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Hypothetical Situation(s)

TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 3:30:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Imagine you are driving down a narrow highway at night, the clouds are covering the stars and moon, and you are, perhaps, driving faster than is safe under the current conditions.

As you drive along, you are half-paying attention to the road, and half chatting with a friend in the car. You are travelling around a blind curve, and inexplicably you slam on your brakes. As the car screeches to a halt, you think to yourself 'why am I doing this?'. It is only when the car come to a complete stop that you are able to see the 6 elk that are crossing the road.

In this situation, there is no way you could have seen the elk before you started stopping. They were out of line of sight, blocked by the hillside.

How would you explain this situation if it happened to you? How would you explain it if it happened, say, half a dozen times?

I don't care if you are agnostic, atheist, theist, or anything else... I'm just curious as to what your opinion would be about the situation.
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).
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Illegalcombatant
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11/22/2011 4:21:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Or aliens, aliens never get any credit.................bunch of ingrates.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
tvellalott
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11/22/2011 4:25:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Have you ever gone to ring someone on the phone and had the phone ring as you reach for it?
Occum's razor would suggest your brain realised you were going to fast around the corner, braked and fortunately you didn't hit some deer.
You don't need supernatural means to explain that. If you made the sky rain frogs, I'd be more impressed.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/22/2011 8:14:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Your scenario presumes that all information received by the brain and responded to is done so in a conscious manner. Do you actually believe this to be true?

The most likely explanation is that you either weren't consciously aware of seeing the elk or you don't remember consciously seeing the elk.

Furthermore, we know, for a fact, that the brain has subconscious visual capabilities:

http://www.nytimes.com...

So, when mundane explanations abound, I see no need to stick my hand in the grab bag of the paranormal.
drafterman
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11/22/2011 8:15:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 4:25:40 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Have you ever gone to ring someone on the phone and had the phone ring as you reach for it?
Occum's razor would suggest your brain realised you were going to fast around the corner, braked and fortunately you didn't hit some deer.

Bullsh1t! Coincidences never happen! God did it dammit!

You don't need supernatural means to explain that. If you made the sky rain frogs, I'd be more impressed.
TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 9:38:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 4:21:10 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Or aliens, aliens never get any credit.................bunch of ingrates.

True, I didn't mention aliens directly, but it could fall under the category of direct intervention.
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 9:40:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 4:25:40 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Have you ever gone to ring someone on the phone and had the phone ring as you reach for it?
Occum's razor would suggest your brain realised you were going to fast around the corner, braked and fortunately you didn't hit some deer.
You don't need supernatural means to explain that. If you made the sky rain frogs, I'd be more impressed.

Ok, so your reasoning would be that the fact that every time this happened, it was simply coincidence? I would consider the odds too steep to have 6 instances where there were elk right outside the short stopping distance. I appreciate your input :)
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 9:41:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 8:14:27 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Your scenario presumes that all information received by the brain and responded to is done so in a conscious manner. Do you actually believe this to be true?

The most likely explanation is that you either weren't consciously aware of seeing the elk or you don't remember consciously seeing the elk.

Furthermore, we know, for a fact, that the brain has subconscious visual capabilities:

http://www.nytimes.com...

So, when mundane explanations abound, I see no need to stick my hand in the grab bag of the paranormal.

In this situation, it would be impossible to see the elk until already late in the braking. It's not a situation where you didn't realize you saw them, but one where through most of the brake you would have no line of sight to see them.
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drafterman
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11/22/2011 10:22:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 9:41:54 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 8:14:27 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Your scenario presumes that all information received by the brain and responded to is done so in a conscious manner. Do you actually believe this to be true?

The most likely explanation is that you either weren't consciously aware of seeing the elk or you don't remember consciously seeing the elk.

Furthermore, we know, for a fact, that the brain has subconscious visual capabilities:

http://www.nytimes.com...

So, when mundane explanations abound, I see no need to stick my hand in the grab bag of the paranormal.

In this situation, it would be impossible to see the elk until already late in the braking. It's not a situation where you didn't realize you saw them, but one where through most of the brake you would have no line of sight to see them.

