Total Posts:73|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Satan in Christianity

ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2009 8:05:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
In the Christian view, Satan is a necessity because he represents the evil, the sin, of the world. Without Satan, there is no contrast and therefore no meaningful reason for people to follow the laws of God. Satan is also the poster child of what happens if you rebel against God. It serves as an effective way to keep people in check; set the story, set the standard and then set the punishment - you have people in your hand.

It has always been a question as to why God let Satan rebel and etc., though you will usually hear Christians respond with, "God did cast him to Hell, you know" and what I stated above.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2009 9:02:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?

Satan is kind of like God's wing man. He makes sure the big guy only hooks up with the finest followers. Read the Book of Job. God's most loyal follower gets rewarded with the death of his family, loss of his fortune, and disease because Satan suspected the follower, Job, had some doubts about their relationship. The book tries to argue that Satan was right by having Job rant against God at the end of the book. The irony is that Job had every right to renounce God at that point. It would be like one lover testing the other lover's resolve by making the relationship abusive. The rationale for still worshiping God is that he 's the only choice you get ... you can choose God, and be abused, or not, and be abused and maybe smitten. Some deal.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2009 7:11:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?

Like many of the 'big' questions in Christian theology, this comes down to the question of Free Will.
God cannot create a truly free being unless that being has a choice to do what is otherwise expected of it.
Satan was given this job, to tempt mankind.. Gods 'Masterpiece'.

Satan. A Speculation.
In order for satan to 'know' what to tempt us with, he would have had to have eaten the 'fruit of the knowledge of good and evil'. (this 'fruit' is symbolic as we are talking about a spiritual realm)
I believe that when God gave satan the fruit He warned him that once he had eaten it he would come to believe that he could beat God, become God.. In short he would be deluded.
So God warned satan that he had to trust His Word that he could never beat God, never be God.
When satan did gain this 'knowledge of good and evil' he did indeed believe that he could overthrow God:

Isaiah 14:12-15 (New King James Version)

The Fall of Lucifer
12 " How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.


If God were to take this choice, this power, back, then how would He have given satan (or any other Angel) free will in any real sense?
So I believe satan was supposed to use this 'knowledge' to tempt mankind.. instead he tempted Eve into eating the forbidden fruit which God had warned them would result in death.
Again, it came down to a choice of who to trust.. God or satan.
When Adam chose satans word over Gods Word he made satan the 'god of this world'.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (New King James Version)
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.


I believe that satan believes he can still beat God BUT that he is really, unwittingly, still working for God in the sense that Gods speciality, if you like, is to take the evil things of this world (like crucifixion) and use them for His own Glory and His own Kingdom.
Adams disobedience to Gods Word got us into this mess and Jesus Christs ABSOLUTE obedience, even to a shameful death on a cross, 'broke the curse'.
God can even use death to beat death.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (New King James Version)
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


God certainly is going 'remove satan from existence'.. But this thing has to be played out to the end. God wants us to see exactly what the 'logical conclusion' of choosing satans word over His really IS.

Revelation 20:10 (New King James Version)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


I understand if this has raised more questions than it has answered so please feel free to ask anything you wish.
The Cross.. the Cross.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2009 1:38:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
How interesting, I have just issued a debate challenge on the issue of Christian interpretation of what the Bible says about 'Satan'.

The Isaiah passage quoted in DATC's copypasta above is quoted (as it so often is) completely out of context. The passage is not talking about Satan or The Devil but the king of Babylonia where the Jews were exiled at the time of Isaiah.

This is the only time the word Lucifer appears in the Bible and only in the king James version. It means light bringer which is another way of describing the morning star. Jesus is called the morning star in Revelations.

Satan means adversary and in the old testament Satan is an adversary of man but a loyal servant of God, God sends him out to test and tempt man. The serpent is never identified with Satan in the Bible.
The Devil is a synonym for Satan in the New Testament but devils (diabolos) are demons.
The popular Christian conception of Satan is all based on 'official' interpretations of scripture by church authorities and doesn't make much sense if you actually read the Bible and believe it is the inerrant word of God.

Hopefully, my debate will get underway soon but my first round is up now which should give a general idea of what I'm going on about.

http://www.debate.org...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2009 2:07:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/19/2009 1:38:41 PM, feverish wrote:
How interesting, I have just issued a debate challenge on the issue of Christian interpretation of what the Bible says about 'Satan'.

The Isaiah passage quoted in DATC's copypasta above is quoted (as it so often is) completely out of context. The passage is not talking about Satan or The Devil but the king of Babylonia where the Jews were exiled at the time of Isaiah.

This is the only time the word Lucifer appears in the Bible and only in the king James version. It means light bringer which is another way of describing the morning star. Jesus is called the morning star in Revelations.

Satan means adversary and in the old testament Satan is an adversary of man but a loyal servant of God, God sends him out to test and tempt man. The serpent is never identified with Satan in the Bible.
The Devil is a synonym for Satan in the New Testament but devils (diabolos) are demons.
The popular Christian conception of Satan is all based on 'official' interpretations of scripture by church authorities and doesn't make much sense if you actually read the Bible and believe it is the inerrant word of God.

Hopefully, my debate will get underway soon but my first round is up now which should give a general idea of what I'm going on about.

http://www.debate.org...

Mmm.. Let's see how well you do against the mormon (he's on satans side anyway) and then I'll show you all the relevant passages where Jesus Christ tells us exactly what is what.
And for your own good do not keep repeating that Christ and satan are one.

Matthew 12:24-30 (New King James Version)
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[a] the ruler of the demons."
25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

The Cross.. the Cross.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2009 4:06:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/19/2009 2:07:37 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Mmm.. Let's see how well you do against the mormon (he's on satans side anyway) and then I'll show you all the relevant passages where Jesus Christ tells us exactly what is what.
And for your own good do not keep repeating that Christ and satan are one.

