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Fear and Religion

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/14/2011 6:02:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've come to reason that many who are religious are religious out of fear. Many people stay away from theological discussion because it would uncover the things that don't quite make sense about their beliefs.

I can understand believing in non-interventionist higher powers, but once one asserts that God can change the course of life, he, by necessity, lays that claim to the laws of the our universe. It becomes a testable hypothesis, the likes of which has failed time and time again.

I feel like if there truly was no fear in religion, no intimidation factor, no mode of oppression, suppression of inquisition, and pure freedom to ALLOW the intellect of which we have been endowed, to FIND what is true in the world,....then much, much more people would abandon Christianity and many other terrorizing religions.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/14/2011 6:20:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:02:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
I've come to reason that many who are religious are religious out of fear. Many people stay away from theological discussion because it would uncover the things that don't quite make sense about their beliefs.

I can understand believing in non-interventionist higher powers, but once one asserts that God can change the course of life, he, by necessity, lays that claim to the laws of the our universe. It becomes a testable hypothesis, the likes of which has failed time and time again.

I feel like if there truly was no fear in religion, no intimidation factor, no mode of oppression, suppression of inquisition, and pure freedom to ALLOW the intellect of which we have been endowed, to FIND what is true in the world,....then much, much more people would abandon Christianity and many other terrorizing religions.

Why have you come to reason that?

Since we are (apparently) speculating about psychological explanations (which you have a strange affinity for I've noticed) for religious belief I'll engage you in one better.

"I believe that this is one manifestation of a fear of religion which has large and often pernicious consequences for modern intellectual life.

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that.

My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about life, including everything about the human mind. Darwin enabled modern secular culture to heave a great collective sigh of relief, by apparently providing a way to eliminate purpose, meaning, and design as fundamental features of the world."

--Thomas Nagel, "The Last Word"

Thus, I've come to reason that the reason many people are non-religious is because of this fear.

I love psychologizing people!
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/14/2011 6:28:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:20:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/14/2011 6:02:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
I've come to reason that many who are religious are religious out of fear. Many people stay away from theological discussion because it would uncover the things that don't quite make sense about their beliefs.

I can understand believing in non-interventionist higher powers, but once one asserts that God can change the course of life, he, by necessity, lays that claim to the laws of the our universe. It becomes a testable hypothesis, the likes of which has failed time and time again.

I feel like if there truly was no fear in religion, no intimidation factor, no mode of oppression, suppression of inquisition, and pure freedom to ALLOW the intellect of which we have been endowed, to FIND what is true in the world,....then much, much more people would abandon Christianity and many other terrorizing religions.

Why have you come to reason that?

Since we are (apparently) speculating about psychological explanations (which you have a strange affinity for I've noticed) for religious belief I'll engage you in one better.

"I believe that this is one manifestation of a fear of religion which has large and often pernicious consequences for modern intellectual life.

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that.

My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about life, including everything about the human mind. Darwin enabled modern secular culture to heave a great collective sigh of relief, by apparently providing a way to eliminate purpose, meaning, and design as fundamental features of the world."

--Thomas Nagel, "The Last Word"

Thus, I've come to reason that the reason many people are non-religious is because of this fear.

I love psychologizing people!

I want to see what you're saying. I want to know why you believe these things, But all I saw in this was a quote of someone's personal assertions and unfounded denial of biology. I didn't realize that drawing up a lengthy and grandiloquent quote constituted an argument. I'll try it sometime.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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11/14/2011 6:31:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:02:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
I've come to reason that many who are religious are religious out of fear. Many people stay away from theological discussion because it would uncover the things that don't quite make sense about their beliefs.

I can understand believing in non-interventionist higher powers, but once one asserts that God can change the course of life, he, by necessity, lays that claim to the laws of the our universe. It becomes a testable hypothesis, the likes of which has failed time and time again.

I feel like if there truly was no fear in religion, no intimidation factor, no mode of oppression, suppression of inquisition, and pure freedom to ALLOW the intellect of which we have been endowed, to FIND what is true in the world,....then much, much more people would abandon Christianity and many other terrorizing religions.

Interesting....Ike, where does this fear come from?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/14/2011 6:34:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No matter which side of the fence you are on, religion can be scary, ya?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/14/2011 6:34:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:31:41 PM, Man-is-good wrote:

Interesting....Ike, where does this fear come from?

Go away, god, you're like a tick.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/14/2011 6:34:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:28:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/14/2011 6:20:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/14/2011 6:02:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
I've come to reason that many who are religious are religious out of fear. Many people stay away from theological discussion because it would uncover the things that don't quite make sense about their beliefs.

I can understand believing in non-interventionist higher powers, but once one asserts that God can change the course of life, he, by necessity, lays that claim to the laws of the our universe. It becomes a testable hypothesis, the likes of which has failed time and time again.

I feel like if there truly was no fear in religion, no intimidation factor, no mode of oppression, suppression of inquisition, and pure freedom to ALLOW the intellect of which we have been endowed, to FIND what is true in the world,....then much, much more people would abandon Christianity and many other terrorizing religions.

Why have you come to reason that?

Since we are (apparently) speculating about psychological explanations (which you have a strange affinity for I've noticed) for religious belief I'll engage you in one better.

"I believe that this is one manifestation of a fear of religion which has large and often pernicious consequences for modern intellectual life.

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that.

My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about life, including everything about the human mind. Darwin enabled modern secular culture to heave a great collective sigh of relief, by apparently providing a way to eliminate purpose, meaning, and design as fundamental features of the world."

--Thomas Nagel, "The Last Word"

Thus, I've come to reason that the reason many people are non-religious is because of this fear.

