Total Posts:21|Showing Posts:1-21
Jump to topic:

Faith Healing and Amputees

Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 11:06:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I mentioned this topic moments ago in another thread and would like a wider audience.

Faith healing and divine intervention are deemed responsible for countless "medical miracles" every day. What then of the amputee? There aren't many stories of humans spontaneously regenerating arms or legs (or eyes, breasts, etc.), despite the fact that millions suffer without them all over the world. Surely some of these individuals have faith, so why aren't they healed?

I am truly interested in feedback, evidence, supporting scripture, etc.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Mr.Infidel
Posts: 300
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 11:09:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 11:06:41 AM, Maikuru wrote:
I mentioned this topic moments ago in another thread and would like a wider audience.

Faith healing and divine intervention are deemed responsible for countless "medical miracles" every day. What then of the amputee? There aren't many stories of humans spontaneously regenerating arms or legs (or eyes, breasts, etc.), despite the fact that millions suffer without them all over the world. Surely some of these individuals have faith, so why aren't they healed?

I am truly interested in feedback, evidence, supporting scripture, etc.

It is really all a fraud. Paul Tobin lists some examples of failed faith healing that led to deaths. Moreover, while people may experience temporary healings, it fails to adaquetly explain why they end up gettng sick again.
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values. 

Disarm a liberal. Vote for values.

Opinions of this signature are those of G-d's and any of His affiliates.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 11:10:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It happens all the time, just not the way you perceive it to!

Every day, numerous accidents are avoided with faith and divine intervention that would otherwise have caused the victim to require amputation! In fact... one just happened to me! There's another one! And one on you!

HAVE FAITH.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 11:11:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've been around faith healers my whole life. My uncle, as an extreme example, has a church that practically centers around it.

It doesn't happen, it's a load of crap. Everyone involved pretends or deludes themselves into believing it is actually happening.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 4:23:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 11:10:37 AM, caveat wrote:
It happens all the time, just not the way you perceive it to!

Every day, numerous accidents are avoided with faith and divine intervention that would otherwise have caused the victim to require amputation! In fact... one just happened to me! There's another one! And one on you!

HAVE FAITH.

That is a very good point.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:04:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 11:10:37 AM, caveat wrote:
It happens all the time, just not the way you perceive it to!

Every day, numerous accidents are avoided with faith and divine intervention that would otherwise have caused the victim to require amputation! In fact... one just happened to me! There's another one! And one on you!

HAVE FAITH.:

This is usually the way it works for the God-fearing theists. Whenever somebody survives an accident, they're quick to give God the glory when it very well could have been sheer happenstance (like when 160 people die in a plane crash, and 1 lucky SOB lives). They invoke God for the sole survivor, but attribute the other 159 to accident.

You can't have it both ways, sorry. Either God is directly involved (there goes freewill) or he isn't. Which is it?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:06:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 4:58:17 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
God is not Santa for adults, his miracles are mysterious, he won't just magically grow back someones limb.

The question at hand is why.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:07:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 4:58:17 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
God is not Santa for adults, his miracles are mysterious, he won't just magically grow back someones limb.:

So why does he get the credit for a cancer survivor when it very well could have been due to modern medicine? Because the reason for their survival isn't as obvious as regenerating a limb. So it obscures the real reason why one person survives and another doesn't. And that's why the amputation argument is posited, because it confronts superstition that defies its credibility, that's why.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:11:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:07:52 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 12/20/2011 4:58:17 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
God is not Santa for adults, his miracles are mysterious, he won't just magically grow back someones limb.:

So why does he get the credit for a cancer survivor when it very well could have been due to modern medicine? Because the reason for their survival isn't as obvious as regenerating a limb. So it obscures the real reason why one person survives and another doesn't. And that's why the amputation argument is posited, because it confronts superstition that defies its credibility, that's why.

God can intervene in anything he wants, or he would not be omnipotent. However, if he was to intervene in everything, it would frustrate the Plan of Salvation. There would be no free will at all, because God would control everything.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
bigbob91
Posts: 132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:11:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
God gave man free will to believe in him, curing cancer is his way of letting the cancer survivor who already believed know he was there, magically regenerating limbs would take away the free will of the nonbeliever as they wouldn't have a choice but to believe.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:12:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:11:47 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
God gave man free will to believe in him, curing cancer is his way of letting the cancer survivor who already believed know he was there, magically regenerating limbs would take away the free will of the nonbeliever as they wouldn't have a choice but to believe.

I believe that also....
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:20:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
God can intervene in anything he wants, or he would not be omnipotent. However, if he was to intervene in everything, it would frustrate the Plan of Salvation. There would be no free will at all, because God would control everything.:

That doesn't answer my question, or the OP's for that matter, on when and why he allegedly intervenes.