Hi DATC thanks for your charming response, on a side note I've noticed you threatening to report members of the site and "for your own good" I suggest you watch out for "implied threats" (see Terms & conditions) in your own posts.

Also I think you should be careful about "religious slurs" ; saying Mormons are satanists must be pretty offensive to them, not to mention blasphemous.

I'm not the type to report other users myself but you should probably watch your back around here.

I certainly try to avoid offending people unnecessarily myself and sincerely apologise if this non-believer's interest in the Bible offends you personally.

On topic, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that Jesus and Lucifer were one, on the contrary I believe Jesus was a man and Lucifer is a myth.
I was saying that Satan, unlike Jesus and the King of Babylonia is never referred to as Morning Star (Lucifer) in the Bible, if you read something blasphemous into that then I'm sorry.

The Mathew quote is another fine example of presenting scripture out of context, this passage is Jesus responding to allegations that he (Jesus) is possessed by Beelzebul or Beelzebub a 'chief' demon, not Satan or Lucifer. The word satan appears in only one of the five parables here and in the Greek it is "a satan" rather than "Satan". Jesus is giving examples of how he could not be a demon against demons or an adversary against another adversary. There is no identification of a Satanic kingdom here.

Peace.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/20/2009 2:50:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/19/2009 4:06:13 PM, feverish wrote:
At 5/19/2009 2:07:37 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Mmm.. Let's see how well you do against the mormon (he's on satans side anyway) and then I'll show you all the relevant passages where Jesus Christ tells us exactly what is what.
And for your own good do not keep repeating that Christ and satan are one.


Hi DATC thanks for your charming response, on a side note I've noticed you threatening to report members of the site and "for your own good" I suggest you watch out for "implied threats" (see Terms & conditions) in your own posts.
You completely misunderstand the nature of my threat..'For your own good' meant 'you should fear God' (nothing to do with DDO at all) or at the very least have a 'just in case' attitude.
Also I think you should be careful about "religious slurs" ; saying Mormons are satanists must be pretty offensive to them, not to mention blasphemous.
Well just in case there is any doubt let me reiterate that mormonism is an HERETICAL CULT, an affront to the name of Jesus Christ.
Get one thing extremely clear in your mind, I care about nothing else but standing before Jesus Christ on judgement day. Mormonism is blasphemous.
I'm not the type to report other users myself but you should probably watch your back around here.
No, you really have to be pretty dumb to get yourself banned so your own implied threats matter not a jot.
I certainly try to avoid offending people unnecessarily myself and sincerely apologise if this non-believer's interest in the Bible offends you personally.
Yeah, you're a great guy!
On topic, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that Jesus and Lucifer were one, on the contrary I believe Jesus was a man and Lucifer is a myth.
I was saying that Satan, unlike Jesus and the King of Babylonia is never referred to as Morning Star (Lucifer) in the Bible, if you read something blasphemous into that then I'm sorry.
Not blasphemous, just confused. You look for contradiction and you find it.
The Mathew quote is another fine example of presenting scripture out of context, this passage is Jesus responding to allegations that he (Jesus) is possessed by Beelzebul or Beelzebub a 'chief' demon, not Satan or Lucifer. The word satan appears in only one of the five parables here and in the Greek it is "a satan" rather than "Satan". Jesus is giving examples of how he could not be a demon against demons or an adversary against another adversary. There is no identification of a Satanic kingdom here.
What is satan if not the chief demon? When you nit pick like this you expose yourself as intellectually dishonest.
Peace.
WAR.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/20/2009 7:51:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
http://news.bbc.co.uk...

I think those church leaders count as Satan, or at least Satan-like. Maybe Satan is vital to Christianity because it is an easy way for people like that to get away with horrible crimes like molestation.

Damn, where is Nunc when you need her.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/20/2009 1:11:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/20/2009 7:51:29 AM, Volkov wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk...

I think those church leaders count as Satan, or at least Satan-like. Maybe Satan is vital to Christianity because it is an easy way for people like that to get away with horrible crimes like molestation.

Damn, where is Nunc when you need her.

People who molest children etc are atheists in the true sense of the word (compared to you lot who just say it to be fashionable) because they would never do such things if you even suspected there was a God.

John 3:19 (New King James Version)
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The Cross.. the Cross.
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/20/2009 9:44:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/20/2009 1:11:38 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/20/2009 7:51:29 AM, Volkov wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk...

I think those church leaders count as Satan, or at least Satan-like. Maybe Satan is vital to Christianity because it is an easy way for people like that to get away with horrible crimes like molestation.

Damn, where is Nunc when you need her.

People who molest children etc are atheists in the true sense of the word (compared to you lot who just say it to be fashionable)"

Yeah, atheist chic is the newest craze that's sweeping the nation. You can have your hula-hoops and hypercolor t-shirts, I'll win my popularity through admitting there is not enough evidence to warrant belief in a deity.

because they would never do such things if you even suspected there was a God.

I wouldn't do it even though I suspect there isn't a God. There's something about inflicting pain and suffering on other creatures which doesn't sit right with me, and it's got nothing to do with an imaginary man watching me. Believe it or not!

Those priests don't even know what they believe any more.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2009 8:02:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/20/2009 9:44:25 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 5/20/2009 1:11:38 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/20/2009 7:51:29 AM, Volkov wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk...

I think those church leaders count as Satan, or at least Satan-like. Maybe Satan is vital to Christianity because it is an easy way for people like that to get away with horrible crimes like molestation.

Damn, where is Nunc when you need her.

People who molest children etc are atheists in the true sense of the word (compared to you lot who just say it to be fashionable)"

Yeah, atheist chic is the newest craze that's sweeping the nation. You can have your hula-hoops and hypercolor t-shirts, I'll win my popularity through admitting there is not enough evidence to warrant belief in a deity.
But there's no denying that there is a ground swell of interest in darwinism and a back lash against organised religion is there?
because they would never do such things if you even suspected there was a God.

