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Crisis of conscience

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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12/17/2011 3:00:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've tried very hard to live my life along certain faith based principles; as I've found that to yield greater personal happiness. I've ranted here before about the merits of humility and related values as a means to a favorable end.

Although i have always suspected there to be a down side to this, i have never felt it in such real and material ways since yesterday.

In business i am ethical, and refuse to participate in dishonest sales techniques, and have brought my values to the front of how i deal with people, both internally at my company, and externally with my customers. The net result has been me garnering a very high level of respect among my peers, management, and those customers who have me as their account exec - but....my advancement has been hindered. Recently, in that position that i went for, the person who got it is someone that i trained, and spoke on his behalf crediting his merit to the company, someone who doesn't quite share my values and is all about self seeking at the expense of others. My competition presents its products in such a way that their profit is hidden and will gouge their clients when they cannot see it; truly unscrupulous behavior that i couldn't really engage in.

So now i am thinking, is it possible for me to abandon my principles, my values, so that i can advance myself further. Should i abandon these principles for the segment of business in my life? Ironically enough, had i got that job, a significant amount of the increased salary would have been given to a poor family in Nicaragua.

I honestly don't know that i can change my behavior in such a way that i am more ruthless and cutthroat and frankly dishonest. It has been important to me to carry my values into all my affairs, but now i am wondering if in business it just is a major hindrance.

I have experienced the concept that 'no good deed goes unpunished' before, but recently it seems to be a theme of my life, and feel like I've just been very stupid by putting myself at such a disadvantage by playing along rules that others do not. Is my faith something that needs to permeate my life at every turn?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
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12/17/2011 3:16:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The only business bonus you get for being true to your faith is if your clients recognize it as a plus. You need to ask if you are being moral for them or for yourself. If it is for yourself, then you know you can't be fulfilled by trading morals for $.

If for others, then just evaluate whether it is efficient to continue that route.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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12/17/2011 5:03:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 3:00:07 AM, innomen wrote:
Is my faith something that needs to permeate my life at every turn?

I think that is the epitome of faith. Without action, it's just an idea.

It's easy to say and hard to do, but sticking to standards that you have set for yourself is the only thing that will keep you standing long -term.

If you are feeling defeated, think about the good consequences that come from your actions, (what it is that you get out of what you do- is there something more than the money and success?) and focus on finding more ways to bring that into your life. the money & success will follow if you are being fulfilled in other ways.

Well again, it's easier said than done but you are an intelligent man. you will figure out a way to get what you desire and stay true to yourself :)
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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12/17/2011 6:04:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You should do what best suits you and fvck everything else.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/17/2011 7:14:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 3:00:07 AM, innomen wrote:
I've tried very hard to live my life along certain faith based principles; as I've found that to yield greater personal happiness. I've ranted here before about the merits of humility and related values as a means to a favorable end.

Although i have always suspected there to be a down side to this, i have never felt it in such real and material ways since yesterday.

In business i am ethical, and refuse to participate in dishonest sales techniques, and have brought my values to the front of how i deal with people, both internally at my company, and externally with my customers. The net result has been me garnering a very high level of respect among my peers, management, and those customers who have me as their account exec - but....my advancement has been hindered. Recently, in that position that i went for, the person who got it is someone that i trained, and spoke on his behalf crediting his merit to the company, someone who doesn't quite share my values and is all about self seeking at the expense of others. My competition presents its products in such a way that their profit is hidden and will gouge their clients when they cannot see it; truly unscrupulous behavior that i couldn't really engage in.

So now i am thinking, is it possible for me to abandon my principles, my values, so that i can advance myself further. Should i abandon these principles for the segment of business in my life? Ironically enough, had i got that job, a significant amount of the increased salary would have been given to a poor family in Nicaragua.

I honestly don't know that i can change my behavior in such a way that i am more ruthless and cutthroat and frankly dishonest. It has been important to me to carry my values into all my affairs, but now i am wondering if in business it just is a major hindrance.

I have experienced the concept that 'no good deed goes unpunished' before, but recently it seems to be a theme of my life, and feel like I've just been very stupid by putting myself at such a disadvantage by playing along rules that others do not. Is my faith something that needs to permeate my life at every turn?

That is the problem with principles. They are only principles if, when they re applied because they are the right thing, there are consequences from society. If they're were not they are just suggestions. Having said that, pointing out total costs to the consumer is ethical. Talking about value over short term gain is ethical.

Eg. One of the best pianos made used to be a Steinway. They cost, retail, up to 75K. There were cheaper pianos available, and they were cheaper for a reason.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/17/2011 8:06:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
All of this comes down to thinking that going somewhere through ruthless deceit is advancement. To me it's quite the opposite. Helping others, and they using your help against you somehow - that's common. After all, I think they end up using it against themselves.

The part of not being able to give more support to a poor family is sad. However, think of it another way. Is that maybe not a lesser evil, considering you might end up deceiving too much and too many?

Remember that one wrong step often leads to many. Could you assure yourself that your change of principles would just remain within your business life? Could you assure yourself that in a matter of years, you won't behave completely negatively toward others, not to mention yourself?

Stick to your principles. People who constantly deceive others also deceive themselves. Their lives are filled with trouble.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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12/17/2011 9:17:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 8:06:52 AM, Mirza wrote:
All of this comes down to thinking that going somewhere through ruthless deceit is advancement. To me it's quite the opposite. Helping others, and they using your help against you somehow - that's common. After all, I think they end up using it against themselves.

The part of not being able to give more support to a poor family is sad. However, think of it another way. Is that maybe not a lesser evil, considering you might end up deceiving too much and too many?

Remember that one wrong step often leads to many. Could you assure yourself that your change of principles would just remain within your business life? Could you assure yourself that in a matter of years, you won't behave completely negatively toward others, not to mention yourself?