I love psychologizing people!

I want to see what you're saying. I want to know why you believe these things, But all I saw in this was a quote of someone's personal assertions and unfounded denial of biology. I didn't realize that drawing up a lengthy and grandiloquent quote constituted an argument. I'll try it sometime.

Wait, what? You had an argument in your first post? Where? How were his assertions any different from yours? I want to see your reasoning first.

note: Nagel doesn't deny biology; he denies reductionism in biology.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/14/2011 6:37:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:34:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

Wait, what? You had an argument in your first post? Where? How were his assertions any different from yours? I want to see your reasoning first.

note: Nagel doesn't deny biology; he denies reductionism in biology.

Well, you came here to refute what I said, not to interrogate me, no? Therefore, the first burden if we are to begin engaging in debate, lies with you. The initial post is a matter of opinion, not one that is supposed to convince anyone. As such, it doesn't actually need large elaboration right off the bat. Since you are here to challenge what I wrote, you would be the first to engage in altercation, and also the first requiring more elaboration.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
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11/14/2011 6:45:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:37:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/14/2011 6:34:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

Wait, what? You had an argument in your first post? Where? How were his assertions any different from yours? I want to see your reasoning first.

note: Nagel doesn't deny biology; he denies reductionism in biology.

Well, you came here to refute what I said, not to interrogate me, no? Therefore, the first burden if we are to begin engaging in debate, lies with you. The initial post is a matter of opinion, not one that is supposed to convince anyone. As such, it doesn't actually need large elaboration right off the bat. Since you are here to challenge what I wrote, you would be the first to engage in altercation, and also the first requiring more elaboration.

I'm not interested in refuting something that didn't have support to begin with. Now, if you provide the support, then we'll have something to go on.

I'm still unsure as to why my parallel psychological explanation doesn't work just as well as yours. Why doesn't it? We can start there.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Man-is-good
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11/14/2011 6:46:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 6:34:03 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/14/2011 6:31:41 PM, Man-is-good wrote:

Interesting....Ike, where does this fear come from?

Go away, god, you're like a tick.

Well, so much for a serious conversation...........
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/14/2011 7:53:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is clearly a psychological basis in fear when it comes to both sides of religion.

And keep in mind that I'm not speaking for everyone on either side of the fence. These are assertions, but they do make sense.

People who are against religion tend to fear the effect that religion has on society and politics. Many who are against religion face discrimination from society... There are a lot of people in society who want religion to be a part of government. Those against religion may fear this.

People who follow religion may very well be scared of the same thing, and dishonestly follow a religion for fear of social rejection.. There are also who do not question their beliefs because they have been conditioned to believe that doing so will put them at the other end of God's wrath.

Both sides can be influenced by fear. People fear different things.. Some people are afraid of being wrong, their pride may prevent them from truly examining the possibility that they might be wrong.

This is all human nature, and I realize how that comes off as a platitude.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Bag-Of-Hammers
Posts: 6
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11/15/2011 4:00:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Koran teaches that all Jews are going to burn in Hell, that they are not trustworthy. Muhammad steals from them, commits genocide against them, rapes and pillages them, and treats them like less than 3rd class citizens. And I think the reason the Jews don't stand up for themselves, is because all they have is the OT. Jesus and the NT, paired with the OT is the ultimate weapons against Satan and the the false prophet.
IndiJone
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11/15/2011 8:00:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When you look back on the development of human society, one common feature of early civilization is worship of some god or deity. Early polytheistic and animistic religions called for sacrifice and bearing of gifts to please the gods. Different celebrations and festivals would be held to impress a certain god, such as the sun god or rain god. Often when these early civilizations were in a time of war, the prayed to the god of war for help, and when they needed rain during a long drought the worship a rain god. These gods sometimes had human like qualities, and could be either good to humans, or punish them. The practice of polytheism remained a stable tradition until the emergence of major monotheistic religions which eventually became the majority, opposed to the minority.

Three major monotheist religions are Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam (other less practice religions such as Zoroastrianism still share basic beliefs). Once these religions became embedded into society, they remained relatively stable, perhaps to stable. For a time, because of common similarities, these societies of these religions remained at peace and to an extent, tolerated each other, as demonstrated by Muslims referring to Jews and Christians as "people of the book", the bible. Eventually, however, conflict arose (and still occurs today) between these faiths. Christians believed that Muslims did not comprehend the true meaning of God, while Muslims thought the same. Other sides had fear of each other being wrong, and because they essentially "shared" the same God, feared the punishment that might come upon them.

Because monotheistic belief believes in only ONE god, it is implied that he is supreme and the only god. If one were to turn from or disobey god, no one else had the power to save the "infidel", thus the practice of monotheism in particular cause the "fear" in god. In Mythological stories of Pagan Greek religion, one "mortal" my disobey the will of one deity and cause the god to be angry with him, but he has the ability to turn to another deity and ask for help. This is often apparent in the tale of Odysseus in the story of the Odyssey. To cope with this issue, monotheist religions make the claim that God is perfect and is never wrong. Because God is perfect and never flawed, if you do something agents his will, there is nothing you can do to change it. If you disobey the Word of God, and you have a vision, and you hear God tell you "you will burn in hell for disobeying the word", you most likely will be afraid, of God. This is what I find flawed of Islam, and monotheistic faiths in general, because, according to the bible, Jesus is the only human (fully human and fully God) to not have sin. What atheism and atheistic religions (such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, etc.) provide is a sense of security that deals with imperfections and "sin" differently than the punishment of monotheism.
thett3
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11/15/2011 8:28:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Not I. The idea of God scares me, and I don't want it to be true. I just know that it is.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right