I wouldn't do it even though I suspect there isn't a God. There's something about inflicting pain and suffering on other creatures which doesn't sit right with me, and it's got nothing to do with an imaginary man watching me. Believe it or not!
I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.
Those priests don't even know what they believe any more.
Belief and obedience are inseperable. We always act out of our beliefs.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)

30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2009 10:51:57 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/21/2009 8:02:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
But there's no denying that there is a ground swell of interest in darwinism and a back lash against organised religion is there?

Do you ever wonder why when stories like this surface?

http://www.cbc.ca...

Maybe if organized religion was a little less prone to hiding sexual abuse and giving excuses to terrorist attacks like 9/11 (then blaming the ACLU for it), there would not be as much backlash.
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2009 4:42:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
But there's no denying that there is a ground swell of interest in darwinism and a back lash against organised religion is there?

No, there's no denying that at all. But if you think people make decisions like this based on what's "cool" at the time, you're more shallow than any atheist I've ever met. I'm not sure what sort of person you were before you became born-again, but I don't know any non-believer who has made that decision based on anything other than what logically appeals to them. Indeed, most people aren't even hard-nosed atheists (there CAN'T be a god), most people are just non-believers; out of the thousands of religions and gods which have been written about in the past 10,000 years, you choose to believe in one while we choose to believe zero. Not a big difference really. As somebody has said, if you can understand why you don't believe in Zeus, maybe you can start to understand why the rest of the world is turning away from all other religions.

I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.

Not all men who went to Vietnam turned into indiscriminate murderers and child rapists. I like to think I'd be one of the ones who abstained from it, and if you can't understand that it's an indictment of your nature, not mine. I don't even like to see stuff like that on TV.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2009 4:46:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/21/2009 4:42:12 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
But there's no denying that there is a ground swell of interest in darwinism and a back lash against organised religion is there?

No, there's no denying that at all. But if you think people make decisions like this based on what's "cool" at the time, you're more shallow than any atheist I've ever met. I'm not sure what sort of person you were before you became born-again, but I don't know any non-believer who has made that decision based on anything other than what logically appeals to them. Indeed, most people aren't even hard-nosed atheists (there CAN'T be a god), most people are just non-believers; out of the thousands of religions and gods which have been written about in the past 10,000 years, you choose to believe in one while we choose to believe zero. Not a big difference really. As somebody has said, if you can understand why you don't believe in Zeus, maybe you can start to understand why the rest of the world is turning away from all other religions.

The universe is only 6000 years old so there's no 10,000.
You are a child of your time.. there is no way you would be an atheist had you been born 200 years ago.
I do not believe Jesus Christ to be the ONLY truth because of logic.. I believe it because He told me Himself, personally.

I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.

Not all men who went to Vietnam turned into indiscriminate murderers and child rapists. I like to think I'd be one of the ones who abstained from it, and if you can't understand that it's an indictment of your nature, not mine. I don't even like to see stuff like that on TV.

I'd like to think that too. I wonder how many of the men that did succumb would have said the same? 100%?

John 3:16-17 (New King James Version)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
The Cross.. the Cross.
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2009 4:46:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 4:46:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/21/2009 4:42:12 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
But there's no denying that there is a ground swell of interest in darwinism and a back lash against organised religion is there?

No, there's no denying that at all. But if you think people make decisions like this based on what's "cool" at the time, you're more shallow than any atheist I've ever met. I'm not sure what sort of person you were before you became born-again, but I don't know any non-believer who has made that decision based on anything other than what logically appeals to them. Indeed, most people aren't even hard-nosed atheists (there CAN'T be a god), most people are just non-believers; out of the thousands of religions and gods which have been written about in the past 10,000 years, you choose to believe in one while we choose to believe zero. Not a big difference really. As somebody has said, if you can understand why you don't believe in Zeus, maybe you can start to understand why the rest of the world is turning away from all other religions.

The universe is only 6000 years old so there's no 10,000.

Haha!

You are a child of your time.. there is no way you would be an atheist had you been born 200 years ago.

Excellent, it appears you're starting to understand the subjectivity of belief and its reliance on external factors. There is no way you would be a Christian if you had been born in a non-Christian country. Think about that one for a second. According to your favorite myth, you would burn in hell for eternity simply because you were born in a different country. Pretty silly, huh?

I do not believe Jesus Christ to be the ONLY truth because of logic.. I believe it because He told me Himself, personally.

What did Jesus sound like? Did he speak English? What sort of accent did he have?

You know there are some really great institutions full of people like you DAT, they'd take real good care of you and you'd be with like-minded people. I can send you some brochures if you'd like?

I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.

Not all men who went to Vietnam turned into indiscriminate murderers and child rapists. I like to think I'd be one of the ones who abstained from it, and if you can't understand that it's an indictment of your nature, not mine. I don't even like to see stuff like that on TV.

I'd like to think that too. I wonder how many of the men that did succumb would have said the same? 100%?

It's hard to speculate. Whether it's 100% or 1%, I don't think it proves anything either way. The fact is that not all men confronted with the attrocities of war succumb to those base urges, indeed very few do, and I am quite certain that I would be one of the ones who abstained from it. So just what is your point?
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2009 4:56:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Congratuations... you can restate the problem of evil. How original of you.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/23/2009 7:10:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 4:46:39 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 5/22/2009 4:46:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/21/2009 4:42:12 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
But there's no denying that there is a ground swell of interest in darwinism and a back lash against organised religion is there?

