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Why do people go to Hell?

gr33k_fr33k5
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12/7/2011 12:05:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I often hear claims of unfairness on the part of God regarding Heaven and Hell.

I would agree that from a secular world view it seems unfair, why would some "bad" people go to heaven while millions upon millions of "good" people go the Hell? The truth is no one is good enough for heaven.

Prerequisites to get into heaven:
1) Gotta be perfect

There are no perfect people . . . this is not because of "original sin" (i don't really understand it enough to buy into it), it is because perfection can only be attained through walking perfectly in the plan that God has for each individuals life. That means every single thought must be aligned with God, every single word must be exactly as God himself would have said it, otherwise it isn't perfect.

One single mistake and we are doomed. That's just the way it is. If you are not perfect you are imperfect. If you are imperfect you do not get into heaven.

So, why the horrid horrid punishment? I don't believe God created Hell to "punish" Satan and his minions. Rather God created Hell as a necessary balance to heaven. Heaven represents all the grace, charity, love, and benevolence of God poured out on it's inhabitants. Hell is the exact opposite. It is God's wrath, judgement, and condemnation poured out on it's inhabitants. There are only two options for where we will "go" . . . and everyone (without Christ) goes to Hell. Again you have to be perfect to get into heaven.

Why eternal punishment? In order for God to be just sin requires punishment. There is no grace no kindness, just judgement. Unfortunately sin is deserving of eternal punishment. Its pretty much life in prison. Punishment doesn't lead to perfection, merely justice.

Ultimately God judges the heart, something which no man can see. We ought not judge others since it is impossible for a human with finite knowledge to truly understand another creature in God's creation. That being said I would exhort Christians not to live in haughty arrogance but rather in an understanding that if not for the grace of Jesus we would all be doomed.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/7/2011 12:15:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 12:05:52 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
I often hear claims of unfairness on the part of God regarding Heaven and Hell.

I would agree that from a secular world view it seems unfair, why would some "bad" people go to heaven while millions upon millions of "good" people go the Hell? The truth is no one is good enough for heaven.

Prerequisites to get into heaven:
1) Gotta be perfect

There are no perfect people . . . this is not because of "original sin" (i don't really understand it enough to buy into it), it is because perfection can only be attained through walking perfectly in the plan that God has for each individuals life. That means every single thought must be aligned with God, every single word must be exactly as God himself would have said it, otherwise it isn't perfect.

One single mistake and we are doomed. That's just the way it is. If you are not perfect you are imperfect. If you are imperfect you do not get into heaven.

So, why the horrid horrid punishment? I don't believe God created Hell to "punish" Satan and his minions. Rather God created Hell as a necessary balance to heaven. Heaven represents all the grace, charity, love, and benevolence of God poured out on it's inhabitants. Hell is the exact opposite. It is God's wrath, judgement, and condemnation poured out on it's inhabitants. There are only two options for where we will "go" . . . and everyone (without Christ) goes to Hell. Again you have to be perfect to get into heaven.

Why eternal punishment? In order for God to be just sin requires punishment. There is no grace no kindness, just judgement. Unfortunately sin is deserving of eternal punishment. Its pretty much life in prison. Punishment doesn't lead to perfection, merely justice.

Ultimately God judges the heart, something which no man can see. We ought not judge others since it is impossible for a human with finite knowledge to truly understand another creature in God's creation. That being said I would exhort Christians not to live in haughty arrogance but rather in an understanding that if not for the grace of Jesus we would all be doomed.

1. You said you have to be perfect to get into heaven, but no one is perfect. I don't see any exceptions, so how does anyone get into heaven.
2. Why is it necessary to have a "balance" to heaven?
3. No crime warrants eternal punishment. Ergo, eternal punishment is never a just punishment.
4. Life in prison is still finite.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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12/7/2011 4:22:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is no Heaven or Hell.

When you die it's like going to sleep forever without any dreams.
How can I make this assertion when I (admittedly) don't actually know?

Your personality traits, thoughts and senses are controlled by electrical impulses in your brain. THIS IS FACT!
We know that the personality is contained in the brain because people with brain damage often have complete personality changes, right?

When you 'die' these electrical impulses stop. THIS IS FACT!
We have the technology to prove this, right? Electroencephalography for the win.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that the billions of traits and thoughts that make up your personality somehow leave your body and float up into the sky (or down into the centre of the earth) and your personality continues to exist outside your brain.

