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No Such thing as eternal damnation

MasterKage
Posts: 1,257
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12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 2:01:29 PM, epicuriousluxurious wrote:
After reading

http://www.tentmaker.org...

and

http://www.tentmaker.org...

I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as eternal damnation. It is incorrect biblically, logically, and historically. If anyone wants to prove me wrong, he/she must take a look at these both of these links. If anyone can prove me wrong, go ahead. If anyone has more than fifty years of experience in studying greek/hebrew words as the authors in the links that I presented, and can come to conclusion that Hell is real and is eternal, then show me. I believe God is loving and he will save all men. I hope the best for all of you.

Epicuriousluxurious original thread, moved from debate.org to religion.

Discuss
This signature is full of timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff...
ApostateAbe
Posts: 225
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12/10/2011 7:39:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
At 12/10/2011 2:01:29 PM, epicuriousluxurious wrote:
After reading

http://www.tentmaker.org...

and

http://www.tentmaker.org...

I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as eternal damnation. It is incorrect biblically, logically, and historically. If anyone wants to prove me wrong, he/she must take a look at these both of these links. If anyone can prove me wrong, go ahead. If anyone has more than fifty years of experience in studying greek/hebrew words as the authors in the links that I presented, and can come to conclusion that Hell is real and is eternal, then show me. I believe God is loving and he will save all men. I hope the best for all of you.

Epicuriousluxurious original thread, moved from debate.org to religion.

Discuss

The word "aionios" (αἰώνιος) is used for "eternal" or "everlasting" in the gospels. Some believe that this is not a correct translation, but it actually means "age during." I doubt that translation. If we use both translations and compare them, then I think the orthodox interpretation wins. My prooftext would be Mark 3:29 (NRSV).

"...but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an [eternal/age-during] sin..."

There is a contrast drawn in this passage. If you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, then you "never" (οὐ) have forgiveness, but you go into the opposite of that, which would be a punishment described with the opposite of "never." The passages does not make sense unless "οὐ" (never) and "αἰώνιος" (eternal/age-during) are opposite words. The opposite of "never" is "all of the time" or "eternal." Therefore, the punishment is eternal, not simply age-during.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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12/10/2011 7:39:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It sounds like epi is a universalist, which is probably seen as the the least plausible position for most Christians, although, looking from the outside, it's always been the view I've favoured.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/11/2011 10:28:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 7:39:14 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
At 12/10/2011 2:01:29 PM, epicuriousluxurious wrote:
After reading

http://www.tentmaker.org...

and

http://www.tentmaker.org...

I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as eternal damnation. It is incorrect biblically, logically, and historically. If anyone wants to prove me wrong, he/she must take a look at these both of these links. If anyone can prove me wrong, go ahead. If anyone has more than fifty years of experience in studying greek/hebrew words as the authors in the links that I presented, and can come to conclusion that Hell is real and is eternal, then show me. I believe God is loving and he will save all men. I hope the best for all of you.

Epicuriousluxurious original thread, moved from debate.org to religion.

Discuss

The word "aionios" (αἰώνιος) is used for "eternal" or "everlasting" in the gospels. Some believe that this is not a correct translation, but it actually means "age during." I doubt that translation. If we use both translations and compare them, then I think the orthodox interpretation wins. My prooftext would be Mark 3:29 (NRSV).

"...but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an [eternal/age-during] sin..."

There is a contrast drawn in this passage. If you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, then you "never" (οὐ) have forgiveness, but you go into the opposite of that, which would be a punishment described with the opposite of "never." The passages does not make sense unless "οὐ" (never) and "αἰώνιος" (eternal/age-during) are opposite words. The opposite of "never" is "all of the time" or "eternal." Therefore, the punishment is eternal, not simply age-during.

Any sin may be forgiven. To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/11/2011 10:35:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Any sin may be forgiven.:

Except denial of the Holy Spirit, whatever that means.