No, there's no denying that at all. But if you think people make decisions like this based on what's "cool" at the time, you're more shallow than any atheist I've ever met. I'm not sure what sort of person you were before you became born-again, but I don't know any non-believer who has made that decision based on anything other than what logically appeals to them. Indeed, most people aren't even hard-nosed atheists (there CAN'T be a god), most people are just non-believers; out of the thousands of religions and gods which have been written about in the past 10,000 years, you choose to believe in one while we choose to believe zero. Not a big difference really. As somebody has said, if you can understand why you don't believe in Zeus, maybe you can start to understand why the rest of the world is turning away from all other religions.

The universe is only 6000 years old so there's no 10,000.

Haha!
2 Peter 3:3 (New King James Version)
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,

You are a child of your time.. there is no way you would be an atheist had you been born 200 years ago.

Excellent, it appears you're starting to understand the subjectivity of belief and its reliance on external factors. There is no way you would be a Christian if you had been born in a non-Christian country. Think about that one for a second. According to your favorite myth, you would burn in hell for eternity simply because you were born in a different country. Pretty silly, huh?
Not at all. God placed me in this place in history, in this family tree, in this country.. If we go any deeper into this we will be lost in a 'back to the future' type paradoxes.
I do not believe Jesus Christ to be the ONLY truth because of logic.. I believe it because He told me Himself, personally.

What did Jesus sound like? Did he speak English? What sort of accent did he have?
*I don't believe you, you're a liar*
You know there are some really great institutions full of people like you DAT, they'd take real good care of you and you'd be with like-minded people. I can send you some brochures if you'd like?
The last refuge of the defeated.. "you're CRAZY!" OR.. I'm right.
I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.

Not all men who went to Vietnam turned into indiscriminate murderers and child rapists. I like to think I'd be one of the ones who abstained from it, and if you can't understand that it's an indictment of your nature, not mine. I don't even like to see stuff like that on TV.

I'd like to think that too. I wonder how many of the men that did succumb would have said the same? 100%?

It's hard to speculate. Whether it's 100% or 1%, I don't think it proves anything either way. The fact is that not all men confronted with the attrocities of war succumb to those base urges, indeed very few do, and I am quite certain that I would be one of the ones who abstained from it. So just what is your point?
My point is that it is not a matter of someone being a 'better' person and so not succumbing to murder/rape etc.. It is a matter of self control (control of those 'base urges') and you have shown that you have precious little of that.

2 Peter 3:4-6 (New King James Version)
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

The Cross.. the Cross.
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/23/2009 5:58:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Not at all. God placed me in this place in history, in this family tree, in this country..

Oh well that's alright then. So long as you're comfy. :D

I do not believe Jesus Christ to be the ONLY truth because of logic.. I believe it because He told me Himself, personally.

What did Jesus sound like? Did he speak English? What sort of accent did he have?
*I don't believe you, you're a liar*

I didn't say I didn't believe you, I think it's quite possible you heard voices in your head. There are institutions full of people who do. I'm obviously just a little curious what Jesus sounds like when he speaks, and while I'm talking to someone who's shared a conversation with him, thought it would be a good time to ask.

The fact that you refuse to answer the simple question, though, does kinda make me think you are lying.

You know there are some really great institutions full of people like you DAT, they'd take real good care of you and you'd be with like-minded people. I can send you some brochures if you'd like?
The last refuge of the defeated.. "you're CRAZY!" OR.. I'm right.

Defeated? I didn't realize this was an argument. But now that you mention it, if somebody came up to you and said King George III was talking to them via telekinesis, you'd think he was a bit of a nut wouldn't you? I'm only working with what you give me, and at this stage it appears your best move would be to a mental institution.

I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.

Not all men who went to Vietnam turned into indiscriminate murderers and child rapists. I like to think I'd be one of the ones who abstained from it, and if you can't understand that it's an indictment of your nature, not mine. I don't even like to see stuff like that on TV.

I'd like to think that too. I wonder how many of the men that did succumb would have said the same? 100%?

It's hard to speculate. Whether it's 100% or 1%, I don't think it proves anything either way. The fact is that not all men confronted with the attrocities of war succumb to those base urges, indeed very few do, and I am quite certain that I would be one of the ones who abstained from it. So just what is your point?
My point is that it is not a matter of someone being a 'better' person and so not succumbing to murder/rape etc.. It is a matter of self control (control of those 'base urges') and you have shown that you have precious little of that.

Haha, you don't even know me. I control my base urges juuuuuuust fine thanks DAT. You worry about your own base urges, it sounds like you are struggling just to refrain from killing people from what you've said here. :/
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/25/2009 2:00:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/23/2009 5:58:14 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
Not at all. God placed me in this place in history, in this family tree, in this country..

Oh well that's alright then. So long as you're comfy. :D

I do not believe Jesus Christ to be the ONLY truth because of logic.. I believe it because He told me Himself, personally.

What did Jesus sound like? Did he speak English? What sort of accent did he have?
*I don't believe you, you're a liar*

I didn't say I didn't believe you, I think it's quite possible you heard voices in your head. There are institutions full of people who do. I'm obviously just a little curious what Jesus sounds like when he speaks, and while I'm talking to someone who's shared a conversation with him, thought it would be a good time to ask.
I'm giving you the gift of your own implications..
The fact that you refuse to answer the simple question, though, does kinda make me think you are lying.
Oh good, you've caught up..
You know there are some really great institutions full of people like you DAT, they'd take real good care of you and you'd be with like-minded people. I can send you some brochures if you'd like?
The last refuge of the defeated.. "you're CRAZY!" OR.. I'm right.

Defeated? I didn't realize this was an argument. But now that you mention it, if somebody came up to you and said King George III was talking to them via telekinesis, you'd think he was a bit of a nut wouldn't you? I'm only working with what you give me, and at this stage it appears your best move would be to a mental institution.
And yours would be repentance.
I hope you never find out what you are capable of. You should read up on what American G.Is got up to in Vietnam.. they ended up loving indiscrimate murder.