This is Bronze Age nonsense.
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s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/7/2011 4:27:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You said people are not perfect. Whose fault is that? Didn't God create people? Did God create people, perfectly or imperfectly? If God created people, imperfectly, then, God isn't perfect and should not be in Heaven, either.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/8/2011 2:24:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's impossible for us to be perfect. Whose fault is that?
Gods fault OR Adam and Eves fault.
Either way it's not our fault we can't get into heaven and thus we should not be punished for it. Why would God create humans knowing that the majority would not be able to enter heaven?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Buckethead31594
Posts: 363
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12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." - Socrates
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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12/8/2011 3:48:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.

Here is reality---- deut 32:4 says-- all of Gods ways are justice--- so for 70-90 years of sin God would not condemn someone to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of years of eternal punishment-- there is no justice in that teaching-- it is a sadistic lie taught by false religions---any religion teaching just heaven or hell as the end is a false religion--Jesus said--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. they teach those things because in reality they do not know God or his son.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/8/2011 4:05:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 3:48:23 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.



Here is reality---- deut 32:4 says-- all of Gods ways are justice--- so for 70-90 years of sin God would not condemn someone to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of years of eternal punishment-- there is no justice in that teaching-- it is a sadistic lie taught by false religions---any religion teaching just heaven or hell as the end is a false religion--Jesus said--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. they teach those things because in reality they do not know God or his son.

I agree. I just find it hard to interpret the scriptures leaving out hell. If someone convinced me that you can't believe the Bible while also believing there is no hell(at least the common concept of hell) I would stop being Christian altogether.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Buckethead31594
Posts: 363
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12/8/2011 4:38:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 3:48:23 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.



Here is reality---- deut 32:4 says-- all of Gods ways are justice--- so for 70-90 years of sin God would not condemn someone to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of years of eternal punishment-- there is no justice in that teaching-- it is a sadistic lie taught by false religions---any religion teaching just heaven or hell as the end is a false religion--Jesus said--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. they teach those things because in reality they do not know God or his son.

opinions, opinions. I had just wanted to say something nice to the person who posted this topic. Mostly everything on these forums are composed of criticism and controversy (yes, I know what your thinking, "What would you expect from a website entitled, 'Debate.org?'"). So why not a change of pace?
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." - Socrates
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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12/8/2011 5:16:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 4:05:42 PM, phantom wrote:
At 12/8/2011 3:48:23 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.



Here is reality---- deut 32:4 says-- all of Gods ways are justice--- so for 70-90 years of sin God would not condemn someone to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of years of eternal punishment-- there is no justice in that teaching-- it is a sadistic lie taught by false religions---any religion teaching just heaven or hell as the end is a false religion--Jesus said--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. they teach those things because in reality they do not know God or his son.

I agree. I just find it hard to interpret the scriptures leaving out hell. If someone convinced me that you can't believe the Bible while also believing there is no hell(at least the common concept of hell) I would stop being Christian altogether.

Hell is symbolism in the bible-- for the eternal cutting off from God---His word teaches that those that walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed--- The lake of fire is symbolic, fire destroys eternally. Hades gets cast into the lake of fire, it cannot suffer, it can be destroyed. Also in the symbolism about hell--it says a place where worms never die--in a hot place a worm wouldnt live a half hour-- 6 feet under is where worms survive. Also the hebrew word Sheol = the greek word Hades, both of those words translate-- the common grave of mankind.
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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12/8/2011 5:17:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 4:38:03 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 3:48:23 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.



Here is reality---- deut 32:4 says-- all of Gods ways are justice--- so for 70-90 years of sin God would not condemn someone to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of years of eternal punishment-- there is no justice in that teaching-- it is a sadistic lie taught by false religions---any religion teaching just heaven or hell as the end is a false religion--Jesus said--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. they teach those things because in reality they do not know God or his son.

opinions, opinions. I had just wanted to say something nice to the person who posted this topic. Mostly everything on these forums are composed of criticism and controversy (yes, I know what your thinking, "What would you expect from a website entitled, 'Debate.org?'"). So why not a change of pace?

