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Why does LDS claim to be Christian?

logicrules
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11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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11/30/2011 4:22:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been.

Depends how you define it. Many Baptists don't think Catholics are Christian.

It believes in many gods,

More than the three main Christian gods and the rest of that pantheon? I am shocked! Shocked, I say!

does not accept the scripture of the Christians,

Again, it depends how you count. The other denominations also dispute over which scriptures to honor. And Christianity, which is based on Judaism, rejects much of that religion.

still has polygamy as a doctrine

Like the Judaism of old, upon which Christianity is based.

and thinks women are not deserving.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

Could it be because Christians are a majority, and they look down on non-Christians?

---

Lewis Black on the New Testament:
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/30/2011 4:49:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

Actually early christians believed in anywhere from 1 to 32 or more gods, so that is not a prerequisite for being christian. You should also look up 1 corinthians on women and 1 timothy as well, you might learn that those views are very christian according to the bible, though one is most likely a forgery in Pauls name and the other an addition to one of Pauls work. If they follow Christ they are christian, they follow christ hence they are christian.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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11/30/2011 5:29:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is more properly defined within this analogy.

A family gathering occurs at a civic center. The entire family gathers, grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins etc...

Everyone is there.

Someone then shows up and claims, I am one of you!

If noone on the property agrees with that person, denies his proof of familial relationship, can that person still claim to be a member of the family?

Most would logically conclude no.

No one in the Christian family claims Mormons are a part of the family. The requirment of proof is direct lineage and a certain level of orthodoxy.

I can start "Gilly's Spirit Apparent Christian Church" and teach anything that comes to my mind. That does not make me a Christian if noone else in Christendom will claim me as a member of their family.

That is not to say that all Mormons are bad people or such...
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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11/30/2011 6:18:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only religion that holds all the keys. Think of a cup breaking into many different pieces. That cup represents the original Christian Church when Jesus Christ was on earth. After he died the church went into disarray because there wasn't a head. People went all different ways, taking some truth with them. Therefore, all Christian churches and some non-Christian have a portion of truth.

That is why in 1820 God had to reveal himself to an uneducated 14 year farm boy#. A young boy was chosen so God could train him in eternal ways.

6 But, exerting all my powers to acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: "they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof."

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the cadversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the dopposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

http://lds.org...

###Boyd K. Packer---It has been 400 years since the publication of the King James Bible, with significant contributions from William Tyndale, a great hero in my eyes.

The clergy did not want the Bible published in common English. They hounded Tyndale from place to place. He said to them, "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough shall know more of the Scripture than thou."1

MULTIPLE GODS:
We believe in the Godhead, which is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. The Godhead is three distinct personages united toward one cause. It's like having three different levels of management with God as the CEO. Therefore God is the only one with all the tools of eternity.

POLYGAMY:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not practice polygamy. Polygamy is one of those things that God gives and takes. In the Old Testament it was authorized, in the Book of Mormon it wasn't , in early church days it was and now it is not. It is put in place to further the work of the Lord, not just for no reason.

Women are Deserving:
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints women are told to get educated like all members. "Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith" D&C 88:118. A Latter-day Saint marriage is suppose to be an equal partnership between man and women. Also there are many leadership positions available to women.

If you are speaking about the priesthood being only for men that is true. "And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

"Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

"And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh." (D&C 84:17–21.) You can look throughout the bible men are the leaders. It is how God designed us or you could say nature. The men are the ones who desire leadership and it comes natural(exceptions as always).

We are Christian:
Follower of Christ=Christian

It is important for people to recognize as Christian because we are. It is important for people to know we love Christ the savior of the world.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. 2 Nephi 25:26
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
logicrules
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11/30/2011 6:38:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 3:57:20 PM, HyenaD wrote:
Christian = follower of Christ.
Mormons consider themselves followers of Christ.

LOL so the Christians do not get to define Christian....interesting.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/30/2011 6:39:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:38:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:57:20 PM, HyenaD wrote:
Christian = follower of Christ.
Mormons consider themselves followers of Christ.

LOL so the Christians do not get to define Christian....interesting.

Which christians get to define it, so many different views of christianity in christianity.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/30/2011 6:40:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 4:49:44 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

Actually early christians believed in anywhere from 1 to 32 or more gods, so that is not a prerequisite for being christian. You should also look up 1 corinthians on women and 1 timothy as well, you might learn that those views are very christian according to the bible, though one is most likely a forgery in Pauls name and the other an addition to one of Pauls work. If they follow Christ they are christian, they follow christ hence they are christian.

