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The problem of hell (and heaven.)

lotus_flower
Posts: 454
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12/16/2011 11:21:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is one of the issues that has caused me to denounce Christianity, and many other faiths that teach the doctrine of eternal hell. So, with out further ado, here is the argument in a nut shell:
Let's say, for arguments sake, that I found some reason to accept Jesus, and I went to heaven after I died. What is, then, my mindset? There are still so many innocent people in hell! Gandhi, Buddha, Andrew Carnegie, the majority of America's founding fathers, etc. So, if I don't care about those people, do I really deserve to be in heaven? If GOD made it so that I didn't know, why is he so ruthless? and if for some reason I viewed it as deserved punishment, then I would have become something I have much disdain for now, and it is something I don't want to be...
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/16/2011 11:37:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
you don't understand Christianity, the founding fathers where christian btw. Also not believing in god doesn't mean hell, because I read a book by a pastor that said you can be an atheist and go to Heaven, because all can be forgiven. Ghanian lived by gods principles, but didn't believe in god, and that is forgivable if you are a good person. Also Jewish people can go to heaven, and their not christian.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
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12/16/2011 11:49:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:37:16 AM, 16kadams wrote:
you don't understand Christianity, the founding fathers where christian btw.
Actually, that is a common lie from Christian Revisionists. prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists. As far as me "not understanding christianity", I understand it well enough. I was a christian for 13 years.
Also not believing in god doesn't mean hell, because I read a book by a pastor that said you can be an atheist and go to Heaven, because all can be forgiven.
well, that pastor obviously wan't a biblicist. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Ghandi lived by gods principles, but didn't believe in god, and that is forgivable if you are a good person. Also Jewish people can go to heaven, and their not christian.
Ghandi was actually born a Hindu in 1869 and practiced Hinduism all his life, so he believed in MANY gods.
I don't know where you are getting the Jew thing from, but whatever.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/16/2011 11:56:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:49:33 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 12/16/2011 11:37:16 AM, 16kadams wrote:
you don't understand Christianity, the founding fathers where christian btw.
Actually, that is a common lie from Christian Revisionists. prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists. As far as me "not understanding christianity", I understand it well enough. I was a christian for 13 years.
Also not believing in god doesn't mean hell, because I read a book by a pastor that said you can be an atheist and go to Heaven, because all can be forgiven.
well, that pastor obviously wan't a biblicist. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Ghandi lived by gods principles, but didn't believe in god, and that is forgivable if you are a good person. Also Jewish people can go to heaven, and their not christian.
Ghandi was actually born a Hindu in 1869 and practiced Hinduism all his life, so he believed in MANY gods.
I don't know where you are getting the Jew thing from, but whatever.

odd...thanks for the education
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
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12/16/2011 11:59:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:56:55 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 12/16/2011 11:49:33 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 12/16/2011 11:37:16 AM, 16kadams wrote:
you don't understand Christianity, the founding fathers where christian btw.
Actually, that is a common lie from Christian Revisionists. prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists. As far as me "not understanding christianity", I understand it well enough. I was a christian for 13 years.
Also not believing in god doesn't mean hell, because I read a book by a pastor that said you can be an atheist and go to Heaven, because all can be forgiven.
well, that pastor obviously wan't a biblicist. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Ghandi lived by gods principles, but didn't believe in god, and that is forgivable if you are a good person. Also Jewish people can go to heaven, and their not christian.
Ghandi was actually born a Hindu in 1869 and practiced Hinduism all his life, so he believed in MANY gods.
I don't know where you are getting the Jew thing from, but whatever.

odd...thanks for the education

anytime. lol your sig. reminded me of my favorite quote: "I think that gay marriage should be between a man and a woman" - Arnold schwarzenegger
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/16/2011 12:08:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:21:10 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
This is one of the issues that has caused me to denounce Christianity, and many other faiths that teach the doctrine of eternal hell. So, with out further ado, here is the argument in a nut shell:
Let's say, for arguments sake, that I found some reason to accept Jesus, and I went to heaven after I died. What is, then, my mindset? There are still so many innocent people in hell! Gandhi, Buddha, Andrew Carnegie, the majority of America's founding fathers, etc. So, if I don't care about those people, do I really deserve to be in heaven? If GOD made it so that I didn't know, why is he so ruthless? and if for some reason I viewed it as deserved punishment, then I would have become something I have much disdain for now, and it is something I don't want to be...

