobroni.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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11/12/2011 2:25:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Surely the fact that free-will doesn't account for all or even most of the suffering in the world makes the point nothing more than an interesting aside? In my own PoE, I try to to use examples which avoid free-will (e.g. Rowe's fawn) altogether. Given this, it seems to me that even if free-will exists, and if it is somehow logically necessary for adequately compensating goods, unless the theist claims that this alone can account for all evil, it's best to use scenarios which avoid the FWD altogether.

As for evil being a privation of good, again, it is tangential, even if it were true, assuming all else being equal, that God would want to prevent horrendous suffering, as this is much harder to defend as an absence of something.

For what it's worth, I don't really think the FWD is really plausible where typically employed, nor that evil is a privation, but I usually just grant it because even conceding this, the PoE is still ably used and defended, I think.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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11/12/2011 2:50:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 2:25:07 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Surely the fact that free-will doesn't account for all or even most of the suffering in the world makes the point nothing more than an interesting aside? In my own PoE, I try to to use examples which avoid free-will (e.g. Rowe's fawn) altogether. Given this, it seems to me that even if free-will exists, and if it is somehow logically necessary for adequately compensating goods, unless the theist claims that this alone can account for all evil, it's best to use scenarios which avoid the FWD altogether.


As I said from the start, I was bringing up some things I had not considered before.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/12/2011 3:52:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 2:08:23 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Gileandos would rather have a back and forth between Izbo than me. He admits to ignoring me, but engages with Izbo.

I'm not easy to debate with, I understand. Keep playing with the Jobroni.

If you had not noticed I pick and choose my interactions with the both of you. I rarely respond or engage Izbo either.

This claim was just so blithe I had to point out that he knows nothing of theology and would be better to silence his logical and necessary conclusions from ineptitude.

I would point out I have agreed with you in other forums in that chance does not exist and only physical determinism is a reality.
TeenageApologist
Posts: 54
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11/12/2011 4:26:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 1:11:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.

"If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will."

No it wouldn't cripple free will, you can have plenty of free will while not allowing baby rape.

"God simply allowing somethingis not an action,"

I was quite clear, God actually has to choose to allow the child to be raped, God is all powerful, God doesn't simply allow, he has to choose to you allow, Gods "choice" is an action by God.

"Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear."

If outward events does not matter for free will, then there is no need to allow the "outward event" of the child been raped. Congrats you just argued against your own free will defense.

God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right?

God allowing the rape would cripple the child's free will not to be raped, right ?

God allows complete free will, not just some free will. I did not argue against my free will defense, the child being raped is outward for the child but stems from the rapists inward will so god stopping an outward event for the child would thus be stopping the rapists free will. So it has nothing to do with the childs free will but it does the rapists free will.
TeenageApologist
Posts: 54
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11/12/2011 4:27:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 1:02:50 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.


Free will debunked in the next sentence: There is absolutely no reason god could not stop child rape and allow me the choose of where to vacation next summer, sorry free will at best is limited and god could still limit it more.

It is not debunked, stopping the childs rape stops the rapists free will. Free will is not limited.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/12/2011 4:32:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 4:27:50 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 1:02:50 AM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.


Free will debunked in the next sentence: There is absolutely no reason god could not stop child rape and allow me the choose of where to vacation next summer, sorry free will at best is limited and god could still limit it more.

It is not debunked, stopping the childs rape stops the rapists free will. Free will is not limited.

You will come to discover to engage certain members of this forum will be spinning your wheels.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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11/12/2011 4:44:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/12/2011 4:26:07 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 1:11:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:44:30 AM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/12/2011 12:13:13 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 11:07:11 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:17:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/11/2011 10:12:54 PM, TeenageApologist wrote:
Well, free will means that you get to control your choices in life, not the choice of what happens to you in your life. If your assertion was true, free will would be a paradox. It is not a paradox, I reinterate it is simply the free will to choose your choices not to choose outward events.

How does my assertion lead to a paradox ? and, what is the assertion you are talking about that leads to a paradox ?

Because you are saying that stopping the rapist's free will in its tracks would be the child's free will, but that is contradictory; hence the paradox. You have a misconception of what free will is. I already explained that I do believe.

not exactly, I am saying the childs will is to NOT be raped. Your also forgot about my comment about how the rapist can only rape the child if God allows it. In other words if God doesn't allow it, it won't happen.

This is a choice that an all powerful being has to make, and like I said its one or the other, some one isn't going to get what they want, why not prefer the childs will not to be raped over the rapists choice to rape the child.

You do understand that right ? If your postulating an all powerful God, it just doesn't happen cause God takes a nap, it happen cause God allows it, God has to CHOOSE to allow it.

But you see a God that can choose to allow the child to be raped can also choose for the child not to be raped.

And that's why I said God has a choice to make, its either child gets raped or child doesn't get raped and God chooses.......................think ill let the child get raped.

If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will. I agree that God allows evil. Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear. I never argued that God didn't choose to allow it did I? God simply allowing somethingis not an action, but God disallowing something is. God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right? It is not a matter of God doing this or that, it is a matter of God stepping in or not. Why God doesn't step in brings us to the Problem of Evil, which does not disprove God. This world is only temporary, however, there will one day be no sin.

"If God didn't allow it it would cripple free will."

No it wouldn't cripple free will, you can have plenty of free will while not allowing baby rape.

"God simply allowing somethingis not an action,"

I was quite clear, God actually has to choose to allow the child to be raped, God is all powerful, God doesn't simply allow, he has to choose to you allow, Gods "choice" is an action by God.

"Free will is about choices concerning choices not outward events that logic has escaped you and I was clear."

If outward events does not matter for free will, then there is no need to allow the "outward event" of the child been raped. Congrats you just argued against your own free will defense.

God disallowing the rape would cripple the rapists free will, right?

God allowing the rape would cripple the child's free will not to be raped, right ?

God allows complete free will, not just some free will. I did not argue against my free will defense, the child being raped is outward for the child but stems from the rapists inward will so god stopping an outward event for the child would thus be stopping the rapists free will. So it has nothing to do with the childs free will but it does the rapists free will.

That's because your only looking at it from the rapists point of view when it comes to free will and outwards events, I am looking at both.

Well I am sorry you can so easily dismiss the childs free will not be raped.

I think I will consider how people like you are saying the rapist has to be given the choice to choose rape and has to have this outward event of rape for free will but the child doesn't get such consideration.

Rapist chooses rape + outward event of rape = free will for rapist
Child chooses not to be raped + outward event of rape still happens = free will for the child

There is a problem here.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12