Bull...the first Christians were ALL jews, and judaism was no longer polytheistic.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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11/30/2011 6:40:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:40:14 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:49:44 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

Actually early christians believed in anywhere from 1 to 32 or more gods, so that is not a prerequisite for being christian. You should also look up 1 corinthians on women and 1 timothy as well, you might learn that those views are very christian according to the bible, though one is most likely a forgery in Pauls name and the other an addition to one of Pauls work. If they follow Christ they are christian, they follow christ hence they are christian.

Bull...the first Christians were ALL jews, and judaism was no longer polytheistic.

Please do research that is blatantly false.
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/30/2011 6:43:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:18:00 PM, tyler90az wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only religion that holds all the keys. Think of a cup breaking into many different pieces. That cup represents the original Christian Church when Jesus Christ was on earth. After he died the church went into disarray because there wasn't a head. People went all different ways, taking some truth with them. Therefore, all Christian churches and some non-Christian have a portion of truth.

That is why in 1820 God had to reveal himself to an uneducated 14 year farm boy#. A young boy was chosen so God could train him in eternal ways.

6 But, exerting all my powers to acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: "they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof."

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the cadversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the dopposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

http://lds.org...

###Boyd K. Packer---It has been 400 years since the publication of the King James Bible, with significant contributions from William Tyndale, a great hero in my eyes.

The clergy did not want the Bible published in common English. They hounded Tyndale from place to place. He said to them, "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough shall know more of the Scripture than thou."1

MULTIPLE GODS:
We believe in the Godhead, which is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. The Godhead is three distinct personages united toward one cause. It's like having three different levels of management with God as the CEO. Therefore God is the only one with all the tools of eternity.

POLYGAMY:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not practice polygamy. Polygamy is one of those things that God gives and takes. In the Old Testament it was authorized, in the Book of Mormon it wasn't , in early church days it was and now it is not. It is put in place to further the work of the Lord, not just for no reason.

Women are Deserving:
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints women are told to get educated like all members. "Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith" D&C 88:118. A Latter-day Saint marriage is suppose to be an equal partnership between man and women. Also there are many leadership positions available to women.

If you are speaking about the priesthood being only for men that is true. "And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

"Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

"And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh." (D&C 84:17–21.) You can look throughout the bible men are the leaders. It is how God designed us or you could say nature. The men are the ones who desire leadership and it comes natural(exceptions as always).

We are Christian:
Follower of Christ=Christian

It is important for people to recognize as Christian because we are. It is important for people to know we love Christ the savior of the world.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. 2 Nephi 25:26

All nonsense..Joe Smith dictated, because he was illiterate, stories to friends who published them. Young hated all women and thought blacks were evil. Polygamy is still in the Doctrine and covenants. Perhaps you could excommunicate Young and Smith if polygamy is against God?
logicrules
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11/30/2011 6:44:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:39:53 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 6:38:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:57:20 PM, HyenaD wrote:
Christian = follower of Christ.
Mormons consider themselves followers of Christ.

LOL so the Christians do not get to define Christian....interesting.

Which christians get to define it, so many different views of christianity in christianity.

Early ones, apostles and Nicean Creeds,,,
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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11/30/2011 6:45:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:40:50 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 6:40:14 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:49:44 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

Actually early christians believed in anywhere from 1 to 32 or more gods, so that is not a prerequisite for being christian. You should also look up 1 corinthians on women and 1 timothy as well, you might learn that those views are very christian according to the bible, though one is most likely a forgery in Pauls name and the other an addition to one of Pauls work. If they follow Christ they are christian, they follow christ hence they are christian.

Bull...the first Christians were ALL jews, and judaism was no longer polytheistic.

Please do research that is blatantly false.

LOL have and it is not false...but hey you never let facts confuse your issue.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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11/30/2011 7:10:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
All nonsense..Joe Smith dictated, because he was illiterate, stories to friends who published them. Young hated all women and thought blacks were evil. Polygamy is still in the Doctrine and covenants. Perhaps you could excommunicate Young and Smith if polygamy is against God?