Then you described a physical impossibility. When you slam on the brakes, you can't steer, you go straight (more or less). If you slammed on the brakes and stopped in front of a group of elk crossing the road, then they were infront of you.
TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 10:26:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 10:22:14 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/22/2011 9:41:54 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 8:14:27 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Your scenario presumes that all information received by the brain and responded to is done so in a conscious manner. Do you actually believe this to be true?

The most likely explanation is that you either weren't consciously aware of seeing the elk or you don't remember consciously seeing the elk.

Furthermore, we know, for a fact, that the brain has subconscious visual capabilities:

http://www.nytimes.com...

So, when mundane explanations abound, I see no need to stick my hand in the grab bag of the paranormal.

In this situation, it would be impossible to see the elk until already late in the braking. It's not a situation where you didn't realize you saw them, but one where through most of the brake you would have no line of sight to see them.

Then you described a physical impossibility. When you slam on the brakes, you can't steer, you go straight (more or less). If you slammed on the brakes and stopped in front of a group of elk crossing the road, then they were infront of you.

Perhaps slam was too strong a word. I didn't mean to the point of locking up the brakes, you can certainly slow down while travelling along a corner.

If it's easier for you, then assume it's not a corner but a rise in the ground blocking your view, and the road is straight. The concept is the same either way. The point is that the braking starts before the possibility of seeing the elk.
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drafterman
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11/22/2011 10:51:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 10:26:47 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 10:22:14 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/22/2011 9:41:54 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 8:14:27 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Your scenario presumes that all information received by the brain and responded to is done so in a conscious manner. Do you actually believe this to be true?

The most likely explanation is that you either weren't consciously aware of seeing the elk or you don't remember consciously seeing the elk.

Furthermore, we know, for a fact, that the brain has subconscious visual capabilities:

http://www.nytimes.com...

So, when mundane explanations abound, I see no need to stick my hand in the grab bag of the paranormal.

In this situation, it would be impossible to see the elk until already late in the braking. It's not a situation where you didn't realize you saw them, but one where through most of the brake you would have no line of sight to see them.

Then you described a physical impossibility. When you slam on the brakes, you can't steer, you go straight (more or less). If you slammed on the brakes and stopped in front of a group of elk crossing the road, then they were infront of you.

Perhaps slam was too strong a word. I didn't mean to the point of locking up the brakes, you can certainly slow down while travelling along a corner.

If it's easier for you, then assume it's not a corner but a rise in the ground blocking your view, and the road is straight. The concept is the same either way. The point is that the braking starts before the possibility of seeing the elk.

Ok, well I normally break when coming to a curve or some other abberation in the road. So that's the explanation. I breaked because that's what I'd normally do.
Greyparrot
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11/22/2011 10:59:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 4:25:40 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Have you ever gone to ring someone on the phone and had the phone ring as you reach for it?
Occum's razor would suggest your brain realised you were going to fast around the corner, braked and fortunately you didn't hit some deer.
You don't need supernatural means to explain that. If you made the sky rain frogs, I'd be more impressed.

If you could fart on command, I would be impressed.
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
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11/22/2011 3:25:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:30:23 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Imagine you are driving down a narrow highway at night, the clouds are covering the stars and moon, and you are, perhaps, driving faster than is safe under the current conditions.

As you drive along, you are half-paying attention to the road, and half chatting with a friend in the car. You are travelling around a blind curve, and inexplicably you slam on your brakes. As the car screeches to a halt, you think to yourself 'why am I doing this?'. It is only when the car come to a complete stop that you are able to see the 6 elk that are crossing the road.

In this situation, there is no way you could have seen the elk before you started stopping. They were out of line of sight, blocked by the hillside.

How would you explain this situation if it happened to you? How would you explain it if it happened, say, half a dozen times?

I don't care if you are agnostic, atheist, theist, or anything else... I'm just curious as to what your opinion would be about the situation.

I woulen't care how it happened it just didn't.