I was just sharing truth.
Buckethead31594
Posts: 363
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12/8/2011 5:55:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 5:17:57 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 4:38:03 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 3:48:23 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 12/8/2011 2:43:59 PM, Buckethead31594 wrote:
Thank you for this post, gr33k_fr33k5, I have been thinking about this topic for the past week; you have shed some new light on it for me.



Here is reality---- deut 32:4 says-- all of Gods ways are justice--- so for 70-90 years of sin God would not condemn someone to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of years of eternal punishment-- there is no justice in that teaching-- it is a sadistic lie taught by false religions---any religion teaching just heaven or hell as the end is a false religion--Jesus said--Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. they teach those things because in reality they do not know God or his son.

opinions, opinions. I had just wanted to say something nice to the person who posted this topic. Mostly everything on these forums are composed of criticism and controversy (yes, I know what your thinking, "What would you expect from a website entitled, 'Debate.org?'"). So why not a change of pace?


I was just sharing truth.

Forgive me, I took it the wrong way.
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." - Socrates
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/8/2011 6:33:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 12:05:52 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
why the horrid horrid punishment? I don't believe God created Hell to "punish" Satan and his minions. Rather God created Hell as a necessary balance to heaven. Heaven represents all the grace, charity, love, and benevolence of God poured out on it's inhabitants. Hell is the exact opposite. It is God's wrath, judgement, and condemnation poured out on it's inhabitants. There are only two options for where we will "go" . . . and everyone (without Christ) goes to Hell. Again you have to be perfect to get into heaven.

Why eternal punishment? In order for God to be just sin requires punishment. There is no grace no kindness, just judgement. Unfortunately sin is deserving of eternal punishment. Its pretty much life in prison. Punishment doesn't lead to perfection, merely justice.


This doesn't make sense. The vast majority of Christian thought has always held that God is essentially loving, graceful, good, charitable, and the like. What this means is that God could be no other way than having a loving (etc) nature. It's not as if he can bifurcate his nature and on one hand display charity, grace, and love to those in heaven and then on another display his wrath, judgement, and condemnation to those in hell. If he is wrathful, judging, and condemning those in hell he has to do so in a way that is compatible with his loving, graceful, good, charitable nature. Even in his anger he has to express it in a way consistent with his nature. The way you describe God here makes him sound as if he's taking some of his kids to Disneyland and while, on the other hand, beating other of his children for no good reason.
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s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/8/2011 8:37:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 6:33:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
"The way you describe God here makes him sound as if he's taking some of his kids to Disneyland and while, on the other hand, beating other of his children for no good reason."

No. God's taking some kids to Disneyland. The others he's setting on fire and watching them burn alive in indescribable pain and anguish, not letting the flame consume them, so they can suffer this horrific ordeal throughout eternity.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/8/2011 8:40:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 8:37:55 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/8/2011 6:33:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
"The way you describe God here makes him sound as if he's taking some of his kids to Disneyland and while, on the other hand, beating other of his children for no good reason."

No. God's taking some kids to Disneyland. The others he's setting on fire and watching them burn alive in indescribable pain and anguish, not letting the flame consume them, so they can suffer this horrific ordeal throughout eternity.

Yeah, a much more apt analogy.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/8/2011 8:48:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 6:33:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This doesn't make sense. The vast majority of Christian thought has always held that God is essentially loving, graceful, good, charitable, and the like. What this means is that God could be no other way than having a loving (etc) nature. It's not as if he can bifurcate his nature and on one hand display charity, grace, and love to those in heaven and then on another display his wrath, judgement, and condemnation to those in hell. If he is wrathful, judging, and condemning those in hell he has to do so in a way that is compatible with his loving, graceful, good, charitable nature. Even in his anger he has to express it in a way consistent with his nature. The way you describe God here makes him sound as if he's taking some of his kids to Disneyland and while, on the other hand, beating other of his children for no good reason.