Have you read the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon is simply literacy genius, I don't think an illiterate person would be able to think of that or a literate one. It would be impossible to think of a book with original content throughout. The Book of Mormon was clearly translated with the help of God. FYI, Joseph Smith was, however, a literate man.

Random Scripture I Like
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the alove of God, and always bretain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the cknowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

Polygamy:
It is in the D&C but not actively practiced. Furthermore, to excommunicate those who did practice we would have to eliminate the Old Testament. Read my last post to see more info on polygamy. You don't think parts should be taken from the OT do you? Don't you believe the OT is scripture?

Brigham Young
The first thing to remember is Prophets are men,they are fallible.They are subject to say questionable things like any man.

"The disadvantage of this approach, though, is that it can build the perception that past prophets were "just like us" — having all the same assumptions, traditions, and beliefs. But this is not the case at all. Prophets in all dispensations have been "men of their times," who were raised with certain beliefs and interacted all their lives with others who shared those beliefs.

For example, the Old Testament peoples believed the earth was a flat expanse, with the sky a solid dome made out of a shiny, brass-like substance. But this was the way everyone understood things at that time, so we don't begrudge Isaiah and Ezekiel of speaking of the "four corners of the earth" (Isaiah 11:12; Ezekiel 7:2), or Job for thinking the sky was a mirror (Job 37:18), or the Psalmist for thinking the earth stood still while the sun went around it (Psalms 93:1; Psalms 19:4-6).

The same principle holds true when examining the beliefs of earlier prophets about people of different races. Most nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints were raised in a world where all Black people were either slaves or illiterate poor. At the time there was much debate among American Christians in general as to how Blacks fit into God's overall plan as described in the Bible. Many theories abounded, with virtually all of them justifying, in one way or another, slavery or relegation of Blacks to the role of second-class citizens. There was even debate as to whether or not Blacks were human beings with souls that could receive salvation. (In contrast to this general Christian view, Joseph Smith declared rather progressively that yes, Blacks did have souls and could be saved.[1])

From our perspective as "enlightened" people of the early twenty-first century, virtually everyone in America up until the last few decades — prophets and other LDS leaders included — held beliefs that we could now consider racist. But that was the culture of the times, and we, like the rest of society, have progressed (line upon line, precept upon precept, see 2 Nephi 28:30) to become better people in this respect, more tolerant, more accepting. Fifty years from now, people will probably look back at our time and say, "How could they have been so bigoted?" Or, "How could they have missed issue X, which seems so clear to us now, in retrospect?"

The key point here is that the Lord works with the people who are available. He does not make them into radicals; he gives them just enough light and understanding to lift the Saints a little and make them more fit for the kingdom. In his mercy, God works with people where they are, and does not wait for them to be perfect before he will deign to speak to them. "
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
TheTruthAnalyst
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11/30/2011 9:01:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

LDS consider Christ as Lord and Savior of mankind. That counts as being 'Christian'.

LDS doesn't practice polygamy currently. Even so, polygamy was instituted in the Bible, it's not inherently a bad thing.

Think women aren't deserving? Can you back them up?

Why is it so important for you to say they aren't Christian when they say they are?
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/30/2011 9:04:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 5:29:07 PM, Gileandos wrote:
It is more properly defined within this analogy.

A family gathering occurs at a civic center. The entire family gathers, grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins etc...

Everyone is there.

Someone then shows up and claims, I am one of you!

If noone on the property agrees with that person, denies his proof of familial relationship, can that person still claim to be a member of the family?

Most would logically conclude no.

No one in the Christian family claims Mormons are a part of the family. The requirment of proof is direct lineage and a certain level of orthodoxy.

I can start "Gilly's Spirit Apparent Christian Church" and teach anything that comes to my mind. That does not make me a Christian if noone else in Christendom will claim me as a member of their family.


That is not to say that all Mormons are bad people or such...

There is a huge problem with that analogy. The 'family' tie is the New Testament. It's a reunion of people who believe in 1 book, but can't agree on everything in it. If someone else shows up and says 'I believe in that book too, but my interpretation is different', then nobody has the right to say they are any more wrong than any other.
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TheTruthAnalyst
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11/30/2011 9:05:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:38:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:57:20 PM, HyenaD wrote:
Christian = follower of Christ.
Mormons consider themselves followers of Christ.

LOL so the Christians do not get to define Christian....interesting.

'The Christians'? Would that be the one church that worships Christ and doesn't disagree on anything?

