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Transignification

logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/5/2011 4:54:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
This post is mainly for main stream Christians as it involves incarnational theology. I was curious about how many had even heard of the term, and if so was it in any course work. Transignification is the construct holding that all things of this world take on a new significance by and through the incarnation. I am fairly confident it does not apply to most fundamentalist Christian groups.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/5/2011 9:20:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 4:54:57 AM, logicrules wrote:
This post is mainly for main stream Christians as it involves incarnational theology. I was curious about how many had even heard of the term, and if so was it in any course work. Transignification is the construct holding that all things of this world take on a new significance by and through the incarnation. I am fairly confident it does not apply to most fundamentalist Christian groups.

Exciting discussion. Thank you for this post.

http://www.catholicreference.net...

A clear point is that Catholics have disavowed it if it is taken to mean something other than transubstantiation.

This was back in the 60's by the Pope and it is a matter of doctrine.

There is quite a discussion as to what "transignification means by mainstream theologians.

I myself am uncertain on transubstantiation, though a mystical unknown presence was argued for from 900-on in the eucharist.

It could be a "real" presence within the eucharist that is a non-chemical one. I would point out though, that I have never experienced the eucharist of the Catholic Church in any supernatural way.

I would think that both could be true at the same time. However, a real presence "more" than mere flesh and blood of a human must be present. For transubstantiation to be valid, I would think it would require some mystical presence within it to give it supernatural effects.

I do not know if I would go so far as "eating" divine essence as some but something must be present more than mere flesh and blood that is giving the eucharist significance beyond chemicals.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/5/2011 9:58:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 9:20:35 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/5/2011 4:54:57 AM, logicrules wrote:
This post is mainly for main stream Christians as it involves incarnational theology. I was curious about how many had even heard of the term, and if so was it in any course work. Transignification is the construct holding that all things of this world take on a new significance by and through the incarnation. I am fairly confident it does not apply to most fundamentalist Christian groups.

Exciting discussion. Thank you for this post.

http://www.catholicreference.net...

A clear point is that Catholics have disavowed it if it is taken to mean something other than transubstantiation.

This was back in the 60's by the Pope and it is a matter of doctrine.

There is quite a discussion as to what "transignification means by mainstream theologians.

I myself am uncertain on transubstantiation, though a mystical unknown presence was argued for from 900-on in the eucharist.

It could be a "real" presence within the eucharist that is a non-chemical one. I would point out though, that I have never experienced the eucharist of the Catholic Church in any supernatural way.

I would think that both could be true at the same time. However, a real presence "more" than mere flesh and blood of a human must be present. For transubstantiation to be valid, I would think it would require some mystical presence within it to give it supernatural effects.

I do not know if I would go so far as "eating" divine essence as some but something must be present more than mere flesh and blood that is giving the eucharist significance beyond chemicals.

Permit me, if I may. Transignification is not related to transubstantiation. The construct I believe you refer to is an attempt by DeJardn (apologies on spelling) to replace transubstantiation Doctrine. Transignification, as sacramental theology, refers to the change in significance of a normal, natural act or substance in Christ..ie sacrament. Though in Sacramental theology it is also interesting as the only sacrament where it applies but is ignored is marriage....go figure.

For the record...Real Presence is Dogma, Transubstantiation Doctrine. Dogma doesn't change, Doctrine often does.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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12/5/2011 2:23:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Like most Christian doctrine, the idea is, of course, patently absurd.

Even if ordinary events took on new meaning through the incarnation, nobody alive today would be able to realize it, because we would be exposed only to the new meaning and never to the old.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/5/2011 2:58:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 2:23:16 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Like most Christian doctrine, the idea is, of course, patently absurd.

Even if ordinary events took on new meaning through the incarnation, nobody alive today would be able to realize it, because we would be exposed only to the new meaning and never to the old.

Non-sequitor.

The incarnation does not necessitate your conclusion that only one meaning would be experiential.

Nothing about the Incarnation suggests that only one perspective would be experienced. Christian Theology asserts that both are simultaneously experienced. The "New" Man from partaking in Christ and the "Old" Man. The Christian who dedicates his life to Holiness is a person that precludes himself to existing in the experiential New Man.

This is laid out dogmatically in the Pauline Epistle of Romans.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/5/2011 3:01:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 9:58:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/5/2011 9:20:35 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/5/2011 4:54:57 AM, logicrules wrote:
This post is mainly for main stream Christians as it involves incarnational theology. I was curious about how many had even heard of the term, and if so was it in any course work. Transignification is the construct holding that all things of this world take on a new significance by and through the incarnation. I am fairly confident it does not apply to most fundamentalist Christian groups.

Exciting discussion. Thank you for this post.

http://www.catholicreference.net...

A clear point is that Catholics have disavowed it if it is taken to mean something other than transubstantiation.

This was back in the 60's by the Pope and it is a matter of doctrine.

There is quite a discussion as to what "transignification means by mainstream theologians.

I myself am uncertain on transubstantiation, though a mystical unknown presence was argued for from 900-on in the eucharist.

It could be a "real" presence within the eucharist that is a non-chemical one. I would point out though, that I have never experienced the eucharist of the Catholic Church in any supernatural way.

I would think that both could be true at the same time. However, a real presence "more" than mere flesh and blood of a human must be present. For transubstantiation to be valid, I would think it would require some mystical presence within it to give it supernatural effects.

I do not know if I would go so far as "eating" divine essence as some but something must be present more than mere flesh and blood that is giving the eucharist significance beyond chemicals.


Permit me, if I may. Transignification is not related to transubstantiation. The construct I believe you refer to is an attempt by DeJardn (apologies on spelling) to replace transubstantiation Doctrine. Transignification, as sacramental theology, refers to the change in significance of a normal, natural act or substance in Christ..ie sacrament. Though in Sacramental theology it is also interesting as the only sacrament where it applies but is ignored is marriage....go figure.

For the record...Real Presence is Dogma, Transubstantiation Doctrine. Dogma doesn't change, Doctrine often does.

Can you post a link with your particular understanding of the Term? I have posted the Catholic Reference/the mainstream Churches teaching as I understand it.

Technically the Pope in 65 allowed an interpretation if one desired that all Seven sacraments could indeed have a mystical significance as long as it did not conflict with established Papal Dogma.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/5/2011 3:15:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago

Can you post a link with your particular understanding of the Term? I have posted the Catholic Reference/the mainstream Churches teaching as I understand it.

Technically the Pope in 65 allowed an interpretation if one desired that all Seven sacraments could indeed have a mystical significance as long as it did not conflict with established Papal Dogma.

Probably not, because mine is based on theological studies. Your post is most interesting to me in that it supports my idea regarding Catholics, of which I am one btw. I will say this though, you seem to confuse incarnation with blessed sacrament. The incarnation is the Birth of Jesus. The Word incarnate. The fullness of creation, if you prefer.
Papal Dogma is a new one. Do you mean ex cathedra as defined by VAT I or the collegial model of the episcopacy?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/5/2011 6:10:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 4:54:57 AM, logicrules wrote:
This post is mainly for main stream Christians as it involves incarnational theology. I was curious about how many had even heard of the term, and if so was it in any course work. Transignification is the construct holding that all things of this world take on a new significance by and through the incarnation. I am fairly confident it does not apply to most fundamentalist Christian groups.

I've heard of it but that mainly has to do with my independent theological and philosophical studies.
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