Not all men who went to Vietnam turned into indiscriminate murderers and child rapists. I like to think I'd be one of the ones who abstained from it, and if you can't understand that it's an indictment of your nature, not mine. I don't even like to see stuff like that on TV.

I'd like to think that too. I wonder how many of the men that did succumb would have said the same? 100%?

It's hard to speculate. Whether it's 100% or 1%, I don't think it proves anything either way. The fact is that not all men confronted with the attrocities of war succumb to those base urges, indeed very few do, and I am quite certain that I would be one of the ones who abstained from it. So just what is your point?
My point is that it is not a matter of someone being a 'better' person and so not succumbing to murder/rape etc.. It is a matter of self control (control of those 'base urges') and you have shown that you have precious little of that.

Haha, you don't even know me. I control my base urges juuuuuuust fine thanks DAT. You worry about your own base urges, it sounds like you are struggling just to refrain from killing people from what you've said here. :/
You keep hearing just what you want to hear and seeing what you want to see.

Isaiah 42:18
" Hear, you deaf; And look, you blind, that you may see.

The Cross.. the Cross.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/25/2009 8:15:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thanks for the reply DAT. I do have a few more questions now.

1) Satan must have some amount of power, no? He can tempt humans in many places at once, so he's pretty high up there. Why doesn't he make Hell a nicer place? If his goal is to amass followers, why advertise a pit of brimstone and fire? If being greater than God is his goal, he's certainly going about it wrong.

2) About the age of the earth. If we follow the Bible, the Earth is approximately 6k years old. I know that some Biblical figures lived into their 900s. I'm thinking there were at least three of these generations, right? So, even if some died under 900, surely there would have been at least 2,400 years passed on these long lives. That puts us around 1,600-ish BC. Even if there were only 1,800 years of these long-lived people, that puts us in 2800 BC. We have records from actual civilizations back then, from across the world. Wouldn't we have a lot of mention of extremely old people?

3) Finally, on where people are born relating to their religion. I was born in India, and raised a devout Hindu. I was just as set in my beliefs as you are in yours. Because I was raised a Hindu, and all my elders said that Hinduism was the truth, I naturally believed them. This, from your viewpoint, is a ticket straight to Hell. I definitely think that is unfair. Missionaries could have preached to me, but that would not have done anything, because I was raised in that belief system. To me, that seems remarkable unfair. Having created humans, the Christian God should know human nature. Because I was raised a Hindu, any miracle healings I witnessed would have been attributed to my God, not yours. Any evidence you cite would in turn be used by me, to justify my viewpoint.

Thank for your first post!
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2009 9:32:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/25/2009 8:15:03 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
Thanks for the reply DAT. I do have a few more questions now.

1) Satan must have some amount of power, no? He can tempt humans in many places at once, so he's pretty high up there. Why doesn't he make Hell a nicer place? If his goal is to amass followers, why advertise a pit of brimstone and fire? If being greater than God is his goal, he's certainly going about it wrong.
Ok, Satan is not omnipresent, he has demons to do his bidding.
Satan is powerful in the sense that he understands exactly how humans work or how we are made, our desires etc.
BUT he can still only tempt us, we always have a choice. However, as satan very well knows, we become the sum of our choices and we are naturally creatures of habit, so as we fall into sin we can very quickly become 'locked' into it.
John 8:34 (New King James Version)
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

Unless we are absolutely 100% committed to God and His word, satan will outwit us time and again.
Concerning hell, it is not 'satans home' or anything of that nature. God created it especially for satan and his demons.
Satan does not wish for followers in the sense of rewarding people etc, he only wants to destroy us.. to take as many down with him as possible.. he hates us because we are made in Gods image, because we are Gods masterpiece,
Revelation 20:10 (New King James Version)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2) About the age of the earth. If we follow the Bible, the Earth is approximately 6k years old. I know that some Biblical figures lived into their 900s. I'm thinking there were at least three of these generations, right? So, even if some died under 900, surely there would have been at least 2,400 years passed on these long lives. That puts us around 1,600-ish BC. Even if there were only 1,800 years of these long-lived people, that puts us in 2800 BC. We have records from actual civilizations back then, from across the world. Wouldn't we have a lot of mention of extremely old people?
Other than the Bible you mean? As all those early generations were Jews or the fore-fathers of the Jewish nation then perhaps they did not travel far, or disclose their age, I do not believe they appeared 900 years old in the same way people who now reach 120 appear old.
We also have to take into account the flood, so the only records of any kind that would have survived would be from Noah and would have formed the old testament.
It's a good question though and not one I've come across before.
Consider this passage from the O.T:
Genesis 47:8-10 (New International Version)
8 Pharaoh asked him, "How old are you?"
9 And Jacob said to Pharaoh, "The years of my pilgrimage are a hundred and thirty. My years have been few and difficult, and they do not equal the years of the pilgrimage of my fathers." 10 Then Jacob blessed [a] Pharaoh and went out from his presence.

130 and he still had the Pharaohs wife chasing him.
3) Finally, on where people are born relating to their religion. I was born in India, and raised a devout Hindu. I was just as set in my beliefs as you are in yours. Because I was raised a Hindu, and all my elders said that Hinduism was the truth, I naturally believed them. This, from your viewpoint, is a ticket straight to Hell. I definitely think that is unfair. Missionaries could have preached to me, but that would not have done anything, because I was raised in that belief system. To me, that seems remarkable unfair. Having created humans, the Christian God should know human nature. Because I was raised a Hindu, any miracle healings I witnessed would have been attributed to my God, not yours. Any evidence you cite would in turn be used by me, to justify my viewpoint.
Ok, this is a question I've heard many times before and there is no simple answer.
I do believe that God has made provision for people who have not heard the Gospel or were in circumstances as you describe them. The problem begins when people at once seize this idea and use it as a loophole when they know very well Who and what they are rejecting.
Also we have to face the hard fact that God has turned His face away from India for many many generations simply because they have embraced idols and false religion etc.
So you kinda have it backwards I'm afraid.
But God is merciful! My parents actually are missionaries in India and I receive reports of a great revival sweeping that land with many miraculous healings etc.
Thank for your first post!
No, thankyou. I hope this helps.
John 20:27
Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
The Cross.. the Cross.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2009 3:36:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Ok, Satan is not omnipresent, he has demons to do his bidding.
BUT he can still only tempt us, we always have a choice. However, as satan very well knows, we become the sum of our choices and we are naturally creatures of habit, so as we fall into sin we can very quickly become 'locked' into it.