There is no such thing. Anyone who accepts Christ as their savior is a Christian. I'm sure I could find some scriptures to show that your kind of attitude is not Christlike, but I don't care to right now.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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11/30/2011 9:05:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why is it so important for you to say they aren't Christian when they say they are?:

Because of the No True Scotsman fallacy...
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
TheTruthAnalyst
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11/30/2011 9:06:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:44:32 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 6:39:53 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 6:38:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:57:20 PM, HyenaD wrote:
Christian = follower of Christ.
Mormons consider themselves followers of Christ.

LOL so the Christians do not get to define Christian....interesting.

Which christians get to define it, so many different views of christianity in christianity.

Early ones, apostles and Nicean Creeds,,,

By the time of the Nicene Council the church was already far different than it was in the NT. There were no apostles left.
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logicrules
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12/1/2011 7:21:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 9:01:54 PM, TheTruthAnalyst wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

LDS consider Christ as Lord and Savior of mankind. That counts as being 'Christian'.

LDS doesn't practice polygamy currently. Even so, polygamy was instituted in the Bible, it's not inherently a bad thing.

Think women aren't deserving? Can you back them up?

Why is it so important for you to say they aren't Christian when they say they are?

Incorrect, LDS considers Jesus the Brother of Lucifer and all male members of LDS to be equal to them. The Christ is not equal to us, he is Godfor Christians, real ones anyway.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/1/2011 7:25:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:10:50 PM, tyler90az wrote:
All nonsense..Joe Smith dictated, because he was illiterate, stories to friends who published them. Young hated all women and thought blacks were evil. Polygamy is still in the Doctrine and covenants. Perhaps you could excommunicate Young and Smith if polygamy is against God?

Have you read the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon is simply literacy genius, I don't think an illiterate person would be able to think of that or a literate one. It would be impossible to think of a book with original content throughout. The Book of Mormon was clearly translated with the help of God. FYI, Joseph Smith was, however, a literate man.

Random Scripture I Like
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the alove of God, and always bretain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the cknowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

Polygamy:
It is in the D&C but not actively practiced. Furthermore, to excommunicate those who did practice we would have to eliminate the Old Testament. Read my last post to see more info on polygamy. You don't think parts should be taken from the OT do you? Don't you believe the OT is scripture?

Brigham Young
The first thing to remember is Prophets are men,they are fallible.They are subject to say questionable things like any man.


"The disadvantage of this approach, though, is that it can build the perception that past prophets were "just like us" — having all the same assumptions, traditions, and beliefs. But this is not the case at all. Prophets in all dispensations have been "men of their times," who were raised with certain beliefs and interacted all their lives with others who shared those beliefs.

For example, the Old Testament peoples believed the earth was a flat expanse, with the sky a solid dome made out of a shiny, brass-like substance. But this was the way everyone understood things at that time, so we don't begrudge Isaiah and Ezekiel of speaking of the "four corners of the earth" (Isaiah 11:12; Ezekiel 7:2), or Job for thinking the sky was a mirror (Job 37:18), or the Psalmist for thinking the earth stood still while the sun went around it (Psalms 93:1; Psalms 19:4-6).

The same principle holds true when examining the beliefs of earlier prophets about people of different races. Most nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints were raised in a world where all Black people were either slaves or illiterate poor. At the time there was much debate among American Christians in general as to how Blacks fit into God's overall plan as described in the Bible. Many theories abounded, with virtually all of them justifying, in one way or another, slavery or relegation of Blacks to the role of second-class citizens. There was even debate as to whether or not Blacks were human beings with souls that could receive salvation. (In contrast to this general Christian view, Joseph Smith declared rather progressively that yes, Blacks did have souls and could be saved.[1])



From our perspective as "enlightened" people of the early twenty-first century, virtually everyone in America up until the last few decades — prophets and other LDS leaders included — held beliefs that we could now consider racist. But that was the culture of the times, and we, like the rest of society, have progressed (line upon line, precept upon precept, see 2 Nephi 28:30) to become better people in this respect, more tolerant, more accepting. Fifty years from now, people will probably look back at our time and say, "How could they have been so bigoted?" Or, "How could they have missed issue X, which seems so clear to us now, in retrospect?"