So how is his wrathful, judging and condemning people to torturous suffering for all eternity compatible with his loving, graceful, good and charitable nature? I think that's what gr33k fr33k was asking.
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/8/2011 8:57:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 8:48:42 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/8/2011 6:33:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This doesn't make sense. The vast majority of Christian thought has always held that God is essentially loving, graceful, good, charitable, and the like. What this means is that God could be no other way than having a loving (etc) nature. It's not as if he can bifurcate his nature and on one hand display charity, grace, and love to those in heaven and then on another display his wrath, judgement, and condemnation to those in hell. If he is wrathful, judging, and condemning those in hell he has to do so in a way that is compatible with his loving, graceful, good, charitable nature. Even in his anger he has to express it in a way consistent with his nature. The way you describe God here makes him sound as if he's taking some of his kids to Disneyland and while, on the other hand, beating other of his children for no good reason.

So how is his wrathful, judging and condemning people to torturous suffering for all eternity compatible with his loving, graceful, good and charitable nature? I think that's what gr33k fr33k was asking.

I thought he was advancing a line of thought to show that they are compatible? I was objecting to that line of thought. Maybe I misread it.

*shrug* I don't know. I don't think they are. I'm an annihilationist. Perhaps there are some people around here who can provide an explanation. Maybe try to get Gileandos or Daley to show up.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/7/2014 11:17:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2011 12:05:52 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
I often hear claims of unfairness on the part of God regarding Heaven and Hell.

I would agree that from a secular world view it seems unfair, why would some "bad" people go to heaven while millions upon millions of "good" people go the Hell? The truth is no one is good enough for heaven.

Prerequisites to get into heaven:
1) Gotta be perfect

There are no perfect people . . . this is not because of "original sin" (i don't really understand it enough to buy into it), it is because perfection can only be attained through walking perfectly in the plan that God has for each individuals life. That means every single thought must be aligned with God, every single word must be exactly as God himself would have said it, otherwise it isn't perfect.

One single mistake and we are doomed. That's just the way it is. If you are not perfect you are imperfect. If you are imperfect you do not get into heaven.

So, why the horrid horrid punishment? I don't believe God created Hell to "punish" Satan and his minions. Rather God created Hell as a necessary balance to heaven. Heaven represents all the grace, charity, love, and benevolence of God poured out on it's inhabitants. Hell is the exact opposite. It is God's wrath, judgement, and condemnation poured out on it's inhabitants. There are only two options for where we will "go" . . . and everyone (without Christ) goes to Hell. Again you have to be perfect to get into heaven.

Why eternal punishment? In order for God to be just sin requires punishment. There is no grace no kindness, just judgement. Unfortunately sin is deserving of eternal punishment. Its pretty much life in prison. Punishment doesn't lead to perfection, merely justice.

Ultimately God judges the heart, something which no man can see. We ought not judge others since it is impossible for a human with finite knowledge to truly understand another creature in God's creation. That being said I would exhort Christians not to live in haughty arrogance but rather in an understanding that if not for the grace of Jesus we would all be doomed.

completely agree with you, couldn't say it better myself
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/7/2014 11:47:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2011 4:22:37 PM, tvellalott wrote:
There is no Heaven or Hell.

When you die it's like going to sleep forever without any dreams.
How can I make this assertion when I (admittedly) don't actually know?

Your personality traits, thoughts and senses are controlled by electrical impulses in your brain. THIS IS FACT!

Fact. Could you please show me where a biological basis for personality is accepted as fact or has been proven to be so? I admit such theory is cutting edge, could this be you asserting something is fact because a biological basis for personality can not be falsified?

In which case, now I get it. Can't prove it wrong so it is Fact. Seems legit.

We know that the personality is contained in the brain because people with brain damage often have complete personality changes, right?


Can you show me an example of "complete" personality change? As I have read about some of these cases the pre-injury personality is mostly present with the addition of behavioral problems like flash anger or depression, or patients do suffer from decreased motivation and such. But how do you relate the cause to brain damage and not the event that caused the brain damage. Could these behavioral changes also be an expression of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder?

When you 'die' these electrical impulses stop. THIS IS FACT!
We have the technology to prove this, right? Electroencephalography for the win.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that the billions of traits and thoughts that make up your personality somehow leave your body and float up into the sky (or down into the centre of the earth) and your personality continues to exist outside your brain.

This is Bronze Age nonsense.

I do not seem the leap in logic you are attempting. Scenario 1: The soul can exist outside this body. To effect things in this world the soul must operate through a complex living organism through a brain. When the brain dies the soul is cut off from effecting this world.

Would that scenario match with the facts you presented and still be a conclusion alternate to the "Fact" you claim exists? I think so.