Can Satan's demons only affect the world intangibly?

Other than the Bible you mean? As all those early generations were Jews or the fore-fathers of the Jewish nation then perhaps they did not travel far, or disclose their age, I do not believe they appeared 900 years old in the same way people who now reach 120 appear old.
We also have to take into account the flood, so the only records of any kind that would have survived would be from Noah and would have formed the old testament.
I'm not saying that their beards have to reach their knees, just that if people lived far past 100, there ought to be some record of their lives. Also, were the Jewish the only ones to live that long?

The Mayan calendar extends into 3,114 BC, which is 5,100 years ago. Surely the Mayans would have some mention of these kinds of things?

The problem begins when people at once seize this idea and use it as a loophole when they know very well Who and what they are rejecting.
But the thing is, what of the children who do become so far ingrained in their belief that it is impossible to bring them out of it. We know that the geocentric model of the solar system was very popular. When Copernicus and Galileo dissented, they were scoffed at for the simple reason that the rest of the world believed what their parents told them. Simply telling people accomplished nothing. It took completely empirical proof to convince the world that our solar system is heliocentric. Our natural instinct is to trust our parents. A lot of 'good people' would be sent to hell, simply because they weren't Christian. I know non-Christians who have set up charities, and strive their hardest to better the world.

My younger brother, for example, is in second grade right now. He was raised a Hindu, but because my grandparents did not play a big part in his life, he didn't get the same upbringing as I did. Because of the Christian majority in his school, he is caught in religious limbo, as he is a Hindu who believes that Jesus was real/heaven exist, in addition to his Hindu beliefs. Being a child, his ideas are very malleable.

Also we have to face the hard fact that God has turned His face away from India for many many generations simply because they have embraced idols and false religion etc.
In God turning his face from India, do you mean God has given up?

Second-last question: Being omnipotent, why doesn't God pop onto CNN (seriously), and show his own existence? The thing with most atheists (I'm fairly sure), is that we have no empirical evidence for God's existence. The Bible may be God's word, but we don't know about its accuracy. Just because a book calls itself true and tells us that God exists doesn't mean that it is true/God exists. The mindset of most atheists (and quite a few agnostics) is that we need proof. A rigorous proof. Are we sentenced to damnation simply because we wish for the truth to be verifiable?

I have heard that God wants us to have free will. However, in doing so he is sentencing his own creation to hell, simply because he created some people with their mindset.

Finally, why would God create the Forbidden Fruit in Eden?

Again, thank you for your reply =).
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2009 4:37:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/18/2009 9:02:37 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?

Satan is kind of like God's wing man. He makes sure the big guy only hooks up with the finest followers. Read the Book of Job. God's most loyal follower gets rewarded with the death of his family, loss of his fortune, and disease because Satan suspected the follower, Job, had some doubts about their relationship. The book tries to argue that Satan was right by having Job rant against God at the end of the book. The irony is that Job had every right to renounce God at that point. It would be like one lover testing the other lover's resolve by making the relationship abusive. The rationale for still worshiping God is that he 's the only choice you get ... you can choose God, and be abused, or not, and be abused and maybe smitten. Some deal.

Did you not read the ending where Job's life gets better than it ever was before?
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2009 6:57:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/26/2009 4:37:52 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/18/2009 9:02:37 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?

Satan is kind of like God's wing man. He makes sure the big guy only hooks up with the finest followers. Read the Book of Job. God's most loyal follower gets rewarded with the death of his family, loss of his fortune, and disease because Satan suspected the follower, Job, had some doubts about their relationship. The book tries to argue that Satan was right by having Job rant against God at the end of the book. The irony is that Job had every right to renounce God at that point. It would be like one lover testing the other lover's resolve by making the relationship abusive. The rationale for still worshiping God is that he 's the only choice you get ... you can choose God, and be abused, or not, and be abused and maybe smitten. Some deal.

Did you not read the ending where Job's life gets better than it ever was before?

I'm not too acquainted with Job's story - could you fill me in?
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2009 7:50:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/26/2009 4:37:52 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/18/2009 9:02:37 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?

Satan is kind of like God's wing man. He makes sure the big guy only hooks up with the finest followers. Read the Book of Job. God's most loyal follower gets rewarded with the death of his family, loss of his fortune, and disease because Satan suspected the follower, Job, had some doubts about their relationship. The book tries to argue that Satan was right by having Job rant against God at the end of the book. The irony is that Job had every right to renounce God at that point. It would be like one lover testing the other lover's resolve by making the relationship abusive. The rationale for still worshiping God is that he 's the only choice you get ... you can choose God, and be abused, or not, and be abused and maybe smitten. Some deal.

Did you not read the ending where Job's life gets better than it ever was before?

Yes I'm sure his replacement family justified the loss of his first family. I'm sure there is no way I would miss my current family if I was provided a fantastic new one, years of shared existence be darned. :P
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2009 7:56:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/26/2009 6:57:45 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
At 5/26/2009 4:37:52 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/18/2009 9:02:37 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/18/2009 7:55:16 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This has always been a point of interest for me.