The key point here is that the Lord works with the people who are available. He does not make them into radicals; he gives them just enough light and understanding to lift the Saints a little and make them more fit for the kingdom. In his mercy, God works with people where they are, and does not wait for them to be perfect before he will deign to speak to them. "

Yes, and Doctrine and covenants as well as numerious comtemperary documents. Doctrine and Covenants, as well as current apostles of LDS claim polygamy is LDS teaching and all LDS males will have many wives and planets to populate when they die. Also, the book of mormon has been proved to be made up by the illiterate Joe Smith, as "testified" by Cowen.
logicrules
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12/1/2011 7:26:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 9:05:38 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Why is it so important for you to say they aren't Christian when they say they are?:

Because of the No True Scotsman fallacy...

lol is that an Aristotelian fallacy, or one of those dumbed down for the masses?
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/1/2011 7:31:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 10:20:22 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Here is an official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org...

It does not get any more Christian than the Church!

LOL they claim falsely. Even satan claimed to be Christian. No LDS member can hold to LDS Doctrine and Christian Doctrine.....they are contradictory. Thus one is either Mormon or Christian. POLYTHEISTS v. MONOTHEISTS
Rule of Reason and Logic; When an entity makes two statements, both of which CAN NOT be true, one need not establish which is false to establish that the entity, or person, is incorrect or disingenuous.
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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12/1/2011 8:44:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:40:50 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 6:40:14 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:49:44 PM, izbo10 wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:34:02 PM, logicrules wrote:
The LDS is not Christian, nor has it ever been. It believes in many gods, does not accept the scripture of the Christians, still has polygamy as a doctrine and thinks women are not deserving. Why is it so important for them to have others think they are Christian?

Actually early christians believed in anywhere from 1 to 32 or more gods, so that is not a prerequisite for being christian. You should also look up 1 corinthians on women and 1 timothy as well, you might learn that those views are very christian according to the bible, though one is most likely a forgery in Pauls name and the other an addition to one of Pauls work. If they follow Christ they are christian, they follow christ hence they are christian.

Bull...the first Christians were ALL jews, and judaism was no longer polytheistic.

Please do research that is blatantly false.

"In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that
the Jewish Scripture (the Christian "Old Testament") was inspired by the one
true God. Others believed it was inspired by the God of the Jews, who was not
the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by an evil deity. Others believed
it was not inspired." Bart Ehrman Lost Christianities pg 2.

pdf of the book for you to actually learn early christianity here http://sheekh-3arb.org...
DDO's marketing strategy has certainly paid off just not sure I agree with the target market: http://tinypic.com...
It's amazing to me that you still have yet to grasp the difference between believing something, not believing something, and having no belief at all -JCMT
To respect religion, is to disrespect the Truth!

If this board was a room and you all were the light bulbs, I'm bringing a flashlight.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/1/2011 8:52:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Logicrules,

When you make a claim you are required to give a reason why, that is debate 101. You can't just say things that are false. That seems to be your norm throughout this post. Take a breath, do some research and debate. I know it's intimidating for a lot of other Christian churches to know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone from a few members in 1830 to 14 million now.

Cheers,
Tyler
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/1/2011 8:59:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 9:05:38 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Why is it so important for you to say they aren't Christian when they say they are?:

Because of the No True Scotsman fallacy...

No True Scotsman fallacy does not apply to an ideology. The ideology does indeed define your label.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/1/2011 8:59:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 5:29:07 PM, Gileandos wrote:
It is more properly defined within this analogy.

A family gathering occurs at a civic center. The entire family gathers, grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins etc...

Everyone is there.

Someone then shows up and claims, I am one of you!

If noone on the property agrees with that person, denies his proof of familial relationship, can that person still claim to be a member of the family?

Most would logically conclude no.

No one in the Christian family claims Mormons are a part of the family. The requirment of proof is direct lineage and a certain level of orthodoxy.

I can start "Gilly's Spirit Apparent Christian Church" and teach anything that comes to my mind. That does not make me a Christian if noone else in Christendom will claim me as a member of their family.


That is not to say that all Mormons are bad people or such...

Bad analogy. Familial connections are not determined by consensus.
drafterman
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12/1/2011 9:00:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 6:38:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 11/30/2011 3:57:20 PM, HyenaD wrote:
Christian = follower of Christ.
Mormons consider themselves followers of Christ.

LOL so the Christians do not get to define Christian....interesting.

Oh, please provide your definition of "Christian." I'll look forward to hearing this.