How do you know the difference between someone who is healed by faith vs someone who's been healed by modern medicine? And why does he save one, but let's the others (insert random number of victims) perish?

This is a rhetorical question, as I know that no one is able to actually answer it (pure speculation).
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:22:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:20:17 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
God can intervene in anything he wants, or he would not be omnipotent. However, if he was to intervene in everything, it would frustrate the Plan of Salvation. There would be no free will at all, because God would control everything.:

That doesn't answer my question, or the OP's for that matter, on when and why he allegedly intervenes.

How do you know the difference between someone who is healed by faith vs someone who's been healed by modern medicine? And why does he save one, but let's the others (insert random number of victims) perish?

This is a rhetorical question, as I know that no one is able to actually answer it (pure speculation).

Speculation is fun; speculation is philosophy. Do you mind if I speculate?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:23:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:11:47 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
God gave man free will to believe in him, curing cancer is his way of letting the cancer survivor who already believed know he was there:

And what of the non-religious cancer survivors? What of the cancer victims who believed they'd be healed, but weren't?

magically regenerating limbs would take away the free will of the nonbeliever as they wouldn't have a choice but to believe.:

Then why did Jesus say that you could tell a mountain to throw itself into the sea and it would, on account of nothing but faith? He stated, unequivocally, that nothing is impossible with... All you have to do is ask. And yet, no regenerated limbs... or mountains chucking themselves into the sea, for that matter.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:25:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Speculation is fun; speculation is philosophy. Do you mind if I speculate?:

Sure. Let's all speculate. I think you choose to believe in this faith as a coping mechanism to make you feel good about the certainty of dying.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:34:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:23:37 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 12/20/2011 5:11:47 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
God gave man free will to believe in him, curing cancer is his way of letting the cancer survivor who already believed know he was there:

And what of the non-religious cancer survivors? What of the cancer victims who believed they'd be healed, but weren't?

I am not discrediting the fact that people can just survive. People can survive or die without Gods intervention. I am not trying to dispute that fact.

Another thing to think about is the fact their mission has ended on earth. Maybe they had faith, but if their mission has ended, they will die. That could also work for non-believers who have a miracle happen, their mission is not ended. Maybe they have one more life to influence?

Think of it like Jenga! If God lets an integral person(piece) die, it can disrupt everything.

magically regenerating limbs would take away the free will of the nonbeliever as they wouldn't have a choice but to believe.:

Then why did Jesus say that you could tell a mountain to throw itself into the sea and it would, on account of nothing but faith? He stated, unequivocally, that nothing is impossible with... All you have to do is ask. And yet, no regenerated limbs... or mountains chucking themselves into the sea, for that matter.

His original statement answers that.

magically regenerating limbs would take away the free will of the nonbeliever as they wouldn't have a choice but to believe.:

Like you said, this is mostly speculation, no definite answer.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 5:35:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:25:53 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Speculation is fun; speculation is philosophy. Do you mind if I speculate?:

Sure. Let's all speculate. I think you choose to believe in this faith as a coping mechanism to make you feel good about the certainty of dying.

What twenty year old even thinks about death?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 6:12:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Seeing that no one is aware of these things, I thank the OP for asking for evidence. I see the youtube video declaring "why has this never happened?" etc.

Here is the documented child known to be an amputee with a regrown limb.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

This is an incredibly well documented healing.

The video is Todd White's Healing Ministry.

He prayed for this amputee to be restored.
Todd White if He was a fake never would have done this. He clearly believed he could heal an amputee.

As with all healers a small portion of faith is required by the recipient and the healer.

Now I pose to the OP that indeed no matter who I cite and what video comes as evidence there will be a thousand naturalist outcries of fakery.

Now I do not attest any specific healer, except the Pope and my own prayers that have healed.
As with any institution fakes will emerge to capitalize.

Most recent we saw pedophiles start daycare centers and such.
Military prison guards raping inmates etc..

No matter what institution there will be criminals that infiltrate it. The less authoritarian regulation the more the criminals will flock to that institution.

In the past, these things were regulated by the Church. Since secularization of religious power, we see that anyone can claim anything and not be held to account by the Church. The secular authorities will not allow it.

On the positive side.
However, there is so many clearly documented healings its absurd to keep denying them.

I want to be clear to everyone.

Please DO NOT respond to this post with FAKE! Yadda Yadda. I am well aware that fakes exist and that every supernatural healer is called a fake. From Pat Robertson to the Pope.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 6:46:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
See placebo, good for headaches and minor back pain, bad for everything else.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2011 6:59:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:35:01 PM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/20/2011 5:25:53 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Speculation is fun; speculation is philosophy. Do you mind if I speculate?:

Sure. Let's all speculate. I think you choose to believe in this faith as a coping mechanism to make you feel good about the certainty of dying.

What twenty year old even thinks about death?

Why not?