If Satan exists why doesn't God depose him/remove him/destroy him? Is it because God lacks the ability? Then either God is not omnipotent or Satan has the same amount of power as God. That would make Christianity polytheistic, with two Gods in existence.

On the other hand, if God has the ability to remove Satan from existence, but chooses not to, why worship him?

What's the Christian viewpoint on this?

For the religious non-Christians, how do you explain the evil God/entity in your religion?

Satan is kind of like God's wing man. He makes sure the big guy only hooks up with the finest followers. Read the Book of Job. God's most loyal follower gets rewarded with the death of his family, loss of his fortune, and disease because Satan suspected the follower, Job, had some doubts about their relationship. The book tries to argue that Satan was right by having Job rant against God at the end of the book. The irony is that Job had every right to renounce God at that point. It would be like one lover testing the other lover's resolve by making the relationship abusive. The rationale for still worshiping God is that he 's the only choice you get ... you can choose God, and be abused, or not, and be abused and maybe smitten. Some deal.

Did you not read the ending where Job's life gets better than it ever was before?

I'm not too acquainted with Job's story - could you fill me in?

Cliff notes version: God has a follower named Job. Job is God's favorite follower. Satan sees how devoted Job is to God, and makes a bet with him (I am not making this up). Satan bets God that he can convince Job to doubt in God. God says sure, do whatever you want, he'll never doubt me. Satan says ... "Seriously? Cool." Satan kills Job's family, causes him to develop a disease that covers him in boils, burns down his home, destroys his business and leaves him a tortured penniless beggar. When Job reaches his limit he demands an accounting from God. God actually manifests in front of Job and says "How Dare You!" Job says "Whoops, don't wanna die, I repent." God says, "Good. Here, have a better life for recognizing your mistake." God grants Job relief from his illness, a new family, and a flourishing business. The story never does mention if Job's demand means that Satan actually won a bet against God.

Satan's similarities to Loki and other trickster figures from mythology are purely coincidental. XD
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2009 5:50:33 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/26/2009 3:36:18 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
Ok, Satan is not omnipresent, he has demons to do his bidding.
BUT he can still only tempt us, we always have a choice. However, as satan very well knows, we become the sum of our choices and we are naturally creatures of habit, so as we fall into sin we can very quickly become 'locked' into it.

Can Satan's demons only affect the world intangibly?
No, it depends how much power someone relinquishes to them. I absolutely believe in witchcraft and that satan can counterfeit certain miracles etc..
Other than the Bible you mean? As all those early generations were Jews or the fore-fathers of the Jewish nation then perhaps they did not travel far, or disclose their age, I do not believe they appeared 900 years old in the same way people who now reach 120 appear old.
We also have to take into account the flood, so the only records of any kind that would have survived would be from Noah and would have formed the old testament.
I'm not saying that their beards have to reach their knees, just that if people lived far past 100, there ought to be some record of their lives. Also, were the Jewish the only ones to live that long?
It would appear so, although the Jewish nation only officially began with Abraham.
The Mayan calendar extends into 3,114 BC, which is 5,100 years ago. Surely the Mayans would have some mention of these kinds of things?
We must never rely on omissions as evidence or argument. Think about the amount of other things the Mayans did not mention.. an almost infinite amount.
The problem begins when people at once seize this idea and use it as a loophole when they know very well Who and what they are rejecting.
But the thing is, what of the children who do become so far ingrained in their belief that it is impossible to bring them out of it. We know that the geocentric model of the solar system was very popular. When Copernicus and Galileo dissented, they were scoffed at for the simple reason that the rest of the world believed what their parents told them. Simply telling people accomplished nothing. It took completely empirical proof to convince the world that our solar system is heliocentric. Our natural instinct is to trust our parents. A lot of 'good people' would be sent to hell, simply because they weren't Christian. I know non-Christians who have set up charities, and strive their hardest to better the world.
You, personally, must let God deal with these things and not allow the enemy to keep you 'juggling loopholes'.
My younger brother, for example, is in second grade right now. He was raised a Hindu, but because my grandparents did not play a big part in his life, he didn't get the same upbringing as I did. Because of the Christian majority in his school, he is caught in religious limbo, as he is a Hindu who believes that Jesus was real/heaven exist, in addition to his Hindu beliefs. Being a child, his ideas are very malleable.
It is not simply about what we believe but how we live etc.. do we continually choose to deceive (however subtly) in order to win or dominate for example? are we proud? boastful? these are the things that keep us away from God.
Also we have to face the hard fact that God has turned His face away from India for many many generations simply because they have embraced idols and false religion etc.
In God turning his face from India, do you mean God has given up?
As I said, Gods anger does not last and He is blessing India.
Second-last question: Being omnipotent, why doesn't God pop onto CNN (seriously), and show his own existence? The thing with most atheists (I'm fairly sure), is that we have no empirical evidence for God's existence. The Bible may be God's word, but we don't know about its accuracy. Just because a book calls itself true and tells us that God exists doesn't mean that it is true/God exists. The mindset of most atheists (and quite a few agnostics) is that we need proof. A rigorous proof. Are we sentenced to damnation simply because we wish for the truth to be verifiable?
The Cross of Jesus Christ IS CNN.. For all the world to see He says 'this is how much I love you' It is only when we see Him come in 'power and glory' that we will truly appreciate just what a sacrifice He made for us.
You have it exactly backwards.. you must begin to prove yourself to God, not the other way round.

I have heard that God wants us to have free will. However, in doing so he is sentencing his own creation to hell, simply because he created some people with their mindset.

Finally, why would God create the Forbidden Fruit in Eden?

Your last two questions are closely connected so I'll answer them together.
Without temptation (the choice to do whatever is other to Gods will) how could we truly be free? we would be robots.
In the garden God gave Adam a very clear warning that if he ate the fruit he would die.
It comes down to trusting Gods Word (LIFE) or satans (DEATH)
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
The Cross.. the Cross.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2009 8:23:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
No, it depends how much power someone relinquishes to them. I absolutely believe in witchcraft and that satan can counterfeit certain miracles etc..