Stick to your principles. People who constantly deceive others also deceive themselves. Their lives are filled with trouble.

That's actually an excellent point. Am i able to objectify my clients and colleagues and still maintain my values in my personal life? As many here may have noticed i tend to bring who i am into everything that i do, and don't have much talent for being fake, although I am able to pull it off when necessary.

I know i am dealing with a resentment that's pretty strong at the moment, and it will dissipate as time goes on, but i am legitimately confused as to why i bother working on living according to certain principles, to what end, for what purpose?

I'm not someone who fears hell should i not act in a certain way, nor do i necessarily expect to be rewarded, but rather have thought that living along a code of ethics would create a happier person, and i am unsure if that's true.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/17/2011 9:18:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 9:17:17 AM, innomen wrote:
At 12/17/2011 8:06:52 AM, Mirza wrote:
All of this comes down to thinking that going somewhere through ruthless deceit is advancement. To me it's quite the opposite. Helping others, and they using your help against you somehow - that's common. After all, I think they end up using it against themselves.

The part of not being able to give more support to a poor family is sad. However, think of it another way. Is that maybe not a lesser evil, considering you might end up deceiving too much and too many?

Remember that one wrong step often leads to many. Could you assure yourself that your change of principles would just remain within your business life? Could you assure yourself that in a matter of years, you won't behave completely negatively toward others, not to mention yourself?

Stick to your principles. People who constantly deceive others also deceive themselves. Their lives are filled with trouble.

That's actually an excellent point. Am i able to objectify my clients and colleagues and still maintain my values in my personal life? As many here may have noticed i tend to bring who i am into everything that i do, and don't have much talent for being fake, although I am able to pull it off when necessary.

I know i am dealing with a resentment that's pretty strong at the moment, and it will dissipate as time goes on, but i am legitimately confused as to why i bother working on living according to certain principles, to what end, for what purpose?

I'm not someone who fears hell should i not act in a certain way, nor do i necessarily expect to be rewarded, but rather have thought that living along a code of ethics would create a happier person, and i am unsure if that's true.

God sees all and you don't want to do something that god will hold you accountable for. Money isn't everything, remember do what god would want you to do.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/17/2011 9:37:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
As long as your client doesn't feel screwed over, you are not screwing him/her over. I don't know what you do, but that is like salesmen 101.

I also don't know what you mean by being dishonest. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that anyone could be honest and Catholic at the same time.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/17/2011 9:41:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 9:37:24 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As long as your client doesn't feel screwed over, you are not screwing him/her over. I don't know what you do, but that is like salesmen 101.

I also don't know what you mean by being dishonest. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that anyone could be honest and Catholic at the same time.

Your client may not know you are taking advantage of them, but god will and it is god that matters.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/17/2011 9:58:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God doesn't give a rat's arse. Everyone takes advantage of other people, no matter how pretentious they are with their righteousness.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/17/2011 10:15:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 9:58:32 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God doesn't give a rat's arse. Everyone takes advantage of other people, no matter how pretentious they are with their righteousness.

See do you want to turn out to be like this guy with no sense of right and wrong and having no morals. He is on a path to hell and I will pray that he finds direction through Jesus.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/17/2011 3:49:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 10:15:46 AM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/17/2011 9:58:32 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God doesn't give a rat's arse. Everyone takes advantage of other people, no matter how pretentious they are with their righteousness.

See do you want to turn out to be like this guy with no sense of right and wrong and having no morals. He is on a path to hell and I will pray that he finds direction through Jesus.

Youre telling me that youve never done wrong in your life?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/17/2011 3:56:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/17/2011 9:17:17 AM, innomen wrote:
At 12/17/2011 8:06:52 AM, Mirza wrote:
All of this comes down to thinking that going somewhere through ruthless deceit is advancement. To me it's quite the opposite. Helping others, and they using your help against you somehow - that's common. After all, I think they end up using it against themselves.

The part of not being able to give more support to a poor family is sad. However, think of it another way. Is that maybe not a lesser evil, considering you might end up deceiving too much and too many?

Remember that one wrong step often leads to many. Could you assure yourself that your change of principles would just remain within your business life? Could you assure yourself that in a matter of years, you won't behave completely negatively toward others, not to mention yourself?

Stick to your principles. People who constantly deceive others also deceive themselves. Their lives are filled with trouble.

That's actually an excellent point. Am i able to objectify my clients and colleagues and still maintain my values in my personal life? As many here may have noticed i tend to bring who i am into everything that i do, and don't have much talent for being fake, although I am able to pull it off when necessary.

I know i am dealing with a resentment that's pretty strong at the moment, and it will dissipate as time goes on, but i am legitimately confused as to why i bother working on living according to certain principles, to what end, for what purpose?

I'm not someone who fears hell should i not act in a certain way, nor do i necessarily expect to be rewarded, but rather have thought that living along a code of ethics would create a happier person, and i am unsure if that's true.
One thing that's certain about you is that you're not selfish. You're asking about the purpose of having good principles. Look at this man. He has had a bad influence on you, right? He made you consider changing your principles so that you become a less good person toward others, but better toward yourself (and that's not necessarily true).

To me, the answer is pretty simple. If you wish, you can go along his path and gamble your happiness for the sake of achieving more good for yourself - and yourself only. Or, you can let the temptation go and put yourself down, but be a good influence for others. That man making you confused is clear proof that when others wrong, they make others follow their ways. Do you want yourself to be one of those who are bad examples for others to follow?

If everyone thought the way that man does, then very few of us would be influenced to do good. That's including you. If you become like him, you might achieve more success (whatever you mean by that; I think you're wealthy in spiritual goods), but you'll risk influencing others to be like you, and ad infinitum. Does that make the world better? Nope.