Here is a funner scenario. It has been one year that you have been away from home and now after this year you are waiting for the bus. There is a male teenager waiting for it also and a yellow aura comes over him. He turns into a werewolf and attacks you what do you do.
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
TheTruthAnalyst
Posts: 312
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11/22/2011 3:32:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:25:35 PM, Calvincambridge wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:30:23 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Imagine you are driving down a narrow highway at night, the clouds are covering the stars and moon, and you are, perhaps, driving faster than is safe under the current conditions.

As you drive along, you are half-paying attention to the road, and half chatting with a friend in the car. You are travelling around a blind curve, and inexplicably you slam on your brakes. As the car screeches to a halt, you think to yourself 'why am I doing this?'. It is only when the car come to a complete stop that you are able to see the 6 elk that are crossing the road.

In this situation, there is no way you could have seen the elk before you started stopping. They were out of line of sight, blocked by the hillside.

How would you explain this situation if it happened to you? How would you explain it if it happened, say, half a dozen times?

I don't care if you are agnostic, atheist, theist, or anything else... I'm just curious as to what your opinion would be about the situation.

I woulen't care how it happened it just didn't.


Here is a funner scenario. It has been one year that you have been away from home and now after this year you are waiting for the bus. There is a male teenager waiting for it also and a yellow aura comes over him. He turns into a werewolf and attacks you what do you do.

I would appreciate if you wouldn't try to hijack the thread. You are free to make your own.
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 3:33:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 10:59:59 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/22/2011 4:25:40 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Have you ever gone to ring someone on the phone and had the phone ring as you reach for it?
Occum's razor would suggest your brain realised you were going to fast around the corner, braked and fortunately you didn't hit some deer.
You don't need supernatural means to explain that. If you made the sky rain frogs, I'd be more impressed.

If you could fart on command, I would be impressed.

Is this the standard for discussion on these forums?
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Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
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11/22/2011 3:34:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:32:45 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:25:35 PM, Calvincambridge wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:30:23 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Imagine you are driving down a narrow highway at night, the clouds are covering the stars and moon, and you are, perhaps, driving faster than is safe under the current conditions.

As you drive along, you are half-paying attention to the road, and half chatting with a friend in the car. You are travelling around a blind curve, and inexplicably you slam on your brakes. As the car screeches to a halt, you think to yourself 'why am I doing this?'. It is only when the car come to a complete stop that you are able to see the 6 elk that are crossing the road.

In this situation, there is no way you could have seen the elk before you started stopping. They were out of line of sight, blocked by the hillside.

How would you explain this situation if it happened to you? How would you explain it if it happened, say, half a dozen times?

I don't care if you are agnostic, atheist, theist, or anything else... I'm just curious as to what your opinion would be about the situation.

I wouldn't care how it happened it just didn't.


Here is a funnier scenario. It has been one year that you have been away from home and now after this year you are waiting for the bus. There is a male teenager waiting for it also and a yellow aura comes over him. He turns into a werewolf and attacks you what do you do.

I would appreciate if you wouldn't try to hijack the thread. You are free to make your own.

I actually wasn't trying to hijack it I forgot this was the religion forum I thought it was miscellaneous. sorry
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
TheTruthAnalyst
Posts: 312
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11/22/2011 3:37:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:34:47 PM, Calvincambridge wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:32:45 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:25:35 PM, Calvincambridge wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:30:23 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Imagine you are driving down a narrow highway at night, the clouds are covering the stars and moon, and you are, perhaps, driving faster than is safe under the current conditions.

As you drive along, you are half-paying attention to the road, and half chatting with a friend in the car. You are travelling around a blind curve, and inexplicably you slam on your brakes. As the car screeches to a halt, you think to yourself 'why am I doing this?'. It is only when the car come to a complete stop that you are able to see the 6 elk that are crossing the road.

In this situation, there is no way you could have seen the elk before you started stopping. They were out of line of sight, blocked by the hillside.

How would you explain this situation if it happened to you? How would you explain it if it happened, say, half a dozen times?

I don't care if you are agnostic, atheist, theist, or anything else... I'm just curious as to what your opinion would be about the situation.