To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.:

"Stupid is as stupid does" -- Forest Gump
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
ApostateAbe
Posts: 225
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12/11/2011 1:27:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 10:28:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
Any sin may be forgiven. To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.
Yeah, but that seems to be another debate. The meaning of the quote of Jesus seems plain enough, whatever its philosophical merits.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/11/2011 1:58:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 1:27:11 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
At 12/11/2011 10:28:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
Any sin may be forgiven. To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.
Yeah, but that seems to be another debate. The meaning of the quote of Jesus seems plain enough, whatever its philosophical merits.

Any statements attributed to the Christ are, probably, not from him, except abba aremeic for "daddy". (historical criticism) After all nothing was written till after the destruction of the temple, and quoting was not popular in their culture, assigning ones own words to a popular figure from the past was.
ApostateAbe
Posts: 225
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12/11/2011 2:22:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 1:58:08 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/11/2011 1:27:11 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
At 12/11/2011 10:28:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
Any sin may be forgiven. To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.
Yeah, but that seems to be another debate. The meaning of the quote of Jesus seems plain enough, whatever its philosophical merits.

Any statements attributed to the Christ are, probably, not from him, except abba aremeic for "daddy". (historical criticism) After all nothing was written till after the destruction of the temple, and quoting was not popular in their culture, assigning ones own words to a popular figure from the past was.
Right, but the relevant debate is about interpreting the gospel's quotes of Jesus, not about the actual words of the historical Jesus.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/11/2011 3:52:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 10:28:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/10/2011 7:39:14 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
At 12/10/2011 2:01:29 PM, epicuriousluxurious wrote:
After reading

http://www.tentmaker.org...

and

http://www.tentmaker.org...

I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as eternal damnation. It is incorrect biblically, logically, and historically. If anyone wants to prove me wrong, he/she must take a look at these both of these links. If anyone can prove me wrong, go ahead. If anyone has more than fifty years of experience in studying greek/hebrew words as the authors in the links that I presented, and can come to conclusion that Hell is real and is eternal, then show me. I believe God is loving and he will save all men. I hope the best for all of you.

Epicuriousluxurious original thread, moved from debate.org to religion.

Discuss

The word "aionios" (αἰώνιος) is used for "eternal" or "everlasting" in the gospels. Some believe that this is not a correct translation, but it actually means "age during." I doubt that translation. If we use both translations and compare them, then I think the orthodox interpretation wins. My prooftext would be Mark 3:29 (NRSV).

"...but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an [eternal/age-during] sin..."

There is a contrast drawn in this passage. If you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, then you "never" (οὐ) have forgiveness, but you go into the opposite of that, which would be a punishment described with the opposite of "never." The passages does not make sense unless "οὐ" (never) and "αἰώνιος" (eternal/age-during) are opposite words. The opposite of "never" is "all of the time" or "eternal." Therefore, the punishment is eternal, not simply age-during.

Any sin may be forgiven. To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.

Um, Jesus even states there is a sin that is unforgivable. That sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/11/2011 3:53:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 1:58:08 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/11/2011 1:27:11 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
At 12/11/2011 10:28:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
Any sin may be forgiven. To deny forgiveness is to deny God and claim Jesus was a fool.
Yeah, but that seems to be another debate. The meaning of the quote of Jesus seems plain enough, whatever its philosophical merits.

Any statements attributed to the Christ are, probably, not from him, except abba aremeic for "daddy". (historical criticism) After all nothing was written till after the destruction of the temple, and quoting was not popular in their culture, assigning ones own words to a popular figure from the past was.

How do you pick and choose what is from Jesus and what is not?
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/11/2011 4:01:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Eternal damnation according to my religion is knowing that you could have done better. When you die knowing that if you did x,y and z you could have lived in the presence of God.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/11/2011 5:27:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 4:01:16 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Eternal damnation according to my religion is knowing that you could have done better. When you die knowing that if you did x,y and z you could have lived in the presence of God.

But all men are gods, don't you meant Almighty Father?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/12/2011 4:36:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
Discuss
You've offered little to discuss that has not already been argued.

Nonetheless, whether Hell is eternal or not does not bother me. I think either eternal or temporary, it is justified. To me, eternal Hell and being there forever suits people like Hitler. He made millions of lives be lost, forever.

I think that Hell could very well be temporary. The way it is described in my religion is as something that lasts "for ages." Paradise is described as "a reward that will not be cut off," while no such description if made for Hell. However, it is mentioned that people of Hell will remain there forever.

This means that (a) Hell itself will not last for endless times, and (b) the people of Hell will remain therein forever (i.e., as long as Hell itself lasts). I think the same case can be made for the Bible.
Mr.Infidel
Posts: 300
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12/12/2011 6:13:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 4:36:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
Discuss
You've offered little to discuss that has not already been argued.

Nonetheless, whether Hell is eternal or not does not bother me. I think either eternal or temporary, it is justified. To me, eternal Hell and being there forever suits people like Hitler. He made millions of lives be lost, forever.

I think that Hell could very well be temporary. The way it is described in my religion is as something that lasts "for ages." Paradise is described as "a reward that will not be cut off," while no such description if made for Hell. However, it is mentioned that people of Hell will remain there forever.

This means that (a) Hell itself will not last for endless times, and (b) the people of Hell will remain therein forever (i.e., as long as Hell itself lasts). I think the same case can be made for the Bible.

To an extend, I agree that hell would be a justified punishment for people like Hitler and Pol Pot, though I disagree that it is fair for it to be eternal.

1) If humans are finite, we can only commit finite sins.
2) Humans are finite.
3) Therefore, we can only commit finite sins.

Likewise

1) Infinite punishment for finite sins is unjust.
2) Humans can only commit finite sins.
3) Therefore, an eternal punishment is unjust.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/13/2011 10:34:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 6:13:05 PM, Mr.Infidel wrote:
At 12/12/2011 4:36:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
Discuss
You've offered little to discuss that has not already been argued.

Nonetheless, whether Hell is eternal or not does not bother me. I think either eternal or temporary, it is justified. To me, eternal Hell and being there forever suits people like Hitler. He made millions of lives be lost, forever.

I think that Hell could very well be temporary. The way it is described in my religion is as something that lasts "for ages." Paradise is described as "a reward that will not be cut off," while no such description if made for Hell. However, it is mentioned that people of Hell will remain there forever.

This means that (a) Hell itself will not last for endless times, and (b) the people of Hell will remain therein forever (i.e., as long as Hell itself lasts). I think the same case can be made for the Bible.

To an extend, I agree that hell would be a justified punishment for people like Hitler and Pol Pot, though I disagree that it is fair for it to be eternal.

1) If humans are finite, we can only commit finite sins.
2) Humans are finite.
3) Therefore, we can only commit finite sins.
The problem is the first premise. Are you saying that our ability to commit sins is finite? Or, are you saying that the consequencesof our sins are finite? If the latter, you are wrong. Murdering someone comes with infiniteconsequences; you can never practically regret such an act.
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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12/13/2011 10:36:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 5:01:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
At 12/10/2011 2:01:29 PM, epicuriousluxurious wrote:
After reading

http://www.tentmaker.org...

and

http://www.tentmaker.org...

I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as eternal damnation. It is incorrect biblically, logically, and historically. If anyone wants to prove me wrong, he/she must take a look at these both of these links. If anyone can prove me wrong, go ahead. If anyone has more than fifty years of experience in studying greek/hebrew words as the authors in the links that I presented, and can come to conclusion that Hell is real and is eternal, then show me. I believe God is loving and he will save all men. I hope the best for all of you.

Epicuriousluxurious original thread, moved from debate.org to religion.

Discuss

This coming from someone who has never seen or heard an evil entity or spirit from a parallel universe. You make me laugh.