The vast majority of Christianity recognizes the intermediate state/purgatory.
Only a couple of sects of Protestantism do not.

This is the place people who were less than perfectly sold out for Holiness go to before Heaven.
It is the place for non-Christians.

Hell is for those who reject God outright after meeting him or those who reject the moral conscious given by God to them.

This is the Catholic, Anglican, Episcopalian, Partiarichal/Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, etc... (basically 2.5 Billion + of the 3 Billion Christians.

What denomination were you in for 13 years? It sounds like you rejecting Christianity due to a minority teaching, that was a "protestanism" added to church teachings after Luther's ranting.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/16/2011 12:17:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:37:16 AM, 16kadams wrote:
you don't understand Christianity, the founding fathers where christian btw. Also not believing in god doesn't mean hell, because I read a book by a pastor that said you can be an atheist and go to Heaven, because all can be forgiven. Ghanian lived by gods principles, but didn't believe in god, and that is forgivable if you are a good person. Also Jewish people can go to heaven, and their not christian.

LOL, well if a pastor said it...
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/16/2011 12:57:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If this is where your belief is planted, you are on shaky ground. Your intentions must be pure.

Only then can you partake of the cosmic burrito.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
RaynePenbar
Posts: 4
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12/17/2011 8:14:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:21:10 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
This is one of the issues that has caused me to denounce Christianity, and many other faiths that teach the doctrine of eternal hell. So, with out further ado, here is the argument in a nut shell:
Let's say, for arguments sake, that I found some reason to accept Jesus, and I went to heaven after I died. What is, then, my mindset? There are still so many innocent people in hell! Gandhi, Buddha, Andrew Carnegie, the majority of America's founding fathers, etc. So, if I don't care about those people, do I really deserve to be in heaven? If GOD made it so that I didn't know, why is he so ruthless? and if for some reason I viewed it as deserved punishment, then I would have become something I have much disdain for now, and it is something I don't want to be...

Really, I believe you're thinking mostly of Catholicism. I was raised Catholic - I'm not one now though - and I didn't, and still don't, believe in the "eternal Hell" argument for anyone who didn't blindly accept what the preacher at the podium said. To be honest, I think that if someone's a good person, they will be accepted into whatever "paradise" is waiting at the end of our lives.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/17/2011 8:29:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:21:10 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
This is one of the issues that has caused me to denounce Christianity, and many other faiths that teach the doctrine of eternal hell. So, with out further ado, here is the argument in a nut shell:
Let's say, for arguments sake, that I found some reason to accept Jesus, and I went to heaven after I died. What is, then, my mindset? There are still so many innocent people in hell! Gandhi, Buddha, Andrew Carnegie, the majority of America's founding fathers, etc. So, if I don't care about those people, do I really deserve to be in heaven? If GOD made it so that I didn't know, why is he so ruthless? and if for some reason I viewed it as deserved punishment, then I would have become something I have much disdain for now, and it is something I don't want to be...

That was one of my big issues with religion also, I just did not understand the concept. Why would God create all of us, just to send us to hell? I thought he loved all his children? It makes no sense to me, that is what is great about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe in the kingdoms of glory.

Read here about Kingdoms of Glory:
http://lds.org...

Alma 11:42-45
42 Now, there is a death which is called a temporal death; and the death of Christ shall loose the bands of this temporal death, that all shall be raised from this temporal death.

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is cone Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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12/17/2011 11:19:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Firstly, Inclusivist philosophies sort out the type of issue of 'Gandhi in hell' style problems. Do research into these sort of things (try 'inclusivism' in google for example) before making rash conclusions.

Also, you don't have to assume a traditional interpretation of Hell - http://www.debate.org...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/18/2011 6:58:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 11:19:07 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Firstly, Inclusivist philosophies sort out the type of issue of 'Gandhi in hell' style problems. Do research into these sort of things (try 'inclusivism' in google for example) before making rash conclusions.

Also, you don't have to assume a traditional interpretation of Hell - http://www.debate.org...

I disagree with your claim that the traditional interpretation of Hell should not be assumed by the OP.

Any belief system should be merited by a core tenent held by the majority, and we do mean the vast majority, 95% to be generous, when it concerns Hell.

Unless you believe the Holy Spirit would fail to teach the majority of His faithful improperly as cited in the debate.