I wouldn't care how it happened it just didn't.


Here is a funnier scenario. It has been one year that you have been away from home and now after this year you are waiting for the bus. There is a male teenager waiting for it also and a yellow aura comes over him. He turns into a werewolf and attacks you what do you do.

I would appreciate if you wouldn't try to hijack the thread. You are free to make your own.

I actually wasn't trying to hijack it I forgot this was the religion forum I thought it was miscellaneous. sorry

No problem. I've just had mostly joke responses on my questions so far :)
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badger
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11/22/2011 3:37:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 10:59:59 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/22/2011 4:25:40 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:31:44 AM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
Personally, I would consider it either a manifestation of some kind of ESP, or a direct intervention from some power in the universe(God, light, good, whatever).

Have you ever gone to ring someone on the phone and had the phone ring as you reach for it?
Occum's razor would suggest your brain realised you were going to fast around the corner, braked and fortunately you didn't hit some deer.
You don't need supernatural means to explain that. If you made the sky rain frogs, I'd be more impressed.

If you could fart on command, I would be impressed.

my cousin can do that! it's like he sucks air up his arse or something to fart back out! it's crazy! or he could do it anyway...childhood memories.
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.
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badger
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11/22/2011 3:44:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.

how come god loves me and looks out for me so much, an athiest, while he leaves others more holy than i starve and die horribly?
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 3:45:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:44:31 PM, badger wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.

how come god loves me and looks out for me so much, an athiest, while he leaves others more holy than i starve and die horribly?

Do you understand why forums have different threads? It's to keep topics organized and separate. If you really want to ask that question and get input, why don't you make a thread for it?
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badger
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11/22/2011 3:48:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:45:48 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:44:31 PM, badger wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.

how come god loves me and looks out for me so much, an athiest, while he leaves others more holy than i starve and die horribly?

Do you understand why forums have different threads? It's to keep topics organized and separate. If you really want to ask that question and get input, why don't you make a thread for it?

my apologies! i thought you were wondering why happenings like these don't convince athiests/agnostics and that was what you were looking for a serious responce to... misread! my bad!
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 3:50:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:48:23 PM, badger wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:45:48 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:44:31 PM, badger wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.

how come god loves me and looks out for me so much, an athiest, while he leaves others more holy than i starve and die horribly?

Do you understand why forums have different threads? It's to keep topics organized and separate. If you really want to ask that question and get input, why don't you make a thread for it?

my apologies! i thought you were wondering why happenings like these don't convince athiests/agnostics and that was what you were looking for a serious responce to... misread! my bad!

I'm sorry, I didn't take your question as a serious response to my query, considering your previous conduct in this thread.

My question is, if this type of situation happened to you repeatedly, what would you make of it?
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badger
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11/22/2011 3:51:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
but actually it was a decent answer to your wonderings anyway, though not in fairness how i'd answer honestly... numerous of such happenings would certainly convince me i was being watched... hell, i'm too damn lucky as it is...
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/22/2011 4:00:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.

Actually you did get a sensible response with regards your subconscious, you ignored it because you are just here to troll.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 4:08:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:51:24 PM, badger wrote:
but actually it was a decent answer to your wonderings anyway, though not in fairness how i'd answer honestly... numerous of such happenings would certainly convince me i was being watched... hell, i'm too damn lucky as it is...

Thanks, sorry for being on edge... I've been trying to find a good forum for a while.
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/22/2011 4:10:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 4:00:42 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:38:01 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:34:20 PM, badger wrote:
i'd thank god for my continued existence like i have many times.

That's what I do. I wonder if any number of situations like this could convince somebody who doesn't believe that something might be watching out for them. Unfortunately, nobody in the agnostic/atheist camp has presented a serious response yet.

Actually you did get a sensible response with regards your subconscious, you ignored it because you are just here to troll.

No, the premise of my question explicitly states that there is no direct line of sight to the elk. The subconscious couldn't have seen anything(unless you are claiming the subconscious can see through dirt/rock).

I'm not trolling. I'm asking some honest questions. If you don't have a serious answer you don't have to respond.
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