How do you know when a miracle is counterfeit?

It would appear so, although the Jewish nation only officially began with Abraham.
Why did God choose the Jews, not another race?

The Mayan calendar extends into 3,114 BC, which is 5,100 years ago. Surely the Mayans would have some mention of these kinds of things?
We must never rely on omissions as evidence or argument. Think about the amount of other things the Mayans did not mention.. an almost infinite amount.
What I'm wondering is why a lot of calendars that were around 4,000-5,000 years ago don't corroborate with Biblical events. I mean, the flood took place in 2,344 BC if we follow the Bible. However, we have calendars and records of times before this. Surely these calendars would all mention a gigantic flood? Even thought the flood occurred, why were so many civilizations untouched?

You, personally, must let God deal with these things and not allow the enemy to keep you 'juggling loopholes'.
It is not simply about what we believe but how we live etc.. do we continually choose to deceive (however subtly) in order to win or dominate for example? are we proud? boastful? these are the things that keep us away from God.
This is my question - can a good-hearted non-Christian who knows about Christianity not go to heaven? For example, we have two people who have both done equal amounts of good in their lives, but only one is Christian. The other one knows about Christianity. Would they both go to heaven?

I cannot easily discard my questions - the same mindset that makes me an atheist makes we want to keep finding answers.

The Cross of Jesus Christ IS CNN.. For all the world to see He says 'this is how much I love you' It is only when we see Him come in 'power and glory' that we will truly appreciate just what a sacrifice He made for us.
You have it exactly backwards.. you must begin to prove yourself to God, not the other way round.

Your last two questions are closely connected so I'll answer them together.
Without temptation (the choice to do whatever is other to Gods will) how could we truly be free? we would be robots.
We would still have free will. If God out and out revealed himself, everybody would not be Christian. Some skeptics would exist. Criminals would still commit crimes. Even if they called themselves Christian unless they truly lived by the Commandments they would be damned on the weight of their crimes. But if God revealed himself, good people of all religions would convert to Christianity and continue to live their good lives. Good Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs would live like they normally do, but as Christians. Sure, there would be fickle people who would convert only to go to Heaven, but God could pass whatever judgment upon them that he would to such people now.

In revealing himself, the only choice God 'removes' is whether or not to be Christian. We could live the rest of our lives as we wish. In this light, why wouldn't God choose to reveal himself?

As always, thank you or your replies - they provide me much insight into Christianity.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2009 1:26:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/27/2009 8:23:51 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
No, it depends how much power someone relinquishes to them. I absolutely believe in witchcraft and that satan can counterfeit certain miracles etc..

How do you know when a miracle is counterfeit?
By the outcome of, reason for, and person who did the "miracle"?
It would appear so, although the Jewish nation only officially began with Abraham.
Why did God choose the Jews, not another race?
God choose Abraham because he was the only "good" person on earth. The "Jews" are all descendants of Abraham.
The Mayan calendar extends into 3,114 BC, which is 5,100 years ago. Surely the Mayans would have some mention of these kinds of things?
We must never rely on omissions as evidence or argument. Think about the amount of other things the Mayans did not mention.. an almost infinite amount.
What I'm wondering is why a lot of calendars that were around 4,000-5,000 years ago don't corroborate with Biblical events. I mean, the flood took place in 2,344 BC if we follow the Bible. However, we have calendars and records of times before this. Surely these calendars would all mention a gigantic flood? Even thought the flood occurred, why were so many civilizations untouched?
Because (I know DATCMOTO disagrees with me) it was most likely a more local flood. Because civilization in that Middle Eastern area had not spread far from the rivers this would mean an easy flood of the entire "world". That also explains why people like the mayans didn't hear about it, because after all, they were continents away. Another explanation could be that the Mayans and other civilizations had heard about the Jews and their religion, but because they were enemies, refused to recognize thier religion.
You, personally, must let God deal with these things and not allow the enemy to keep you 'juggling loopholes'.
It is not simply about what we believe but how we live etc.. do we continually choose to deceive (however subtly) in order to win or dominate for example? are we proud? boastful? these are the things that keep us away from God.
This is my question - can a good-hearted non-Christian who knows about Christianity not go to heaven? For example, we have two people who have both done equal amounts of good in their lives, but only one is Christian. The other one knows about Christianity. Would they both go to heaven?
That is a question you must answer for yourself by reading the Bible and forming your own interpretations.
I cannot easily discard my questions - the same mindset that makes me an atheist makes we want to keep finding answers.
That's what makes it hard for me to be a Christian.
The Cross of Jesus Christ IS CNN.. For all the world to see He says 'this is how much I love you' It is only when we see Him come in 'power and glory' that we will truly appreciate just what a sacrifice He made for us.
You have it exactly backwards.. you must begin to prove yourself to God, not the other way round.


Your last two questions are closely connected so I'll answer them together.
Without temptation (the choice to do whatever is other to Gods will) how could we truly be free? we would be robots.
We would still have free will. If God out and out revealed himself, everybody would not be Christian. Some skeptics would exist. Criminals would still commit crimes. Even if they called themselves Christian unless they truly lived by the Commandments they would be damned on the weight of their crimes. But if God revealed himself, good people of all religions would convert to Christianity and continue to live their good lives. Good Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs would live like they normally do, but as Christians. Sure, there would be fickle people who would convert only to go to Heaven, but God could pass whatever judgment upon them that he would to such people now.

In revealing himself, the only choice God 'removes' is whether or not to be Christian. We could live the rest of our lives as we wish. In this light, why wouldn't God choose to reveal himself?

As always, thank you or your replies - they provide me much insight into Christianity.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler